It will be as soon as people get fed up enough to push their fears and anxieties aside and stand up for what they believe in and not keep finding excuses for things they don't.
this is America, that won't happen, marketing techniques alone will keep the majority, or even a large enough minority from taking action. Talk will happen, but action, I currently have no faith in my fellow citizens on this.
We elected and re-elected Bush/Cheney, they have dismantled clean air, the dollar, the middle class, the constitution, the military, widened the divide between right and left, they've brought evangelicals closer to their goal of Armageddon, we crap on our vets still, and their are far worse things I'm sure I haven't mentioned, and yet, we for the most part, go through our lives without issue.
by the time people stand up, it'll be too late...yet, I'm still optimistic that somehow, not sure how, we can turn it around.
"Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)
We shall see? What does that have to do with pushing your candidate towards taking on the stances we all would feel more comfortable with on the left? That sounds like the same 'I'm powerless, someone do it for me' attitude you said was the problem. I'd like to see Obama supporters vocalizing these problems and talking about the things they see wrong with Obama's platform.
they do, and I do, I'm saying I'm confident he will be the next president, and with all we've discussed we'll see how it turns out, that doesn't mean sit back and do nothing now, doesn't mean he get's a free ride, that eveyone shouldn't stand up and vocalize, shouldn't challenge him on issues and stances.
The start of this was that Obama needs to be protested against, and somehow in the middle that the Dems are failures, I love all this attention they get, every Republican should get such attention. So easy to pile on Dem's, change out Dems for whatever you want, you will only lose ground, Guarranteed. You need to be able to move people to your cause, stance, ideas, not force them down their throats, unless you are in a place of power, like the conservatives have had.
You can't think of any better way to get a seat at the table? Maybe look at each situation for what it is, and partner where their is common ground, or at least ground that is close enough that you can work on it.
anyway, not telling anyone to vote for Obama, or anyone else, and I agree he need so be challenged on issues, but help get rid of the big problem people, and you will find that the lesser evils are more likely to become allies and the evil to go away.
"Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)
This just sounds like the same rhetoric I heard from the Republicans. And guess what, they aren't bad guys, either. They think this is the best way to go just like you do. To me, it's just politicing. Getting your supporters to buy another reason for why we need to keep staying there. The Dems will probably be much like the Reps...they will keep morphing their excuse for the continued occupation to another new reason when the old one falls flat. And just like the Reps, I don't think you guys will get fed up and start speaking out....I think you'll do just like the Bushies on this board did then, you'll go along with whatever new excuse they put out there because they are pros at selling this shit and this board is proof of that. So many anti Iraq war people are now the quickest here to tell everyone why we need to stay there. 'Bring them home now!' has been put in the closet and replaced with 'Obama 08!'. I still think it's bullshit and is only more of the same old excuses fed to you to line the pockets of war profiteers and defense contractors(who just happen to be donating even more to the Dems this year than McCain)
good luck with that sort of thinking.
First, I'm not a democrat. Second, I'm confident I knew more about this situation before it happened before most, and have understood, not only why we didn't want to go into Iraq, but why they wanted to go into Iraq. So as always, I feel I'll have a good outlook regardless he is in charge, what decisions are in place.
As for changing bring them home with Obama '08, that's rhetoric bs, there was never a strong anti-war movement, again 70% poll, maybe 5% speaking out, if you had 70%, then there wouldn't be an issue. No sloagan was replaced, because many of those you are talking about, are like you, and not support any major candidate. So they just got quiet, or drowned out, but Obama is not the replacement, he is himself.
"Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)
His ability to bullshit rivals any politician I've seen. But yes, people have rallied behind people who were full of shit before. People rallied behind Bush. People ae now so sick of Bush they are rallying behind the Dems. They people need to wise up.
Bush never rallied others that didn't already want what he wanted. Bush was having rallies with only people who signed agreements or pledges to him, no dissenting voices in the crowd. Bush was living a fantasy, because he was sheltered. You go ahead and keep trying to use rhetoric to tie Bush and Obama together, this is the exact kind of talk that keeps alternate ideas from ever gaining any headway, it's turns people off before they get a chance to her the message.
"Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)
Congress is powerless, except to hold the government hostage and allow nothing to happen but for bush to veto everything. Then they will be blamed, not the republicans. it's not responsible to do so. a simple majority in the Senate means almost nothing. they aren't powerless, but they aren't in a place of power either.
Who is in power and able to get things done then? The president has all the power? No checks and balances. I bet some of you will continue to use the Bush scapegoat to excuse things well into Obama's presidency. It just seems a bit hypocritical. It's not responsible to keep throwing money into a mess that we only keep making worse. To me, it is responsible to end this war and put real focus on wrapping it up and getting out. UN peacekeeping troops will come in and further aid the Iraqi once we leave.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
you have got to be kidding? the anti-war movement if far more of a failure that the democratic party. Any other political party other than the democratic and republican is an utter failure. You blame Democrats for the weaknesses of the American people. Sorry, but if the Dem's fought the Patriot Act as one and to the last, they would have been replaced in 2004. Same with the war. It's one thing for a few standing up, but the entire party would have been a threat, and Rove and ther republicans would have BBQ their asses in the elections.
The anti-war movement is a failure because of people like Obama and his supporters that won't push hard enough. That is your opinion that the people would replace the Dems over those issues...especially when polls show they oppose those issues. The American people keep voting in people that don't do much for them every election cycle. I really don't see how it would be different here if congress actually did what the public is saying they should. That makes no sense. It's like saying 'Oh shit! Those bastards did what we wanted them to! Get their asses outta there!' This is just more politicing based on opinions that don't make sense.
Now that leads us to a major problem in politics. For the most part, no politician will stand up and put their seat on the line by taking a moral or eithical stand. They are not willing to fight for what is right if it means hurting their re-election chances. This has lead to the weakness of the Dem party, and the power of the Repub party. The moderate conservatives have had to move right, the middle has been decontructed both economically in this country, and politicially.
I think people are ready to rally behind real leadership and someone who has proven to put their best interest first over ambition and corporate campaign cash. But they desperately need to step away from the tv and make their minds up based on facts and records and they have to stop this practice of voting out of fear against someone else. if you focus on the negative...you'll keep seeing it. Everyone was focused on this 'Anyone but Bush' theme in 04 and they got Bush. I want to be 'for' someone because they are what I expect to see in a leader and public servant. I don't want your words, your commercials and clever little sound bytes...I want to see actions and accomplishments. I want proof that you believe in what you're saying. I don't see any of this in Obama.
you want to blame the Democrats, please, if your idealology, which I agree with some is so good, where is the movement, the leadership, if it's so right, why is 95% of the country on someone else's team?
Money and exposure. It's really that simple. The press Nader does get always invloves the words 'spoiler' and 'unelectable'. You know full well the pull media has over people. Not to mention that for Nader, it's an uphill battle from the get go. He can't go out on these huge publicity tours. Right now he is out there fighting to just get his name on the ballot in most states. he has to raise money just to have his name printed alongside the others on the ballot. Then they keep him out of the debates that are watched bu millions. It's really not hard to why he's not getting the support the others are. All you hear about when you flip on the tv is Obama/Hillary/McCain. The guys with no money, that are out there for us are not mentioned. Perot had money already and it got him pretty far.
70% want us out of Iraq, doesn't mean anti-war, leave now, most are realistic enough no understand that it's not an overnight process, that we can't leave hell behind, though in the end we might. What the Bush administration has done in Iraq can't be scene as part of the effort to get us out, they have just tried to cut violence, and U S loss of life, through using merc's, and limiting what our forces do, most spend their time on a base, all so they can pass the problem on, and hopefully have their agenda far enough along, that it can't be reversed easily.
I don't think anyone has proposed an over night solution. No need to exaggerate to make a point. One of Obama's advisors was quoted as saying a start to a withdrawal process in 16 months after taking office was a best case scenario. That means we'll still be there 2 years from now without a even beginning a withdrawal. That simply is not acceptable for me. And our debt is going to continue to grow to a point of disaster. And worse people will continue to die for nothing this whole time while we stall and make more excuses.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Who is in power and able to get things done then? The president has all the power? No checks and balances. I bet some of you will continue to use the Bush scapegoat to excuse things well into Obama's presidency. It just seems a bit hypocritical. It's not responsible to keep throwing money into a mess that we only keep making worse. To me, it is responsible to end this war and put real focus on wrapping it up and getting out. UN peacekeeping troops will come in and further aid the Iraqi once we leave.
not sure why you constantly go here, but I'm not using any scapegoats other than it's the fault of the American people. you want Obama to fail, I understand, he's a failure, but more successful than any non Democratic or Republican political figure. that being true, what does it say about those others? He's doing something, motivating people, being heard, yes he's calculating and careful, but the next generation, he brings hope, and because you have none, doesn't mean it's not there. it's a step, it may end up as a step backwards, but it's more than has presented itself in a long while.
as for peacekeepers, sounds like something that fits right in what I've talked about, and like something Obama would due.
"Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)
no Obama has voted to fund the military, that is something we have no choice in, I'm tired of the bs rhetoric around this. We aren't taking good enough care of them as it is, to take the money away isn't an option. They president has options to take money from other areas, so it isn't this end all solution. The stop funding Vietnam in what, April of '76 or so, by voting to defund it in congress, guess what, the troops were already out of Vietnam by then.
You need to realize we are just as tired of what we view as 'rhetoric' from people like you and politicians. This war could have ended by if they wanted it to but too many cronies are profitting off it.
Condi Rice, though the wrong person for the job, is by far, one of the better appointments by the Bush administration. Cheney is not a fan. I have no problem with her, cause Cheney, Rumsfeld, Pearl, and others are the bigger problem.
She has been a liar and an instrument of propaganda for the Bush admin from the start. If you think she's alright, I guess we will have to disagree on that one. There's no way in hell I could have voted to confirm her in good conscience unless my political ambitions meant more to me than standing up for what's right.
Also, voting for someone when you are in the minority, and your vote doesn't make a difference is a political move, it may gain him a favor, so looking at that vote as some larger problem holds no sway in my opinion.
I guess doing the right thing has to take a backseat. Jeez, with all the excuses people come up with for their favorite politicians, it's no wonder why our system is so fucked. It's like playing a game for some..more than having ethics and morals. Do whatever it takes to advances to gain power and never hold anyone accountable because it's just politics. ugh
Politics shape our lives. If we care about our the quality of our lives then we better stop making excuses for our favorite team of politicians and start making them do their job representing us...our needs and best interests first ove their ambition and lust for power.
The Patriot Act was changed slightly, it has some good stuff in it, but it also has bad stuff. More of it needs to be brought before the Supreme Court for a ruling. This has been a mess from the start, but again, it's about not rocking the vote, which I understand isn't a strong point for an individual.
And now the patriot act is not so bad. Let's drop the limbo stick down a bit more and see how low you're willing to go to excuse Obama. Seriously.
Nadar is a manager, a man that has done great things, but behind the scenes in regards to national exposure, not a leader. Barack has leadership atributes, he has strong oratory skills, and he will make a difference, he will upset the Democrat elite, and the right wing, but most others will be with him. He won't please all, sometime not most, but when he doesn't it will be something they can live with. He will also be a great agent for change by moving the country to the next generation. This will allow for more ideas outside of the two parties to gain strength with the american people. He will be the next President, and I'm looking forward to discussing that future as it's created.
Nader: Done many great things for the country. Got things done against the odds and fought the powers that be to do so. He has founded 100 grassroot organizations to fight for various causes. But he is somehow not a leader? How is he not?
Obama: Haven't seen any great things he has done for the people. He gives good speeches. He is a leader because we say so. Then back it up...show me how Obama is a leader. You keep telling me he has to go along and not rock the boat to have politicial ambition and get elected....but how is that leadership attributes? You seem to just be saying how great he is without putting anything forth to prove it. Let's see slome evidence of this great leadership.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
this is America, that won't happen, marketing techniques alone will keep the majority, or even a large enough minority from taking action. Talk will happen, but action, I currently have no faith in my fellow citizens on this.
We elected and re-elected Bush/Cheney, they have dismantled clean air, the dollar, the middle class, the constitution, the military, widened the divide between right and left, they've brought evangelicals closer to their goal of Armageddon, we crap on our vets still, and their are far worse things I'm sure I haven't mentioned, and yet, we for the most part, go through our lives without issue.
by the time people stand up, it'll be too late...yet, I'm still optimistic that somehow, not sure how, we can turn it around.
Well that doesn't mean I stop trying. If we really tried to fix our system and vote in people who were actually interested in working on behalf of the public then maybe we'd start seeing some change. Right now all I keep hearing is how Obama is going to bring change but then when I point out how his platform looks like more of the same....I get 'that's just how politics works' How the fuck is that 'change' then???
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
they do, and I do, I'm saying I'm confident he will be the next president, and with all we've discussed we'll see how it turns out, that doesn't mean sit back and do nothing now, doesn't mean he get's a free ride, that eveyone shouldn't stand up and vocalize, shouldn't challenge him on issues and stances.
The start of this was that Obama needs to be protested against, and somehow in the middle that the Dems are failures, I love all this attention they get, every Republican should get such attention. So easy to pile on Dem's, change out Dems for whatever you want, you will only lose ground, Guarranteed. You need to be able to move people to your cause, stance, ideas, not force them down their throats, unless you are in a place of power, like the conservatives have had.
Only because so many are still willing to excuse their blatant failures. I view this as the public's failure on top of the Dems and I'm not going to be a part of excusing this horrid system that continues to get us nowhere no matter which party is in power. I'm expressing my views the same as anyone else. I have no power to force anything down your throat but I will, however, say my thoughts on it. Frankly, I am fed up with the Dems. They are dishonest and ineffectual. Lose ground? What ground are they giving us now?
You can't think of any better way to get a seat at the table? Maybe look at each situation for what it is, and partner where their is common ground, or at least ground that is close enough that you can work on it.
anyway, not telling anyone to vote for Obama, or anyone else, and I agree he need so be challenged on issues, but help get rid of the big problem people, and you will find that the lesser evils are more likely to become allies and the evil to go away.
There has been no evidence of this in the past. With no accountability, they have only continued to cater to big business more and more. All they seem to have to offer is the tired line of 'At least we're not republicans' and that is not good enough for me anymore. People seem all to happy giving them this title of 'This is all we've got America. The best we can do. These two pathetic choices'. I think we can do much better and am not settling for mediocre. When people realize we have the power and the numbers to get more of what we want to see in DC and locally then things will change. I'll be waiting.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
First, I'm not a democrat. Second, I'm confident I knew more about this situation before it happened before most, and have understood, not only why we didn't want to go into Iraq, but why they wanted to go into Iraq. So as always, I feel I'll have a good outlook regardless he is in charge, what decisions are in place.
As for changing bring them home with Obama '08, that's rhetoric bs, there was never a strong anti-war movement, again 70% poll, maybe 5% speaking out, if you had 70%, then there wouldn't be an issue. No sloagan was replaced, because many of those you are talking about, are like you, and not support any major candidate. So they just got quiet, or drowned out, but Obama is not the replacement, he is himself.
We do have 70% but those people include people that view themselves as having no options but a R or a D, no say in the matter and powerless to change things. They have all folded and put their faith in someone who hopefully won't be as bad as Bush relying on that to solve these problems. I'm not one of those people. If those people thought they could rock the boat and change the system they would.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
We do have 70% but those people include people that view themselves as having no options but a R or a D, no say in the matter and powerless to change things. They have all folded
so basically you have nothing then.
"Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)
We have a majority of the country that doesn't vote, mostly becasue they don't think their vote counts. A corporate candidate inevitably wins. If that majority would get off their ass we could shake things up.
Bush never rallied others that didn't already want what he wanted. Bush was having rallies with only people who signed agreements or pledges to him, no dissenting voices in the crowd. Bush was living a fantasy, because he was sheltered. You go ahead and keep trying to use rhetoric to tie Bush and Obama together, this is the exact kind of talk that keeps alternate ideas from ever gaining any headway, it's turns people off before they get a chance to her the message.
Obama never rallied others that didn't already want what he's promising either. Who goes along with a poltician that is saying he'll do things they don't want.
I'm not saying Obama and Bush are the same policywise. I'm saying they are both politicians who take advantage of fear and desperation to gain support. If that turns people away from any ideas I have then they are close minded types who don't know how to listen to what is said and make their own decisions based on the merit of the idea. Those are reactionary types who already close themselves off from quite a lot. It's like threatening someone by saying if I express this sentiment then you won't listen to anything else I may have to say no matter how much sense it might make. Those types can fuck off for all I care.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
We have a majority of the country that doesn't vote, mostly becasue they don't think their vote counts. A corporate candidate inevitably wins. If that majority would get off their ass we could shake things up.
so nothing? not quite.
yes nothing, if their is no action, you have nothing.
"Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)
not sure why you constantly go here, but I'm not using any scapegoats other than it's the fault of the American people. you want Obama to fail, I understand, he's a failure, but more successful than any non Democratic or Republican political figure. that being true, what does it say about those others? He's doing something, motivating people, being heard, yes he's calculating and careful, but the next generation, he brings hope, and because you have none, doesn't mean it's not there. it's a step, it may end up as a step backwards, but it's more than has presented itself in a long while.
as for peacekeepers, sounds like something that fits right in what I've talked about, and like something Obama would due.
So there's hope. Most people have great hopes for whomever they vote for. Does that change the history of what actually went down once they got elected. I need more than 'Obama is making people hopeful' I need to know what this hope is based on.
I have plenty of hope. Just not much faith in Obama.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I've voted every presidential election of my adult life, and since '99 every election, local, state, federal.
I've stated many times the problem is the American people, we are the only one's that can fix these issues, but we don't have it in us (as a whole) yet, now do we?
how can we over come when as a nation our memories are a week long or shorter, we are misinformed, uneducated, complacent, self centered, should I continue?
I'm an independent, I'm supporting Obama cause I always vote, and yes so far it's been the less of two evils, but Obama is an improvement, the race issue alone is a win for THIS country. a hell of a lot more will need to happen before any real change will even be possible. keep fighting, keep working for it, keep discussing, but reality is right now, that Obama will be the next President, now what benefits can come from this? what realities can change from this?
"Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)
yes nothing, if their is no action, you have nothing.
And the Obama supporters should know all too well about no action. He hasn't done anything much since in office.
Maybe that's what everyone is doing...putting all their chips on Obama bailing us out of this mess. You can't very well be anti-war when supporting him. He plans on staying in Iraq for quite some time, at least 2 years from now before we even begin to withdrawal. We've been speaking out against this war for 5 years now. We voted in a Congress to stop it and only after they gladly took those seats did they let us in on the fact that they were not planning on stopping it, and that they would be so 'powerless' to do anything. That sure didn't stop them from selling an end to this war while they were campaigning. And my guess is Obama is doing the same. So we keep putting these guys in power to do something they never get around to doing and then we just shrug and say 'ok then', accountability not being in anyone's vocabulary. Then we all get excited and line up behind the next big, bright Democratic failure. I can't wait to hear all the excuses for Obama when he doesn't follow through with his promises either. They'll be plenty because people would rather excuse these people to the bitter end than admit they were wrong, the system isn't working for us and they should have known better in the first place. Breaking the cycle and starting a new system with actual change implemented would require too much time and effort. And everyone loves to have the word 'impossible' in their vocabulary....it's a way out of responsibility.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I've voted every presidential election of my adult life, and since '99 every election, local, state, federal.
I've stated many times the problem is the American people, we are the only one's that can fix these issues, but we don't have it in us (as a whole) yet, now do we?
how can we over come when as a nation our memories are a week long or shorter, we are misinformed, uneducated, complacent, self centered, should I continue?
I'm an independent, I'm supporting Obama cause I always vote, and yes so far it's been the less of two evils, but Obama is an improvement, the race issue alone is a win for THIS country. a hell of a lot more will need to happen before any real change will even be possible. keep fighting, keep working for it, keep discussing, but reality is right now, that Obama will be the next President, now what benefits can come from this? what realities can change from this?
You have to be the change you wish to see in the world. You can't expect everyone else to do something you're not even willing to do. You have to stand up for what you believe is right and FOR ONCE stop worrying about what everyone is going to do. Lead by example and for god's sake, if you see something as part of the problem don't keep supporting it. It starts with you.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
You have to be the change you wish to see in the world. You can't expect everyone else to do something you're not even willing to do. You have to stand up for what you believe is right and FOR ONCE stop worrying about what everyone is going to do. Lead by example and for god's sake, if you see something as part of the problem don't keep supporting it. It starts with you.
not worried about others, saying that's the problem, right now I want Obama to be President, I do not want this country in the hands of Ralph Nadar as President ever. I would very much like to see Ralph Nadar play a major role in someone's administration.
so if I say a leader, and someone I believed in as a third party candidate, I'd vote in a heartbeat, regardless of what others thought, I would hope everyone would.
I see you are the same way and that's great.
"Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)
not worried about others, saying that's the problem, right now I want Obama to be President, I do not want this country in the hands of Ralph Nadar as President ever. I would very much like to see Ralph Nadar play a major role in someone's administration.
so if I say a leader, and someone I believed in as a third party candidate, I'd vote in a heartbeat, regardless of what others thought, I would hope everyone would.
I see you are the same way and that's great.
So the change you want to see is the lesser of two evils? I want much more than that. And I see much more than that in Nader, me personally.
"I'm an independent, I'm supporting Obama cause I always vote, and yes so far it's been the less of two evils, but Obama is an improvement, the race issue alone is a win for THIS country. a hell of a lot more will need to happen before any real change will even be possible. keep fighting, keep working for it, keep discussing, but reality is right now, that Obama will be the next President, now what benefits can come from this? what realities can change from this?"
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
So the change you want to see is the lesser of two evils? I want much more than that. And I see much more than that in Nader, me personally.
"I'm an independent, I'm supporting Obama cause I always vote, and yes so far it's been the less of two evils, but Obama is an improvement, the race issue alone is a win for THIS country. a hell of a lot more will need to happen before any real change will even be possible. keep fighting, keep working for it, keep discussing, but reality is right now, that Obama will be the next President, now what benefits can come from this? what realities can change from this?"
the change we need will not come from electing one person. I'd am not voting the lesser of two evils, I have some faith in Obama. I see him as a step forward.
as for voting for the less of two evils, if it was the difference for Gore and Bush, I'll be dammed if Nadar would get my vote, and he didn't. Doesn't change the fact that I like him, and want him to provide influence to the country, but I have no faith in him as a President.
people can vote ideology all they want, skip reality, see cause, the reality of that ideology is George W Bush.
the change we need will not come from a Presidential election
"Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)
the change we need will not come from electing one person. I'd am not voting the lesser of two evils, I have some faith in Obama. I see him as a step forward.
as for voting for the less of two evils, if it was the difference for Gore and Bush, I'll be dammed if Nadar would get my vote, and he didn't. Doesn't change the fact that I like him, and want him to provide influence to the country, but I have no faith in him as a President.
people can vote ideology all they want, skip reality, see cause, the reality of that ideology is George W Bush.
the change we need will not come from a Presidential election
The change we need comes from all of our actions not just this election but including this election.
Reality is what we make it....I can't say that enough. Everytime you bring up how good it would be to do this or that but won't because it's not reality then you are making you're decisions based on others instead of following your own principles. Your reality absolutely consists of your own principles and beliefs. The 'reality' you're speaking of is what you think everyone else's reality consists of....and they are doing the same most often. So everyone is going around not taking a stand or a risk for what they really would like to see because they think everyone else isn't or won't. You have to be the one to be brave enough to make your reality happen and stop worrying about what the reality is out there for everyone else. That is the ONLY way you'll start seeing the things you'd like to see happen in this world.
And Nader would make a damn fine President! I can't think of one reason why he wouldn't.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
The change we need comes from all of our actions not just this election but including this election.
Reality is what we make it....I can't say that enough. Everytime you bring up how good it would be to do this or that but won't because it's not reality then you are making you're decisions based on others instead of following your own principles. Your reality absolutely consists of your own principles and beliefs. The 'reality' you're speaking of is what you think everyone else's reality consists of....and they are doing the same most often. So everyone is going around not taking a stand or a risk for what they really would like to see because they think everyone else isn't or won't. You have to be the one to be brave enough to make your reality happen and stop worrying about what the reality is out there for everyone else. That is the ONLY way you'll start seeing the things you'd like to see happen in this world.
And Nader would make a damn fine President! I can't think of one reason why he wouldn't.
really think someone, though I admire, who no one listens to on a national basis politically could be a great president. mainly, cause he'll never be president.
I would love to see him showing up a democratic & republican rallies to speak to people. speaking to those that are already on your side doesn't do much for expanding your message.
I can't even comprehend voting for someone that can't carry a message to the masses, and communicate in a way that will sway people to their cause.
Obama can do this. Obama has inspired me, I am hopefull, now it's up to those that he has inspired to work for change, which he has said. The government can't do it alone.
You may not get it, but many of us do, and that's a step forward.
"Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)
really think someone, though I admire, who no one listens to on a national basis politically could be a great president. mainly, cause he'll never be president.
I would love to see him showing up a democratic & republican rallies to speak to people. speaking to those that are already on your side doesn't do much for expanding your message.
I can't even comprehend voting for someone that can't carry a message to the masses, and communicate in a way that will sway people to their cause.
Obama can do this. Obama has inspired me, I am hopefull, now it's up to those that he has inspired to work for change, which he has said. The government can't do it alone.
You may not get it, but many of us do, and that's a step forward.
The problem isn't Nader. He is articulate, knows the way civics is supposed to work, goes into pain staking detail when addressing the issues and is able to move a crowd. But money talks, sadly. That's doesn't mean I'm not going to do all I can to change that because it most certainly is not working for us. The media only sells us the guys who will further their corporate agenda and that ain't Nader by a long shot. This reliance on mainstream media for our knowledge of the candidates is not working out too well. Look around. And they leave out the good guys who would be great leaders and who would be real public servants. Instead they give us corrupted guys who don't put the people's best interests first and if they do cover Nader, it always includes calling him a spoiler and unelectable or some other negative spin....not even once mentioning all the things he has done for this country...all the lives he has saved by fighting to make things safer.
Then there's the uphill battle of going from state to state petitioning and raising money, not for his campaign, but just to get his name on the ballot as a possible choice. The DNC fights like hell to silence Nader, marginalize him and make it impossible for him to be a factor. Check his site to see all the states he has been petitioning for ballot access. votenader.org
Moving on to the presidental debates watched by millions. Nader isn't even given the chance to pitch his ideas to the masses. He is threatened with being arrested just for being in the same building where the debates are being held!! http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=5331045&postcount=47
Polls show that Americans actually favor Nader's ideas such as UHC, an end to the war, a decrease in the bloated defense budget,...they poll as being greatly concerned with corruption in the gov't and also corporate crime and welfare. None of the mainstream candidates address these.... only Nader. So if Nader's ideas are supported by the masses but he doesn't get the chance to get his message out there to the people because he doesn't have all the millions pouring in from huge business sectors....we might as well just admit our democracy has been bought and sold to the highest bidder. You might be okay with that but it bothers the shit outta me. And I won't be a part of continuing it.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
We have a majority of the country that doesn't vote, mostly becasue they don't think their vote counts. A corporate candidate inevitably wins. If that majority would get off their ass we could shake things up.
so nothing? not quite.
I dont agree with most of that at all. We have a majority of the country who doesnt vote because they are apathetic and dont know squat about the candidates anyway. Hell, Id prefer for a good portion of the people who do vote to keep their asses at home. There is a good portion of voters whose knowledge of the candidates and political issues stem from nothing but headlines and talking points, and that is on both sides of the aisle.
I dont agree with most of that at all. We have a majority of the country who doesnt vote because they are apathetic and dont know squat about the candidates anyway. Hell, Id prefer for a good portion of the people who do vote to keep their asses at home. There is a good portion of voters whose knowledge of the candidates and political issues stem from nothing but headlines and talking points, and that is on both sides of the aisle.
You want less than the 45% or so who vote, to vote? What kind of democracy is that?
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this is America, that won't happen, marketing techniques alone will keep the majority, or even a large enough minority from taking action. Talk will happen, but action, I currently have no faith in my fellow citizens on this.
We elected and re-elected Bush/Cheney, they have dismantled clean air, the dollar, the middle class, the constitution, the military, widened the divide between right and left, they've brought evangelicals closer to their goal of Armageddon, we crap on our vets still, and their are far worse things I'm sure I haven't mentioned, and yet, we for the most part, go through our lives without issue.
by the time people stand up, it'll be too late...yet, I'm still optimistic that somehow, not sure how, we can turn it around.
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they do, and I do, I'm saying I'm confident he will be the next president, and with all we've discussed we'll see how it turns out, that doesn't mean sit back and do nothing now, doesn't mean he get's a free ride, that eveyone shouldn't stand up and vocalize, shouldn't challenge him on issues and stances.
The start of this was that Obama needs to be protested against, and somehow in the middle that the Dems are failures, I love all this attention they get, every Republican should get such attention. So easy to pile on Dem's, change out Dems for whatever you want, you will only lose ground, Guarranteed. You need to be able to move people to your cause, stance, ideas, not force them down their throats, unless you are in a place of power, like the conservatives have had.
You can't think of any better way to get a seat at the table? Maybe look at each situation for what it is, and partner where their is common ground, or at least ground that is close enough that you can work on it.
anyway, not telling anyone to vote for Obama, or anyone else, and I agree he need so be challenged on issues, but help get rid of the big problem people, and you will find that the lesser evils are more likely to become allies and the evil to go away.
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good luck with that sort of thinking.
First, I'm not a democrat. Second, I'm confident I knew more about this situation before it happened before most, and have understood, not only why we didn't want to go into Iraq, but why they wanted to go into Iraq. So as always, I feel I'll have a good outlook regardless he is in charge, what decisions are in place.
As for changing bring them home with Obama '08, that's rhetoric bs, there was never a strong anti-war movement, again 70% poll, maybe 5% speaking out, if you had 70%, then there wouldn't be an issue. No sloagan was replaced, because many of those you are talking about, are like you, and not support any major candidate. So they just got quiet, or drowned out, but Obama is not the replacement, he is himself.
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Bush never rallied others that didn't already want what he wanted. Bush was having rallies with only people who signed agreements or pledges to him, no dissenting voices in the crowd. Bush was living a fantasy, because he was sheltered. You go ahead and keep trying to use rhetoric to tie Bush and Obama together, this is the exact kind of talk that keeps alternate ideas from ever gaining any headway, it's turns people off before they get a chance to her the message.
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Who is in power and able to get things done then? The president has all the power? No checks and balances. I bet some of you will continue to use the Bush scapegoat to excuse things well into Obama's presidency. It just seems a bit hypocritical. It's not responsible to keep throwing money into a mess that we only keep making worse. To me, it is responsible to end this war and put real focus on wrapping it up and getting out. UN peacekeeping troops will come in and further aid the Iraqi once we leave.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
The anti-war movement is a failure because of people like Obama and his supporters that won't push hard enough. That is your opinion that the people would replace the Dems over those issues...especially when polls show they oppose those issues. The American people keep voting in people that don't do much for them every election cycle. I really don't see how it would be different here if congress actually did what the public is saying they should. That makes no sense. It's like saying 'Oh shit! Those bastards did what we wanted them to! Get their asses outta there!' This is just more politicing based on opinions that don't make sense.
I think people are ready to rally behind real leadership and someone who has proven to put their best interest first over ambition and corporate campaign cash. But they desperately need to step away from the tv and make their minds up based on facts and records and they have to stop this practice of voting out of fear against someone else. if you focus on the negative...you'll keep seeing it. Everyone was focused on this 'Anyone but Bush' theme in 04 and they got Bush. I want to be 'for' someone because they are what I expect to see in a leader and public servant. I don't want your words, your commercials and clever little sound bytes...I want to see actions and accomplishments. I want proof that you believe in what you're saying. I don't see any of this in Obama.
Money and exposure. It's really that simple. The press Nader does get always invloves the words 'spoiler' and 'unelectable'. You know full well the pull media has over people. Not to mention that for Nader, it's an uphill battle from the get go. He can't go out on these huge publicity tours. Right now he is out there fighting to just get his name on the ballot in most states. he has to raise money just to have his name printed alongside the others on the ballot. Then they keep him out of the debates that are watched bu millions. It's really not hard to why he's not getting the support the others are. All you hear about when you flip on the tv is Obama/Hillary/McCain. The guys with no money, that are out there for us are not mentioned. Perot had money already and it got him pretty far.
I don't think anyone has proposed an over night solution. No need to exaggerate to make a point. One of Obama's advisors was quoted as saying a start to a withdrawal process in 16 months after taking office was a best case scenario. That means we'll still be there 2 years from now without a even beginning a withdrawal. That simply is not acceptable for me. And our debt is going to continue to grow to a point of disaster. And worse people will continue to die for nothing this whole time while we stall and make more excuses.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
not sure why you constantly go here, but I'm not using any scapegoats other than it's the fault of the American people. you want Obama to fail, I understand, he's a failure, but more successful than any non Democratic or Republican political figure. that being true, what does it say about those others? He's doing something, motivating people, being heard, yes he's calculating and careful, but the next generation, he brings hope, and because you have none, doesn't mean it's not there. it's a step, it may end up as a step backwards, but it's more than has presented itself in a long while.
as for peacekeepers, sounds like something that fits right in what I've talked about, and like something Obama would due.
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You need to realize we are just as tired of what we view as 'rhetoric' from people like you and politicians. This war could have ended by if they wanted it to but too many cronies are profitting off it.
She has been a liar and an instrument of propaganda for the Bush admin from the start. If you think she's alright, I guess we will have to disagree on that one. There's no way in hell I could have voted to confirm her in good conscience unless my political ambitions meant more to me than standing up for what's right.
http://counterpunch.org/kozloff04032008.html
I guess doing the right thing has to take a backseat. Jeez, with all the excuses people come up with for their favorite politicians, it's no wonder why our system is so fucked. It's like playing a game for some..more than having ethics and morals. Do whatever it takes to advances to gain power and never hold anyone accountable because it's just politics. ugh
Politics shape our lives. If we care about our the quality of our lives then we better stop making excuses for our favorite team of politicians and start making them do their job representing us...our needs and best interests first ove their ambition and lust for power.
And now the patriot act is not so bad. Let's drop the limbo stick down a bit more and see how low you're willing to go to excuse Obama. Seriously.
Nader: Done many great things for the country. Got things done against the odds and fought the powers that be to do so. He has founded 100 grassroot organizations to fight for various causes. But he is somehow not a leader? How is he not?
Obama: Haven't seen any great things he has done for the people. He gives good speeches. He is a leader because we say so. Then back it up...show me how Obama is a leader. You keep telling me he has to go along and not rock the boat to have politicial ambition and get elected....but how is that leadership attributes? You seem to just be saying how great he is without putting anything forth to prove it. Let's see slome evidence of this great leadership.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Well that doesn't mean I stop trying. If we really tried to fix our system and vote in people who were actually interested in working on behalf of the public then maybe we'd start seeing some change. Right now all I keep hearing is how Obama is going to bring change but then when I point out how his platform looks like more of the same....I get 'that's just how politics works' How the fuck is that 'change' then???
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I sure couldn't tell it from reading this board.
Only because so many are still willing to excuse their blatant failures. I view this as the public's failure on top of the Dems and I'm not going to be a part of excusing this horrid system that continues to get us nowhere no matter which party is in power. I'm expressing my views the same as anyone else. I have no power to force anything down your throat but I will, however, say my thoughts on it. Frankly, I am fed up with the Dems. They are dishonest and ineffectual. Lose ground? What ground are they giving us now?
There has been no evidence of this in the past. With no accountability, they have only continued to cater to big business more and more. All they seem to have to offer is the tired line of 'At least we're not republicans' and that is not good enough for me anymore. People seem all to happy giving them this title of 'This is all we've got America. The best we can do. These two pathetic choices'. I think we can do much better and am not settling for mediocre. When people realize we have the power and the numbers to get more of what we want to see in DC and locally then things will change. I'll be waiting.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
We do have 70% but those people include people that view themselves as having no options but a R or a D, no say in the matter and powerless to change things. They have all folded and put their faith in someone who hopefully won't be as bad as Bush relying on that to solve these problems. I'm not one of those people. If those people thought they could rock the boat and change the system they would.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
so basically you have nothing then.
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so nothing? not quite.
Obama never rallied others that didn't already want what he's promising either. Who goes along with a poltician that is saying he'll do things they don't want.
I'm not saying Obama and Bush are the same policywise. I'm saying they are both politicians who take advantage of fear and desperation to gain support. If that turns people away from any ideas I have then they are close minded types who don't know how to listen to what is said and make their own decisions based on the merit of the idea. Those are reactionary types who already close themselves off from quite a lot. It's like threatening someone by saying if I express this sentiment then you won't listen to anything else I may have to say no matter how much sense it might make. Those types can fuck off for all I care.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
yes nothing, if their is no action, you have nothing.
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So there's hope. Most people have great hopes for whomever they vote for. Does that change the history of what actually went down once they got elected. I need more than 'Obama is making people hopeful' I need to know what this hope is based on.
I have plenty of hope. Just not much faith in Obama.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
And what do you have? Some good speeches and pretty promises?
What's Obama done to make you so sure he is going to be this great leader?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I've stated many times the problem is the American people, we are the only one's that can fix these issues, but we don't have it in us (as a whole) yet, now do we?
how can we over come when as a nation our memories are a week long or shorter, we are misinformed, uneducated, complacent, self centered, should I continue?
I'm an independent, I'm supporting Obama cause I always vote, and yes so far it's been the less of two evils, but Obama is an improvement, the race issue alone is a win for THIS country. a hell of a lot more will need to happen before any real change will even be possible. keep fighting, keep working for it, keep discussing, but reality is right now, that Obama will be the next President, now what benefits can come from this? what realities can change from this?
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And the Obama supporters should know all too well about no action. He hasn't done anything much since in office.
Maybe that's what everyone is doing...putting all their chips on Obama bailing us out of this mess. You can't very well be anti-war when supporting him. He plans on staying in Iraq for quite some time, at least 2 years from now before we even begin to withdrawal. We've been speaking out against this war for 5 years now. We voted in a Congress to stop it and only after they gladly took those seats did they let us in on the fact that they were not planning on stopping it, and that they would be so 'powerless' to do anything. That sure didn't stop them from selling an end to this war while they were campaigning. And my guess is Obama is doing the same. So we keep putting these guys in power to do something they never get around to doing and then we just shrug and say 'ok then', accountability not being in anyone's vocabulary. Then we all get excited and line up behind the next big, bright Democratic failure. I can't wait to hear all the excuses for Obama when he doesn't follow through with his promises either. They'll be plenty because people would rather excuse these people to the bitter end than admit they were wrong, the system isn't working for us and they should have known better in the first place. Breaking the cycle and starting a new system with actual change implemented would require too much time and effort. And everyone loves to have the word 'impossible' in their vocabulary....it's a way out of responsibility.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
You have to be the change you wish to see in the world. You can't expect everyone else to do something you're not even willing to do. You have to stand up for what you believe is right and FOR ONCE stop worrying about what everyone is going to do. Lead by example and for god's sake, if you see something as part of the problem don't keep supporting it. It starts with you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
not worried about others, saying that's the problem, right now I want Obama to be President, I do not want this country in the hands of Ralph Nadar as President ever. I would very much like to see Ralph Nadar play a major role in someone's administration.
so if I say a leader, and someone I believed in as a third party candidate, I'd vote in a heartbeat, regardless of what others thought, I would hope everyone would.
I see you are the same way and that's great.
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So the change you want to see is the lesser of two evils? I want much more than that. And I see much more than that in Nader, me personally.
"I'm an independent, I'm supporting Obama cause I always vote, and yes so far it's been the less of two evils, but Obama is an improvement, the race issue alone is a win for THIS country. a hell of a lot more will need to happen before any real change will even be possible. keep fighting, keep working for it, keep discussing, but reality is right now, that Obama will be the next President, now what benefits can come from this? what realities can change from this?"
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
the change we need will not come from electing one person. I'd am not voting the lesser of two evils, I have some faith in Obama. I see him as a step forward.
as for voting for the less of two evils, if it was the difference for Gore and Bush, I'll be dammed if Nadar would get my vote, and he didn't. Doesn't change the fact that I like him, and want him to provide influence to the country, but I have no faith in him as a President.
people can vote ideology all they want, skip reality, see cause, the reality of that ideology is George W Bush.
the change we need will not come from a Presidential election
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The change we need comes from all of our actions not just this election but including this election.
Reality is what we make it....I can't say that enough. Everytime you bring up how good it would be to do this or that but won't because it's not reality then you are making you're decisions based on others instead of following your own principles. Your reality absolutely consists of your own principles and beliefs. The 'reality' you're speaking of is what you think everyone else's reality consists of....and they are doing the same most often. So everyone is going around not taking a stand or a risk for what they really would like to see because they think everyone else isn't or won't. You have to be the one to be brave enough to make your reality happen and stop worrying about what the reality is out there for everyone else. That is the ONLY way you'll start seeing the things you'd like to see happen in this world.
And Nader would make a damn fine President! I can't think of one reason why he wouldn't.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
really think someone, though I admire, who no one listens to on a national basis politically could be a great president. mainly, cause he'll never be president.
I would love to see him showing up a democratic & republican rallies to speak to people. speaking to those that are already on your side doesn't do much for expanding your message.
I can't even comprehend voting for someone that can't carry a message to the masses, and communicate in a way that will sway people to their cause.
Obama can do this. Obama has inspired me, I am hopefull, now it's up to those that he has inspired to work for change, which he has said. The government can't do it alone.
You may not get it, but many of us do, and that's a step forward.
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Have you heard Nader speak?
The problem isn't Nader. He is articulate, knows the way civics is supposed to work, goes into pain staking detail when addressing the issues and is able to move a crowd. But money talks, sadly. That's doesn't mean I'm not going to do all I can to change that because it most certainly is not working for us. The media only sells us the guys who will further their corporate agenda and that ain't Nader by a long shot. This reliance on mainstream media for our knowledge of the candidates is not working out too well. Look around. And they leave out the good guys who would be great leaders and who would be real public servants. Instead they give us corrupted guys who don't put the people's best interests first and if they do cover Nader, it always includes calling him a spoiler and unelectable or some other negative spin....not even once mentioning all the things he has done for this country...all the lives he has saved by fighting to make things safer.
Then there's the uphill battle of going from state to state petitioning and raising money, not for his campaign, but just to get his name on the ballot as a possible choice. The DNC fights like hell to silence Nader, marginalize him and make it impossible for him to be a factor. Check his site to see all the states he has been petitioning for ballot access. votenader.org
Moving on to the presidental debates watched by millions. Nader isn't even given the chance to pitch his ideas to the masses. He is threatened with being arrested just for being in the same building where the debates are being held!!
http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=5331045&postcount=47
Polls show that Americans actually favor Nader's ideas such as UHC, an end to the war, a decrease in the bloated defense budget,...they poll as being greatly concerned with corruption in the gov't and also corporate crime and welfare. None of the mainstream candidates address these.... only Nader. So if Nader's ideas are supported by the masses but he doesn't get the chance to get his message out there to the people because he doesn't have all the millions pouring in from huge business sectors....we might as well just admit our democracy has been bought and sold to the highest bidder. You might be okay with that but it bothers the shit outta me. And I won't be a part of continuing it.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I dont agree with most of that at all. We have a majority of the country who doesnt vote because they are apathetic and dont know squat about the candidates anyway. Hell, Id prefer for a good portion of the people who do vote to keep their asses at home. There is a good portion of voters whose knowledge of the candidates and political issues stem from nothing but headlines and talking points, and that is on both sides of the aisle.