left vs right, democrat vs. republican?!?!

?ing my education?ing my education Posts: 313
edited September 2006 in A Moving Train
Do you ever think there will come a time when there are no more "sides"? When will the elected officials actually look out for or makes choices for "the people" as a whole? Will "the people" ever elect someone who might do so? Will there ever be a person who can act for "the people"?

These might seem like silly questions because no one knows for sure (just looking for your thoughts/opinions) but most comments I read on here, people are so determined to prove their "side" is right on any given topic, the best solution for the topic is overlooked (this really goes for our politicians/government). "Solution" might not be the right word but I think you know what I am getting at.

Anyway, just thinking out loud after reading a lot of the threads today.
Driving in my car, smoking a cigar. The only time I'm happy is when I play my guitar.

-from "n.s.u." by Cream
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • That day will come. It will come right after the day people begin to vote on principle, rather than on party. The current political climate is exactly what the American voting public has asked for.
  • I think that people would elect someone like that, but it isn't realistic that one can actually run. You need a lot of money to run for office, and a lot of help, and the two major parties will do what they can to keep you off of the ballot.

    Without a lot of finacial support, even if they get on the ballot, the candidate just becomes another name on the ballot that most people haven't heard of.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • VictoryGinVictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    I don't think there will never be sides. I think many people choose a 'side' or a label because it's easy. Many people choose 'Republican' and just vote down the way they're told. Now I'm not just picking on Republicans, this goes for other labels, or 'sides', as well (well beyond politics). It's all a way to construct your own identity and behaviors in life, and have things make sense easily. "I'm a Republican, I must support the president and the war," for example. Not everyone is like this, thankfully. But many people are.
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
  • That day will come. It will come right after the day people begin to vote on principle, rather than on party. The current political climate is exactly what the American voting public has asked for.

    I completely agree with this. I hope enough people are paying attention. Do you really thing the "current political climate" is causing enough stir in the American people?
    Driving in my car, smoking a cigar. The only time I'm happy is when I play my guitar.

    -from "n.s.u." by Cream
  • I think that people would elect someone like that, but it isn't realistic that one can actually run. You need a lot of money to run for office, and a lot of help, and the two major parties will do what they can to keep you off of the ballot.

    Without a lot of finacial support, even if they get on the ballot, the candidate just becomes another name on the ballot that most people haven't heard of.


    This is one of the points I was getting that seems so frustrating for most Americans. I for one find it most troubling. It definitely keeps potentials from really making it challenging to the two major parties. This, I feel, would bring back some sort of honesty, if there ever really was any.
    Driving in my car, smoking a cigar. The only time I'm happy is when I play my guitar.

    -from "n.s.u." by Cream
  • VictoryGinVictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    I think that people would elect someone like that, but it isn't realistic that one can actually run. You need a lot of money to run for office, and a lot of help, and the two major parties will do what they can to keep you off of the ballot.

    Without a lot of finacial support, even if they get on the ballot, the candidate just becomes another name on the ballot that most people haven't heard of.

    Absolutely! God that system needs changing.
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
  • VictoryGin wrote:
    I don't think there will never be sides. I think many people choose a 'side' or a label because it's easy. Many people choose 'Republican' and just vote down the way they're told. Now I'm not just picking on Republicans, this goes for other labels, or 'sides', as well (well beyond politics). It's all a way to construct your own identity and behaviors in life, and have things make sense easily. "I'm a Republican, I must support the president and the war," for example. Not everyone is like this, thankfully. But many people are.

    I agree VictoryGin. I see my parents and in-laws this way. I am not saying who is right or wrong but at least look at it from both sides.
    Driving in my car, smoking a cigar. The only time I'm happy is when I play my guitar.

    -from "n.s.u." by Cream
  • I completely agree with this. I hope enough people are paying attention.

    They are paying attention.
    Do you really thing the "current political climate" is causing enough stir in the American people?

    No. The current political climate is what they want.
  • Do you ever think there will come a time when there are no more "sides"? When will the elected officials actually look out for or makes choices for "the people" as a whole? Will "the people" ever elect someone who might do so? Will there ever be a person who can act for "the people"?

    These might seem like silly questions because no one knows for sure (just looking for your thoughts/opinions) but most comments I read on here, people are so determined to prove their "side" is right on any given topic, the best solution for the topic is overlooked (this really goes for our politicians/government). "Solution" might not be the right word but I think you know what I am getting at.

    Anyway, just thinking out loud after reading a lot of the threads today.
    How much money is made in this country because of elec1t0ions?
    That's why there will always be two sides swinging it out.
    Anger is a gift
  • Do you ever think there will come a time when there are no more "sides"? When will the elected officials actually look out for or makes choices for "the people" as a whole? Will "the people" ever elect someone who might do so? Will there ever be a person who can act for "the people"?

    These might seem like silly questions because no one knows for sure (just looking for your thoughts/opinions) but most comments I read on here, people are so determined to prove their "side" is right on any given topic, the best solution for the topic is overlooked (this really goes for our politicians/government). "Solution" might not be the right word but I think you know what I am getting at.

    Anyway, just thinking out loud after reading a lot of the threads today.
    How much money is made in this country because of elec1t0ions?
    That's why there will always be two sides swinging it out.
    Anger is a gift
  • How much money is made in this country because of elec1t0ions?

    Annual tax revenues are roughly $1,000,000,000,000. And that's just federal. So to answer your question....a lot.
  • Do you ever think there will come a time when there are no more "sides"? When will the elected officials actually look out for or makes choices for "the people" as a whole? Will "the people" ever elect someone who might do so? Will there ever be a person who can act for "the people"?

    These might seem like silly questions because no one knows for sure (just looking for your thoughts/opinions) but most comments I read on here, people are so determined to prove their "side" is right on any given topic, the best solution for the topic is overlooked (this really goes for our politicians/government). "Solution" might not be the right word but I think you know what I am getting at.

    Anyway, just thinking out loud after reading a lot of the threads today.

    I think associating democrats with the left and republicans with the right is a mistake. There's a left-right continuum, and I think both democrats and republicans would fall more towards the right (depending on how it's defined).

    But the more accurate continuum would be rich-poor, or more specifically corporate-individual. Both democrats and republicans are way over on the corporate/rich side. On major issues like war, economics, healthcare, etc. they're basically the same. They both support the wishes of rich investors on these matters. That's why the war passed without fail, that's why it's still going on, that's why the Patriot Act passed with no problems, that's why NAFTA was passed with no problems, etc.
  • Saturnal wrote:
    I think associating democrats with the left and republicans with the right is a mistake. There's a left-right continuum, and I think both democrats and republicans would fall more towards the right (depending on how it's defined).

    I agree with your point that putting Repubs/Demos on ends of a spectrum is pretty silly. However, I see both parties on the left, rather than on the right.
    But the more accurate continuum would be rich-poor

    Slow down. Rich/poor does not a political spectrum make. There are no defining political principles held by either side of that mix. It's like suggesting that a more accurate continuum would be white/black. It's blatant generalizing.
    or more specifically corporate-individual.

    That's one side of a penny, my friend.
    On major issues like war, economics, healthcare, etc. they're basically the same. They both support the wishes of rich investors on these matters. That's why the war passed without fail, that's why it's still going on, that's why the Patriot Act passed with no problems, that's why NAFTA was passed with no problems, etc.

    Yep.
  • I agree with your point that putting Repubs/Demos on ends of a spectrum is pretty silly. However, I see both parties on the left, rather than on the right.



    Slow down. Rich/poor does not a political spectrum make. There are no defining political principles held by either side of that mix. It's like suggesting that a more accurate continuum would be white/black. It's blatant generalizing.



    That's one side of a penny, my friend.



    Yep.

    I'm not your friend, ya know-it-all.
  • Saturnal wrote:
    I'm not your friend, ya know-it-all.

    Touche.....
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    I think the outlook is bleak. I have NEVER seen the nation as divided as it is today... and I was around during Viet Nam. Even back then, it wasn't by political party, but more along class lines or ideological (pro-War/anti-War) camps. Viet Nam was seen as a War waged by our collective government and fought by our poorest young men.
    Today... I see the 'dumbing' effect seeping into the political arena. This didn't exist before because politics has always been complicated and multi-faceted and not necessarily what it seems to be. You had to (and still have to) look beyond what is written and what is said to find out the truth of what it is. It is real easy today to flip it to the Cable station that tells you what things are. Too many people accept the world inside that box as reality and truth... it isn't. The lines between journalism and entertainment have been blurred.
    This leads us back to the dumbing effect. People don't understand politics... too complex and icky for many. But people understand sports. So, we pick a team, Republican or Democrat... get a Team Name, Conservatives or Liberals... get a Team color, Red or Blue... we even get a Team mascot, Elephant or Donkey. Americans understand this. Once we pick a team... the opposition is the enemy and we MUST WIN... regardless of anything else.

    **As a side note... if you go to a ball game at your local stadium before the All-Star Game... and the ushers pass out ballots so you can pick who you think should represent the All-Stars... how many ballots do you think pick every player on the home team? Even the catcher who is batting .175 or the outfielder who has been on the DL since June 1st. Granted, a lot of them are little kids, but, there are adults who do this, too.**

    This is why you see the real hatred in the words on this board... hear the hatred in the voices on talk radio... that hatred is not directed to the prick that is planning the next attack against America... it is directed towards fellow Americans!!! It's demonizing other Americans for having a differing opinion on a specific issue... the terms "Liberal" or "Conservative" are spoken with hate... like the terms, "Gook" or "Jap" or "Sand Nigger". They cease becoming human and more like things.
    This is how the political parties want it. Dumb votes count the same as smart votes and can cancel them out. Until american voters come to the understanding that we are all Americans and should drop the crap that is force fed us by political party strategists and pundits whose wages depends upon them choosing extreme sides... and cast our ballots based upon what WE believe is the best for our country... not for our Team... then, this moronic, childish division of America will continue.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    The parties ruin everything. I'd like to see someone run on their own beliefs and morals and forget the parties.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Cosmo wrote:
    I think the outlook is bleak. I have NEVER seen the nation as divided as it is today... and I was around during Viet Nam. Even back then, it wasn't by political party, but more along class lines or ideological (pro-War/anti-War) camps. Viet Nam was seen as a War waged by our collective government and fought by our poorest young men.
    Today... I see the 'dumbing' effect seeping into the political arena. This didn't exist before because politics has always been complicated and multi-faceted and not necessarily what it seems to be. You had to (and still have to) look beyond what is written and what is said to find out the truth of what it is. It is real easy today to flip it to the Cable station that tells you what things are. Too many people accept the world inside that box as reality and truth... it isn't. The lines between journalism and entertainment have been blurred.
    This leads us back to the dumbing effect. People don't understand politics... too complex and icky for many. But people understand sports. So, we pick a team, Republican or Democrat... get a Team Name, Conservatives or Liberals... get a Team color, Red or Blue... we even get a Team mascot, Elephant or Donkey. Americans understand this. Once we pick a team... the opposition is the enemy and we MUST WIN... regardless of anything else.

    **As a side note... if you go to a ball game at your local stadium before the All-Star Game... and the ushers pass out ballots so you can pick who you think should represent the All-Stars... how many ballots do you think pick every player on the home team? Even the catcher who is batting .175 or the outfielder who has been on the DL since June 1st. Granted, a lot of them are little kids, but, there are adults who do this, too.**

    This is why you see the real hatred in the words on this board... hear the hatred in the voices on talk radio... that hatred is not directed to the prick that is planning the next attack against America... it is directed towards fellow Americans!!! It's demonizing other Americans for having a differing opinion on a specific issue... the terms "Liberal" or "Conservative" are spoken with hate... like the terms, "Gook" or "Jap" or "Sand Nigger". They cease becoming human and more like things.
    This is how the political parties want it. Dumb votes count the same as smart votes and can cancel them out. Until american voters come to the understanding that we are all Americans and should drop the crap that is force fed us by political party strategists and pundits whose wages depends upon them choosing extreme sides... and cast our ballots based upon what WE believe is the best for our country... not for our Team... then, this moronic, childish division of America will continue.

    Bravo.
  • know1 wrote:
    The parties ruin everything. I'd like to see someone run on their own beliefs and morals and forget the parties.

    Actually, the people who vote for the parties "ruin everything".
  • Cosmo wrote:
    I think the outlook is bleak. I have NEVER seen the nation as divided as it is today... and I was around during Viet Nam. Even back then, it wasn't by political party, but more along class lines or ideological (pro-War/anti-War) camps. Viet Nam was seen as a War waged by our collective government and fought by our poorest young men.
    Today... I see the 'dumbing' effect seeping into the political arena. This didn't exist before because politics has always been complicated and multi-faceted and not necessarily what it seems to be. You had to (and still have to) look beyond what is written and what is said to find out the truth of what it is. It is real easy today to flip it to the Cable station that tells you what things are. Too many people accept the world inside that box as reality and truth... it isn't. The lines between journalism and entertainment have been blurred.
    This leads us back to the dumbing effect. People don't understand politics... too complex and icky for many. But people understand sports. So, we pick a team, Republican or Democrat... get a Team Name, Conservatives or Liberals... get a Team color, Red or Blue... we even get a Team mascot, Elephant or Donkey. Americans understand this. Once we pick a team... the opposition is the enemy and we MUST WIN... regardless of anything else.

    **As a side note... if you go to a ball game at your local stadium before the All-Star Game... and the ushers pass out ballots so you can pick who you think should represent the All-Stars... how many ballots do you think pick every player on the home team? Even the catcher who is batting .175 or the outfielder who has been on the DL since June 1st. Granted, a lot of them are little kids, but, there are adults who do this, too.**

    This is why you see the real hatred in the words on this board... hear the hatred in the voices on talk radio... that hatred is not directed to the prick that is planning the next attack against America... it is directed towards fellow Americans!!! It's demonizing other Americans for having a differing opinion on a specific issue... the terms "Liberal" or "Conservative" are spoken with hate... like the terms, "Gook" or "Jap" or "Sand Nigger". They cease becoming human and more like things.
    This is how the political parties want it. Dumb votes count the same as smart votes and can cancel them out. Until american voters come to the understanding that we are all Americans and should drop the crap that is force fed us by political party strategists and pundits whose wages depends upon them choosing extreme sides... and cast our ballots based upon what WE believe is the best for our country... not for our Team... then, this moronic, childish division of America will continue.


    Thank you for that Cosmo.
    Driving in my car, smoking a cigar. The only time I'm happy is when I play my guitar.

    -from "n.s.u." by Cream
  • know1 wrote:
    The parties ruin everything. I'd like to see someone run on their own beliefs and morals and forget the parties.

    Beliefs and morals are nice and all, but they can't pay for attack ads, campaign staff, pollsters, lawn signs, etc. As long as it takes literally millions upon millions of dollars to run for president, and hundreds of thousands to run for the Senate/House of Representatives, the only people who will be able to run for higher office will be billionaires and the party endorsed-candidates. Senator Clinton raised over $400,000 going into a primary campaign in which she ended up getting over 80% of the vote! Of course the money was raised more for 2008, but that's exactly the point. I don't want to bag too much on capitalism, but it's had a huge influence on our political system, both in campaigning and governing, and it's been mostly negative.
    "Of course it hurts. You're getting fucked by an elephant."
  • Actually, the people who vote for the parties "ruin everything".

    Should the people not vote at all or is that just as bad as voting for "the lesser evil"?
    Driving in my car, smoking a cigar. The only time I'm happy is when I play my guitar.

    -from "n.s.u." by Cream
  • http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=215084

    I've been saying this for a while now
  • http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=215084

    I've been saying this for a while now


    Sorry about that. I didn't see that thread. Seems few people want to discuss it though. I guess it's easier to just take sides and let the explicits fly! :)
    Driving in my car, smoking a cigar. The only time I'm happy is when I play my guitar.

    -from "n.s.u." by Cream
  • Sorry about that. I didn't see that thread. Seems few people want to discuss it though. I guess it's easier to just take sides and let the explicits fly! :)


    No dude it's fine. I would rather have the questions out there than me taking all the credit for it. No kidding about people just taking sides and not discussing anything. It's pretty ridiculous.
  • Should the people not vote at all or is that just as bad as voting for "the lesser evil"?

    It's a tough, tough question. Personally, I refuse to vote against something by voting for something else. It's why I've always thought that US ballots should include a deduction vote or a "none of the above" option. As the system stands today, I abstain from most votes. For example, I did not vote for the senatorial race in the last election because neither candidate earned my vote, even though I disliked one of the candidates more than the other. Furthermore, I will almost never vote for a major party candidate.

    But in all honesty such actions accomplish little on their own. My only hope is that more people will vote as I do -- on principle alone. "Republican" and "democrat" are no longer indicitive of any system of principles, and anti-principle party line is how the vast majority of people vote. I could care less at this point what principles people choose when they vote. I just wish it would enter into their minds that a political figure is only defined by their principles.
  • JeanwahJeanwah Posts: 6,363
    Cosmo wrote:
    I think the outlook is bleak. I have NEVER seen the nation as divided as it is today... and I was around during Viet Nam. Even back then, it wasn't by political party, but more along class lines or ideological (pro-War/anti-War) camps. Viet Nam was seen as a War waged by our collective government and fought by our poorest young men.
    Today... I see the 'dumbing' effect seeping into the political arena. This didn't exist before because politics has always been complicated and multi-faceted and not necessarily what it seems to be. You had to (and still have to) look beyond what is written and what is said to find out the truth of what it is. It is real easy today to flip it to the Cable station that tells you what things are. Too many people accept the world inside that box as reality and truth... it isn't. The lines between journalism and entertainment have been blurred.
    This leads us back to the dumbing effect. People don't understand politics... too complex and icky for many. But people understand sports. So, we pick a team, Republican or Democrat... get a Team Name, Conservatives or Liberals... get a Team color, Red or Blue... we even get a Team mascot, Elephant or Donkey. Americans understand this. Once we pick a team... the opposition is the enemy and we MUST WIN... regardless of anything else.

    **As a side note... if you go to a ball game at your local stadium before the All-Star Game... and the ushers pass out ballots so you can pick who you think should represent the All-Stars... how many ballots do you think pick every player on the home team? Even the catcher who is batting .175 or the outfielder who has been on the DL since June 1st. Granted, a lot of them are little kids, but, there are adults who do this, too.**

    This is why you see the real hatred in the words on this board... hear the hatred in the voices on talk radio... that hatred is not directed to the prick that is planning the next attack against America... it is directed towards fellow Americans!!! It's demonizing other Americans for having a differing opinion on a specific issue... the terms "Liberal" or "Conservative" are spoken with hate... like the terms, "Gook" or "Jap" or "Sand Nigger". They cease becoming human and more like things.
    This is how the political parties want it. Dumb votes count the same as smart votes and can cancel them out. Until american voters come to the understanding that we are all Americans and should drop the crap that is force fed us by political party strategists and pundits whose wages depends upon them choosing extreme sides... and cast our ballots based upon what WE believe is the best for our country... not for our Team... then, this moronic, childish division of America will continue.

    Great post. I see way too many people who are unable to open their minds altogether about anything, and I think that has a lot to do with what your post said. People are force-fed everthing they see, and they forget they have the power to think for themselves.
  • Jeanwah wrote:
    they forget they have the power to think for themselves.

    They forget because that's what we're teaching them. Thinking for yourself carries with it a measure of accountability and our society is at war with accountability.
  • It's a tough, tough question. Personally, I refuse to vote against something by voting for something else. It's why I've always thought that US ballots should include a deduction vote or a "none of the above" option. As the system stands today, I abstain from most votes. For example, I did not vote for the senatorial race in the last election because neither candidate earned my vote, even though I disliked one of the candidates more than the other. Furthermore, I will almost never vote for a major party candidate.

    But in all honesty such actions accomplish little on their own. My only hope is that more people will vote as I do -- on principle alone. "Republican" and "democrat" are no longer indicitive of any system of principles, and anti-principle party line is how the vast majority of people vote. I could care less at this point what principles people choose when they vote. I just wish it would enter into their minds that a political figure is only defined by their principles.

    Thanks for your opinion farfromglorified. I agree with what you are saying. It is hard for me to bring myself to vote "just to vote".

    Thanks again.
    Driving in my car, smoking a cigar. The only time I'm happy is when I play my guitar.

    -from "n.s.u." by Cream
  • Thanks for your opinion farfromglorified. I agree with what you are saying. It is hard for me to bring myself to vote "just to vote".

    Thanks again.

    You're quite welcome. And thanks for asking some very valid questions and for bringing up a topic that is severely underrated in importance.
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