US conducting raids into Syria.

sponger

Collin wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7692411.stm

These filthy liars even wounded a woman so it'd look real...

You'd think that Syria while wanting to gain international sympathy for this attack would've made the severity of the situation much clearer by making that woman's wounds at least somewhat invisible.

Maybe Syrians don't want to shock the world with graphic images? Perhaps.

I thought we were talking about dead children. Now it's a woman underneath a blanket?

sponger

PJ_Saluki wrote:

What about the foreign policy conduct of the Bush II administration would lead you to believe they're so damned trustworthy?

Questions like these are great. Just put those words right into my mouth why don't you...

Can I try that too?

What about the foriegn policy conduct of the Syrian government would lead you to believe that they're damned trustworthy?

Commy

sponger wrote:

Questions like these are great. Just put those words right into my mouth why don't you...

Can I try that too?

What about the foriegn policy conduct of the Syrian government would lead you to believe that they're damned trustworthy?

your missing the point.

the AP interviewed the people involved. that's direct journalism. its not about what the US gov't said or what the Syrian gov't said, its about what the people involved have said.

PJ_Saluki

Commy wrote:

your missing the point.

the AP interviewed the people involved. that's direct journalism. its not about what the US gov't said or what the Syrian gov't said, its about what the people involved have said.

Beat me to it.

sponger

Commy wrote:

your missing the point.

the AP interviewed the people involved. that's direct journalism. its not about what the US gov't said or what the Syrian gov't said, its about what the people involved have said.

And like I mentioned earlier, it's not unreasonable to consider that people will lie to admonish the actions of the west.

In fact, isn't the Syrian government a military authoritarian style government? Sorta like a dictatorship? You don't think that in that type of a societal structure, witnesses can often be coaxed by their own government?

Commy

sponger wrote:

And like I mentioned earlier, it's not unreasonable to consider that people will lie to admonish the actions of the west.

In fact, isn't the Syrian government a military authoritarian style government? Sorta like a dictatorship? You don't think that in that type of a societal structure, witnesses can often be coaxed by their own government?

I think you are the only one who isn't accepting that the US conducted a raid into Syria. The US gov't has even admitted to the raid...."Washington initially refused to confirm or deny reports of the attack but, later, an official told Reuters: "It was a successful operation. He [Ghadiya] is believed to be dead. He had knowledge of many of the so-called 'rat lines' or smuggling routes."

sponger

Commy wrote:

I think you are the only one who isn't accepting that the US conducted a raid into Syria.

I never even came close to saying that.

Commy

sponger wrote:

I never even came close to saying that.

that's the issue though, from my perspective.

If the US is allowed to violate international law, what does that mean for the rest of the world?

sponger

Commy wrote:

that's the issue though, from my perspective.

If the US is allowed to violate international law, what does that mean for the rest of the world?

If it was really a simple matter of violating international law, all that hubub about innocent civilians would be irrelevant.

Commy

sponger wrote:

If it was really a simple matter of violating international law, all that hubub about innocent civilians would be irrelevant.

That's something else. Violating international law is one thing, killing innocent civilians in the process puts it in another category-if in fact 8 innocent civilians were killed.

Sometimes the human rights groups exaggerate their claims to gain attention for a cause...but I don't think that is the case here. 8 is too many...but if you were trying to sensationalize your cause the number would be much higher. based on witness testimony (what else do you have to go on?) it seems that a very serious crime has been committed.

sponger

Commy wrote:

That's something else. Violating international law is one thing, killing innocent civilians in the process puts it in another category-if in fact 8 innocent civilians were killed.

Sometimes the human rights groups exaggerate their claims to gain attention for a cause...but I don't think that is the case here. 8 is too many...but if you were trying to sensationalize your cause the number would be much higher. based on witness testimony (what else do you have to go on?) it seems that a very serious crime has been committed.

You don't find it suspicious that by the time the news story was filmed, the bodies had already been buried? How about the fact that we can't even see any of the injuries belonging to that woman underneath the blanket?

PJ_Saluki

sponger wrote:

You don't find it suspicious that by the time the news story was filmed, the bodies had already been buried?

Not at all. Muslims are supposed to be buried as close to immediately as possible.

sponger wrote:

How about the fact that we can't even see any of the injuries belonging to that woman underneath the blanket?

Do you really believe that in a culture where women's faces are covered they would want men who weren't relatives to look at the uncovered bodies of their women?

Commy

sponger wrote:

You don't find it suspicious that by the time the news story was filmed, the bodies had already been buried? How about the fact that we can't even see any of the injuries belonging to that woman underneath the blanket?

well, this happened in Syria. I'm pretty sure the AP doesn't have a Syrian correspondent. It may take time to get people to the scene, especially considering this was a covert op.

also when the US had the botched operation in Somalia, Mogadishu, the full extent of the damage was never revealed, as the bodies were immediately buried...sometimes within hours of being killed. estimates are 30,000 and up, civilian casualties, but no one knows. the people of Somalia had the bodies buried within hours.

and, why would the US bother to count anyway? that's a typical move by an empire. you never count the victims. and that's intentional. look at Iraq. conservatives (their term) are arguing the death toll-as if its ok if only hundreds of thousands of people were killed as opposed to millions. and even conservative estimates are over 1 million at this point...but no one knows exactly. We know exactly, down to the individual, how many people were killed on 9/11, but counting enemy casualties? according to the US it may as well be 0. They got their man, according to them, and that's all that matters.

So no I don't find it suspicious at all that we don't have full clear high res shots of the casualties.

fuck

atleast this thread was able to prove that sponger is an idiot.

sponger

Commy wrote:

well, this happened in Syria. I'm pretty sure the AP doesn't have a Syrian correspondent. It may take time to get people to the scene, especially considering this was a covert op.

The Syrian government said it happened over the weekend. The story broke on Monday. That's not more than 2-3 days tops.

You'd think that if Syria wanted to make a case to the world concerning the gruesome reality of civilian deaths, they would've allowed the bodies to be viewed for press footage.

also when the US had the botched operation in Somalia, Mogadishu, the full extent of the damage was never revealed, as the bodies were immediately buried...sometimes within hours of being killed. estimates are 30,000 and up, civilian casualties, but no one knows. the people of Somalia had the bodies buried within hours.

This is a case of an overwhelming number of bodies needing to be buried quickly due to their sheer size in number. Not to mention, they were more concerned about parading dead american soldiers on the streets for public view than garnering sympathy from the UN.

and, why would the US bother to count anyway? that's a typical move by an empire. you never count the victims. and that's intentional. look at Iraq. conservatives (their term) are arguing the death toll-as if its ok if only hundreds of thousands of people were killed as opposed to millions. and even conservative estimates are over 1 million at this point...but no one knows exactly. We know exactly, down to the individual, how many people were killed on 9/11, but counting enemy casualties? according to the US it may as well be 0. They got their man, according to them, and that's all that matters.

You're shifting the focus away from the point. The point is that the Syrian government's case for 8 civilian deaths is hardly substantiated.

So no I don't find it suspicious at all that we don't have full clear high res shots of the casualties.

Of course you don't find it suspicous. It seems you don't even know how to begin interpreting the circumstances.

sponger

_outlaw wrote:

atleast this thread was able to prove that sponger is an idiot.

I somehow doubt that you are in any way familiar with the concept of proving or disproving an argument.

Commy

sponger wrote:

The Syrian government said it happened over the weekend. The story broke on Monday. That's not more than 2-3 days tops.

I believe the tradition is to bury the deceased as quickly as possible. 2-3 days is almost standard in our society. In theirs I believe it is closer to 2-3 hours.

You'd think that if Syria wanted to make a case to the world concerning the gruesome reality of civilian deaths, they would've allowed the bodies to be viewed for press footage.

We can only speculate here...Maybe they respect the deceased, maybe they thought it was obvious what happened, maybe blah...speculation leads nowhere.

This is a case of an overwhelming number of bodies needing to be buried quickly due to their sheer size in number. Not to mention, they were more concerned about parading dead american soldiers on the streets for public view than garnering sympathy from the UN.

the most advanced military in the world launched a major offensive in the middle of a populated city, killing tens of thousands with only dozens of casualties sustained.

The people were defending themselves...and granted it was a terrible situation under Aidid...he withheld food as a political tool...was brutal that's not the point. The US launched a major offensive-and no one knows the extent of that damage. how many were killed? how much damage was done to the city? how long will it take to recover? and so on...these questions have no answers because, again, empires don't count their victims.

You're shifting the focus away from the point. The point is that the Syrian government's case for 8 civilian deaths is hardly substantiated.

I haven't accepted either official story. but I do believe innocent people were killed in this cross-border attack. that's an opinion backed up by the testimony of the people involved.

what information has led you to your opinion?

Of course you don't find it suspicous. It seems you don't even know how to begin interpreting the circumstances.

I try to get as much information about the issue as I can and then make up my own mind. that is how I interpret circumstances. so far, the information presented has been biased-official stories from either gov't-and that of the people directly involved. we know from official accounts that the raid did happen, both sides agree to that...and we know from the people directly involved that innocent people have died. the interpretation seems obvious.

sponger

Commy wrote:

I believe the tradition is to bury the deceased as quickly as possible. 2-3 days is almost standard in our society. In theirs I believe it is closer to 2-3 hours.

Funeral services within 2-3 days of the death? What part of the country do you live in?

We can only speculate here...Maybe they respect the deceased, maybe they thought it was obvious what happened, maybe blah...speculation leads nowhere.

Yes, I'm sure the Syrian government has all the respect in the world for their deceased citizens. lol.

the most advanced military in the world launched a major offensive in the middle of a populated city, killing tens of thousands with only dozens of casualties sustained.

The people were defending themselves...and granted it was a terrible situation under Aidid...he withheld food as a political tool...was brutal that's not the point. The US launched a major offensive-and no one knows the extent of that damage. how many were killed? how much damage was done to the city? how long will it take to recover? and so on...these questions have no answers because, again, empires don't count their victims.

Is that part II of your irrelevant story? Do you really believe that small countries count bodies while big one don't? Do you enjoy being so obviously biased? You don't seem to make any effort to hide it.

No one knows the extent of the damage, but you're sure that tens of thousands were killed? I guess that's a good round number as any, right?

I haven't accepted either official story. but do I believe innocent people were killed in this cross-border attack. that's an opinion backed up by the testimony of the people involved.

what information has led you to your opnion?

It's eye-witness testimony from Syrian residents who would most likely be tortured if they said anything negative about Syria to news reporters. If you feel comfortable with using that as a credible source, then all power to you.

I get as much information about the issue as I can and make up my own mind. that is how I interpret circumstances. so far, the information presented has been biased-official stories from either gov't-and that of the people directly involved. we know from official accounts that the raid did happen, both sides agree to that...and we know from the people directly involved that innocent people have died. the interpretation seems fairly obvious to me.

Actually, what you do is remind yourself that you hate empires and that the US is evil, and then you go from there.

Commy

sponger wrote:

Funeral services within 2-3 days of the death? What part of the country do you live in?

actually I don't know anything about funeral services...or how long it takes to bury someone in the US. but I live in Idaho, we are a few decades behind the rest of the world.

Yes, I'm sure the Syrian government has all the respect in the world for their deceased citizens. lol.

the Syrian gov't didn't bury these people, the people of the town that was attacked did. probably in a matter of hours.

Is that part II of your irrelevant story? Do you really believe that small countries count bodies while big one don't? Do you enjoy being so obviously biased? You don't seem to make any effort to hide it.

No one knows the extent of the damage, but you're sure that tens of thousands were killed? I guess that's a good round number as any, right?

yes, according to those that do care-like human rights groups and people that went in to clean up. that is the estimate. has nothing to do with a bias. we get our information from our society-they get theirs from theirs, and its no secret that we don't count the enemy casualties. its not a conspiracy or bias, its just the way it is.

It's eye-witness testimony from Syrian residents who would most likely be tortured if they said anything negative about Syria to news reporters. If you feel comfortable with using that as a credible source, then all power to you.

So, let me get this right. you think the Syrian gov't killed 8 people and then blamed the US gov't? and then threatened the residents of the town with torture if they didn't go along with the 'story'? is that about right?

Actually, what you do is remind yourself that you hate empires and that the US is evil, and then you go from there.

according to you. again-I get as much information as I can about an issue and make up my own mind.

I need a smoke, and some sleep...get back to you later Sponger.

peace.

sponger

Commy wrote:

actually I don't know anything about funeral services...or how long it takes to bury someone in the US. but I live in Idaho, we are a few decades behind the rest of the world.

The truth is that you don't know anything specific at all when it comes to funeral customs in any culture of any part of the world.

the Syrian gov't didn't bury these people, the people of the town that was attacked did. probably in a matter of hours.

Right...after these innocent people were allegedly killed by US troops in what became a major international incident, the Syrian government maintained a hands-off role as far as treatment of the bodies go.

yes, according to those that do care-like human rights groups and people that went in to clean up. that is the estimate. has nothing to do with a bias. we get our information from our society-they get theirs from theirs, and its no secret that we don't count the enemy casualties. its not a conspiracy or bias, its just the way it is.

Given the fact that you have a pattern of making mostly fictional statements and passing them off as well-constructed opinion, it's hard for me to give you the benefit of the doubt.

So, let me get this right. you think the Syrian gov't killed 8 people and then blamed the US gov't? and then threatened the residents of the town with torture if they didn't go along with the 'story'? is that about right?

No, that is not what I think, and nothing I've said even remotely points to that. That's the second time in this thread that I've had to defend myself from your putting words in my mouth.

according to you. again-I get as much information as I can about an issue and make up my own mind.

I need a smoke, and some sleep...get back to you later Sponger.

peace.

What is very clear is that in spite of however much distrust you have for big governments, that distrust doesn't keep you from spouting major inconsistencies and baseless assertions of your own.