Why would you want to participate in "faulty systems"? If you see money as a flawed approach to dealing with the exchange between human beings, then do something else. That was my only point there.
Note the part where I am questioning systems and developing my thinking. I'm big on integrative thinking, which includes adjusting and adapting to where I am, including the systems that surround me, while theorising and developing ideas that I can put into the world.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Did you notice that I used quotes around the word poor throughout my post? Once I came to understand my own personal purposes beyond victimhood in my life, and once I came to move beyond the ugly stigma of "poverty" (and that took HUGE work! and is still not entirely done!) I realised the illusions inherent in the victim/rescuer/persecutor cycles. Therefore in my questions to you here today, I'm not at all concerned with rescuing some less-wealthy people. I am concerned with the values we are de-ascribing to the less-wealthy folks. I'm concerned with the illusion that they have little that is tangible to offer if they don't have money to represent that worth, and I am concerned with the idea that they have no skills if they don't have money to back up their value. My children and I continually talk about how blessed and how rich we've been.
Ok. I think I get what you're saying here and agree. When I say that poor people have "little that is tangible to offer", I'm saying they have little that is tangible to offer me in a purely economic sense, which is a direct reply to the original statement that I should provide them with economic means. That's it. I'm not trying to narrow the focus of their worth as people. Rather, the proposed "solution" is doing that. It forces me to evaluate the poor in an economic sense.
Meanwhile, I freely respect many "poor" people, freely exchange many conversations with "poor" people, freely love a few "poor" people, etc etc. These are all non-economic forms of exchange that carry their own seperate measures of worth. Fundamentally, the exchange is the same though. Yet no one is suggesting a "respect tax" for the poor or a "love tax" for the poor, are they?
Note the part where I am questioning systems and developing my thinking. I'm big on integrative thinking, which includes adjusting and adapting to where I am, including the systems that surround me, while theorising and developing ideas that I can put into the world.
Ok -- what I'm trying to get a handle on is why the "money system" is flawed, to you.
Ok. I think I get what you're saying here and agree.
When I say that poor people have "little that is tangible to offer", I'm saying they have little that is tangible to offer me in a purely economic sense, which is a direct reply to the original statement that I should provide them with economic means. That's it. I'm not trying to narrow the focus of their worth as people. Rather, the proposed "solution" is doing that. It forces me to evaluate the poor in an economic sense.
I didn't think you were intending to narrow the focus of "their" worth as people. I'm hyper aware of the ways we all contribute in saying things that can be heard by "poor" people as minimising. And unfortunately I know firsthand how that fuels the cycles. I also agree that looking at "them" as victims continues to reinforce socially accepted bias and prejudice that even "the poor" themselves accept and reinforce. It's very insidious.
Meanwhile, I freely respect many "poor" people, freely exchange many conversations with "poor" people, freely love a few poor people, etc etc.
I know you do.
These are all non-economic forms of exchange that carry their own seperate measures of worth. Fundamentally, the exchange is the same. Yet no one is suggesting a "respect tax" for the poor or a "love tax" for the poor, are they?
I'm not sure if anyone is suggesting those taxes.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I didn't think you were intending to narrow the focus of "their" worth as people. I'm hyper aware of the ways we all contribute in saying things that can be heard by "poor" people as minimising. And unfortunately I know firsthand how that fuels the cycles. I also agree that looking at "them" as victims continues to reinforce socially accepted bias and prejudice that even "the poor" themselves accept and reinforce. It's very insidious.
Certainly.
I'm not sure if anyone is suggesting those taxes.
Of course they aren't. Which is why I get a bit rankled when I'm often accused here of looking at this issue in a purely economic sense.
Ok -- what I'm trying to get a handle on is why the "money system" is flawed, to you.
I don't have a handle on it, myself. This is not stuff that is solidified for me at all. As a matter of fact, I'm reliant on such conversations to catalyse my awareness. What I do know is that there are natural forces that exist around us that repel us when we are not working effectively, and that embrace us and reward us when we are. Based on tapping into these natural forces, and by growing to understand them and how to create to more potent degrees, I've found my own way to greater and greater degrees of empowerment. So in that sense, I think you and I are on board that one must engage in natural law and learn to work with it rather than expect things handed to one. Unfortunately, for some reason, 99% of people I know don't seem to get that natural intunedness thing. Instead many people have been taught to abide by man-made structures that seek to reflect the natural laws. Ideas such as "capitalism" and what that entails. Or "socialist" practices follow other natural laws and yet capitalism and socialism still merely reflect these laws, and not always accurately, and even when accurately, neither fully reflect the whole picture.
So, as I try to integrate my perceptions, I see the validity in hierarchical climbing types of modes of achievement, as well as the value of lateral based sharing. I see that they go hand in hand. But besides that, I still see many things that either view misses out on mostly because I'm not looking at the contrived systems, I'm looking at the laws I interact with and perceive.
My general bent in life is in nudging, pushing or encouraging people to allow the value back into life--we cannot afford to collapse life into meaningless monotone "objects". In the western world, we look upon non-monied value as almost a weakness. Like it's not logical or something. And due to this, we miss out on connecting with natural law in awareness.
When we have an imbalanced focus on anything, we suffer from imbalance. The money thing is a biggie. We focus on economic value and prioritise that. And at the same time people, due to their conditioning and adherence to the taught structures of value, minimise the inherent value surrounding us. We do this at great cost. And yet, all around us there exists beautiful, amazing and magical principles at work that we are just numbed out of seeing or appreciating. As we more and more open to tapping these principles, we'll find that we have exactly what we need for problem solving any and all of our big issues right at our fingertips at this point in time.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Of course they aren't. Which is why I get a bit rankled when I'm often accused here of looking at this issue in a purely economic sense.
Communication is so ineffective at getting across the entirety of what backs our ideas.
If you are referring to me thinking you are being purely economic, I have to call out your words as they stand, which is not necessarily how you intend them. And that's not about you, but about the opportunity to further my own purposes. And it's to open up the subject matter to show what I'm seeing and that I think people are missing out on due to our overly and falsely objectified world. I always remember numerous details about your life that you have shared on this board. I see you and your words in the context of who you are, and I don't think I've ever considered you some shallow money focussed guy. Okay, well, wait, at the beginning I did question that about you! I do see that others often misunderstand you, and again, I think it's because they see the words in black and white and miss the context of who you really are.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Seems odd since child poverty is on the rise in many industrial nations that "give people access to enough money". As a matter of fact, the United States has seen the highest (or close to the highest) decrease in child poverty in the last ten years. Those ten years have also been marked by tougher welfare standards.
Money is not a cure all people. It is not pixie dust. If you simply hand it out to people, "regardless of their" worth, that money will only end up being worth what those people are worth. And that means if you're handing out to people with no skills who provide no tangible benefit to society, that money will end up being worth no more than the paper it's printed on.
I feel that when people have better means to build a more stable life, no matter what past mistakes they made, they will make better decisions and contribute more positively to society. These days when people fuck up they have a hard time picking up the pieces and finding a means build a better life. This only creates a cycle of poverty in families and communities.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I feel that when people have better means to build a more stable life, no matter what past mistakes they made, they will make better decisions and contribute more positively to society.
Me too, at least in general.
These days when people fuck up they have a hard time picking up the pieces and finding a means build a better life.
Sometimes, yes. However, aren't you also incentivizing the fuck-up by rewarding it? Furthermore, picking up the pieces and finding a means to build a better life rarely requires money as a determining factor. It requires effort and morals.
This only creates a cycle of poverty in families and communities.
Of course. So do the choices of those involved. It's not only about money and it's not primarily about money.
I don't have a handle on it, myself. This is not stuff that is solidified for me at all. As a matter of fact, I'm reliant on such conversations to catalyse my awareness. What I do know is that there are natural forces that exist around us that repel us when we are not working effectively, and that embrace us and reward us when we are. Based on tapping into these natural forces, and by growing to understand them and how to create to more potent degrees, I've found my own way to greater and greater degrees of empowerment. So in that sense, I think you and I are on board that one must engage in natural law and learn to work with it rather than expect things handed to one. Unfortunately, for some reason, 99% of people I know don't seem to get that natural intunedness thing. Instead many people have been taught to abide by man-made structures that seek to reflect the natural laws. Ideas such as "capitalism" and what that entails. Or "socialist" practices follow other natural laws and yet capitalism and socialism still merely reflect these laws, and not always accurately, and even when accurately, neither fully reflect the whole picture.
So, as I try to integrate my perceptions, I see the validity in hierarchical climbing types of modes of achievement, as well as the value of lateral based sharing. I see that they go hand in hand. But besides that, I still see many things that either view misses out on mostly because I'm not looking at the contrived systems, I'm looking at the laws I interact with and perceive.
My general bent in life is in nudging, pushing or encouraging people to allow the value back into life--we cannot afford to collapse life into meaningless monotone "objects". In the western world, we look upon non-monied value as almost a weakness. Like it's not logical or something. And due to this, we miss out on connecting with natural law in awareness.
When we have an imbalanced focus on anything, we suffer from imbalance. The money thing is a biggie. We focus on economic value and prioritise that. And at the same time people, due to their conditioning and adherence to the taught structures of value, minimise the inherent value surrounding us. We do this at great cost. And yet, all around us there exists beautiful, amazing and magical principles at work that we are just numbed out of seeing or appreciating. As we more and more open to tapping these principles, we'll find that we have exactly what we need for problem solving any and all of our big issues right at our fingertips at this point in time.
This is all good stuff. I definitely agree with the points you bring up here. We'll have to touch on some of this stuff some more.
Sometimes, yes. However, aren't you also incentivizing the fuck-up by rewarding it? Furthermore, picking up the pieces and finding a means to build a better life rarely requires money as a determining factor. It requires effort and morals.
Of course. So do the choices of those involved. It's not only about money and it's not primarily about money.
I know simply throwing money at something won't fix the problem and I don't think it's all that should be done. A little confidence in people along with a boost to get them back on their feet couldn't hurt, imo....good old fashioned help for those in need. But help does require more than the easy method of tossing money at someone and walking away.
Also...I wish I would get out of the habit of using the *f word* when I feel frustrated about something. It's not very pretty. When you repeated it, it made me laugh.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I'd suggest that we actual start by looking at what it means to be poor. To me, being poor is not a relative measure against society. Rather, being poor is a relative measure against survival.
This comment hurt my heart, ffg. See, this is where you and I take differerent paths with our philosophy. I personally couldn't sit by and watch someone drown, I would lend a helping hand. In my life I will never forget those who helped me along the way. I don't look at human suffering & poverty as simply a feeble attempt to survive. It may as well be the case for some, due to disabilities or life circumstances. But in a civilized society, I believe man/woman should help those less fortunate. It's what seperates us from the animals (don't get me wrong, animals are cool too). Another important point that Abook mentioned is the idea of helping someone acheive their potential will only behoove society
You don't need me to define this. You define it yourself every time you willingly exchange money for a product or service. I do the same. The things I buy have an obvious benefit to me. Buying off the poor, just because they're poor, has no benefit to me. If it has benefit to you, then by all means do it.
And this is where we reach an empasse in the disscussion. You have, how should I say it, interesting ideas about taxation. As far as benefits (other than feeling good about helping out someone less fortunate) is a more civilized society. Also see Abook's response.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
This comment hurt my heart, ffg. See, this is where you and I take differerent paths with our philosophy. I personally couldn't sit by and watch someone drown, I would lend a helping hand.
Me too. From where in my comment would you think I wouldn't?
Drowning is a relative measure against survival.
In my life I will never forget those who helped me along the way. I don't look at human suffering & poverty as simply a feeble attempt to survive. It may as well be the case for some, due to disabilities or life circumstances. But in a civilized society, I believe man/woman should help those less fortunate.
Me too. From where in my comment would you think I don't believe that?
A robbery is not help.
It's what seperates us from the animals (don't get me wrong, animals are cool too). Another important point that Abook mentioned is the idea of helping someone acheive their potential will only behoove society
It can behoove society. It does not by default, particularly when the costs to society are greater than the benefit.
And this is where we reach an empasse in the disscussion. You have, how should I say it, interesting ideas about taxation.
Thanks...sarcasm ignored
As far as benefits (other than feeling good about helping out someone less fortunate) is a more civilized society. Also see Abook's response.
Helping someone out does make for a more civilized society. As for a society that forces people to "help" each other....that's a lot closer to the animals you mentioned earlier.
Comments
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Ok. I think I get what you're saying here and agree. When I say that poor people have "little that is tangible to offer", I'm saying they have little that is tangible to offer me in a purely economic sense, which is a direct reply to the original statement that I should provide them with economic means. That's it. I'm not trying to narrow the focus of their worth as people. Rather, the proposed "solution" is doing that. It forces me to evaluate the poor in an economic sense.
Meanwhile, I freely respect many "poor" people, freely exchange many conversations with "poor" people, freely love a few "poor" people, etc etc. These are all non-economic forms of exchange that carry their own seperate measures of worth. Fundamentally, the exchange is the same though. Yet no one is suggesting a "respect tax" for the poor or a "love tax" for the poor, are they?
Ok -- what I'm trying to get a handle on is why the "money system" is flawed, to you.
I know you do.
I'm not sure if anyone is suggesting those taxes.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Certainly.
Of course they aren't. Which is why I get a bit rankled when I'm often accused here of looking at this issue in a purely economic sense.
So, as I try to integrate my perceptions, I see the validity in hierarchical climbing types of modes of achievement, as well as the value of lateral based sharing. I see that they go hand in hand. But besides that, I still see many things that either view misses out on mostly because I'm not looking at the contrived systems, I'm looking at the laws I interact with and perceive.
My general bent in life is in nudging, pushing or encouraging people to allow the value back into life--we cannot afford to collapse life into meaningless monotone "objects". In the western world, we look upon non-monied value as almost a weakness. Like it's not logical or something. And due to this, we miss out on connecting with natural law in awareness.
When we have an imbalanced focus on anything, we suffer from imbalance. The money thing is a biggie. We focus on economic value and prioritise that. And at the same time people, due to their conditioning and adherence to the taught structures of value, minimise the inherent value surrounding us. We do this at great cost. And yet, all around us there exists beautiful, amazing and magical principles at work that we are just numbed out of seeing or appreciating. As we more and more open to tapping these principles, we'll find that we have exactly what we need for problem solving any and all of our big issues right at our fingertips at this point in time.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
If you are referring to me thinking you are being purely economic, I have to call out your words as they stand, which is not necessarily how you intend them. And that's not about you, but about the opportunity to further my own purposes. And it's to open up the subject matter to show what I'm seeing and that I think people are missing out on due to our overly and falsely objectified world. I always remember numerous details about your life that you have shared on this board. I see you and your words in the context of who you are, and I don't think I've ever considered you some shallow money focussed guy. Okay, well, wait, at the beginning I did question that about you! I do see that others often misunderstand you, and again, I think it's because they see the words in black and white and miss the context of who you really are.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I feel that when people have better means to build a more stable life, no matter what past mistakes they made, they will make better decisions and contribute more positively to society. These days when people fuck up they have a hard time picking up the pieces and finding a means build a better life. This only creates a cycle of poverty in families and communities.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Me too, at least in general.
Sometimes, yes. However, aren't you also incentivizing the fuck-up by rewarding it? Furthermore, picking up the pieces and finding a means to build a better life rarely requires money as a determining factor. It requires effort and morals.
Of course. So do the choices of those involved. It's not only about money and it's not primarily about money.
This is all good stuff. I definitely agree with the points you bring up here. We'll have to touch on some of this stuff some more.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I know simply throwing money at something won't fix the problem and I don't think it's all that should be done. A little confidence in people along with a boost to get them back on their feet couldn't hurt, imo....good old fashioned help for those in need. But help does require more than the easy method of tossing money at someone and walking away.
Also...I wish I would get out of the habit of using the *f word* when I feel frustrated about something. It's not very pretty. When you repeated it, it made me laugh.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
This comment hurt my heart, ffg. See, this is where you and I take differerent paths with our philosophy. I personally couldn't sit by and watch someone drown, I would lend a helping hand. In my life I will never forget those who helped me along the way. I don't look at human suffering & poverty as simply a feeble attempt to survive. It may as well be the case for some, due to disabilities or life circumstances. But in a civilized society, I believe man/woman should help those less fortunate. It's what seperates us from the animals (don't get me wrong, animals are cool too). Another important point that Abook mentioned is the idea of helping someone acheive their potential will only behoove society
And this is where we reach an empasse in the disscussion. You have, how should I say it, interesting ideas about taxation. As far as benefits (other than feeling good about helping out someone less fortunate) is a more civilized society. Also see Abook's response.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Me too. From where in my comment would you think I wouldn't?
Drowning is a relative measure against survival.
Me too. From where in my comment would you think I don't believe that?
A robbery is not help.
It can behoove society. It does not by default, particularly when the costs to society are greater than the benefit.
Thanks...sarcasm ignored
Helping someone out does make for a more civilized society. As for a society that forces people to "help" each other....that's a lot closer to the animals you mentioned earlier.