Debating the Role of Third Parties
Abookamongstthemany
Posts: 8,209
pt1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw1Aji8FzJc&feature=user
pt2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVRevKOtSh0
pt3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC8g7YNmCpM
pt4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zece3k884R0
pt5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_Jw2cI0-sI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw1Aji8FzJc&feature=user
pt2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVRevKOtSh0
pt3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC8g7YNmCpM
pt4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zece3k884R0
pt5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_Jw2cI0-sI
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Post edited by Unknown User on
0
Comments
Ralph Nader swings through Vermont, still taking swipes at the political system
April 30, 2008
.By Louis Porter Vermont Press Bureau
A fan poses with Ralph Nader holding a T-shirt he gave her outside of the Ben and Jerry’s ice cream shop in Montpelier on Tuesday. Nader was in the Mad River Valley hosting a fundraiser for his presidential campaign and then stopped by City Center where people were lining up on free cone day.
MONTPELIER — Ralph Nader answers the question of why he is running for president of the United States once again with the same patience and care that made him a household name for the unglamorous work of researching consumer protection lawsuits.
The events and years since he first ran in 1992, then in 1996, 2000 and 2004, haven't changed his view that there isn't enough difference between Democrats and Republicans.
Running is how you hold them to account, Nader said in an impromptu campaign interview in Montpelier on Tuesday evening. If he did not run for the office the candidates of the two major national political parties would not move their platforms toward talking about his issues of corporate control, livable wages and consumer protection, Nader said.
"It's a two-party elected dictatorship," said Nader, 74.
If the former Green Party candidate-turned-independent is chagrined by the election of George W. Bush and defeat of Al Gore in 2000, for which many Democrats blame him, he isn't showing it, despite shots at him, such as in a new book called "What Was Ralph Nader Thinking?"
"Don't think that Gore would not have had an interest in attacking Iraq," Nader said. "Clinton bombed Iraq more than a few times," not to mention imposing sanctions that devastated the country, the candidate said.
"Not only did Democrats not stop Bush's madness, but they refused to impeach him," Nader added.
As for the current major party candidates there are a series of issues they don't talk about — from single-payer health care to opening up the presidential debates, Nader said.And if he is not on the ballot it means he cannot challenge the rules and court rulings that make it difficult for third party or independent candidates to get on state ballots, Nader said.
Candidates' rights are where civil rights were seven decades ago, Nader said. Some states require large numbers of verified signatures — tens of thousands in some cases — to be gathered before a candidate is on the ballot. In others, members of the major parties or those beholden to them, either elected officials or judges, toss out signatures arbitrarily or change the rules for qualifying to be on the ballot.
Still, Nader's candidacy is not attracting the kind of attention it once did.
"I didn't even know he was in Vermont, so I guess that says something," said Rob Roper, head of the state's Republican Party. "If Ralph Nader wants to run for president I think that is great. Let him do it."
"Both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are highly qualified candidates," said Jill Kowinski, executive director of the Vermont Democratic Party. "We are focused on winning the White House back for Democrats."
Vermont, requiring only 1,000 verified signatures, is ahead of most of the rest of the country in terms of allowing third party and independent candidates a shot, Nader said.
"Vermont is arguably the most democratic state in the country," Nader said. "They have a historic tradition and it lingers. I attribute most of it to the town meeting form of government and the fact that people can become the Legislature."
Besides, "it's part of my policy of going to every state," Nader said.
Getting on the ballot was one reason to come to Vermont, said Nader, who lives in Washington, D.C., and Connecticut.
The other was to raise money. He gathered a few thousand dollars here, Nader said. He was at a fundraiser in the Mad River Valley before his stop in Montpelier
He hopes to get $10 million total and to use his campaign to launch a Congressional watchdog effort, Nader said. Nothing like that exists now, he said.
"I used to say corporations have a lot of influence in Washington. Now I say corporations are our government," Nader said.
So why does he keep running?
"Are you going to quit and go to Monterey and watch the whales or Vermont and watch the cows?" he said.
As for retirement, "I don't know the meaning of the word," Nader said. "That's a relatively modern idea, it came with the Industrial Revolution."
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
http://youtube.com/watch?v=WEny4qlPDJw
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
They'd have to get some exposure from the media to gain those things and as it stands they are being shut out.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Please feel free to add to the actual topic of discussion. Thanks, again.
***********************
"We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
***********************
Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
These rules apply to Washington State.
"Did you know there are two sets of rules governing who gets onto your ballot?
Now - What Republicans and Democrats have to do: Sign up as a candidate and pay the fee.
Candidates other than the Republican and Democratic Parties have to:
*Run an ad in the newspaper under public notices.
*Hold a “Nominating Convention” sometime within a one week period in May.
*Ask voters, during a single day, to say they attended the “Nominating convention” and sign so candidates can apply to be on the ballot.
*Must gather signatures at the same address advertised in the newspaper ad.
*Gather 100 perfect signatures if running for state legislature or county office. Gather 1,000 perfect signatures for all other partisan offices. This means gather 200 or 2,000 signatures in reality. (My own note on this: If you only collect 99 signatures during a given period, none of them count. 100 signatures is the minimum.)
*The state or county verifies signatures. If one is lacking, candidate does not get on the ballot.
*Sign up as a candidate and pay the fee. "
This whole system pisses me off. I can understand having some hurdles to jump through to discourage every yahoo and shock jock from getting their names on the ballots, but some of this is ridiculous.
People in our small towns who would like to help petition to get Nader (or any other non-mainstream party) on the ballot have little chance of being successful within these parameters.
Voter disenfranchisement? I think so.
***********************
"We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
***********************
Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
Good post! Thanks
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Exactly!
Killer Post/Information!!!
c'mon now!!!
This is not asking too much, sounds like something I could do any league night at my local bowling alley.
This is what aggravated me when I was a Green. We had thousands of signatures and interested people, but when it came to a fund raiser we always had to cancel because no-one volunteered to work.
Oh yeah, this sounds like a lot of work... if you're a lazy sod!!!!
The problem with the traditional third party idealists is they are too lazy to spring to action. There's always a concert, or an online game of World of Warcraft, or a comic book convention and they just can't take action.
What's terrible is they are the most intelligent people on the planet they just don't have any motivation.
The Republicans and Democrats however, their hobby IS politics. There's a difference.
Get off the couch, turn off the computer and actually change things thru action. We can talk about ideals all day.
:rolleyes:
What a moronic post filled with blanket statements, void of facts and full of idiocy. And nader supporters are the bashers around here. Yeeaah.
Democrats and Republican's hobbies are gaining power, influence and money. Politics is just the game they play to get them.
The ones who are in it against the odds fighting the uphill battles year after year are the ones who are in because it matters to them and they believing in fighting the good fight and doing what they believe is right....because they know no one else is going to do it for them.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
void of facts??? blanket statement???
what am I supposed to post a link to my own experiences and opinions?
some people around here think you should have some basis for every post.
I can't credibly share my own experiences. I am a card carrying Green, maybe I should take a picture of my credentials.... :rollseyesback:
Umm... yeah.
You're the one making claims about entire groups of people when you couldn't possible know any of it. It's petty and very telling. When all else fails and you can't make your points any other way....out come the insults. And it's the first sign that you don't have anything of substance left to come back with.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I'm sorry I don't have any youtube links I can post from the 2 Green Party fundraisers I was part of that were cancelled in 2004 due to lack of interest.
Maybe I can dig up some RSVP's and take a picture of those as well.
Actually, it would be nice if you'd simply add to the conversation instead of being insulting....but whatever works for you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
2 fundraisers get cancelled and the entire party's a write-off? Less a blanket statement, more a fully-fledged carpet statement. :eek:
It's only insulting if it applies.
I just find there's a lot of people that like to talk politics, but they can't ever find the time or money to support their ideals.
When you sign your name on a list that's interested in supporting (a third party) at least return courtesy phone calls. I'd rather be told to "fuck off I'm no longer interested" than be given the runaround.
Young people are being generalized here btw (more so than older supporters)
If you have done political work you know how it goes.
explain please.
maybe you don't see my point.
I mean... I know what a blanket statement is but I don't see it in this context.
Yeah, I can write it off from my experiences, high ideals -- no support
That's simple...frustrating yes
..but it's the truth
why are you arguing???
My point is you're writing off an entire party based on 2 bad experiences with it. You don't like the way the Green Party worked, that's fine - no one's forcing you to. But you labeled an awful lot of people lazy and unmotivated, when you have little or no experience with the vast majority of them.
I have and am....and I certainly don't share the same insulting and stereotypical views that you seem to hold about all the the people I've come in contact with. Most of them have huge hearts and lots of determination. Writing an entire group of people off to fit your own single, subjective view seems too easy.
I view apathy as a waaay bigger problem than laziness. If people felt they had something to really gain by getting out there and trying to make a difference then they would. But they feel powerless especially when they look around at how things have been going and how little change ever comes our way.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I think apathy is a huge problem as well but I also think laziness and ignorance are huge as well. I know it sounds like stereotyping but there are a large number of Americans that are just plain lazy. Seriously. As far as ignorance as to what is going on politically i blame two things : (1) the two year 24 hour coverage running up to the election. Your average Joe just gets sick of nonstop political bickering. (2) People that know absolutely nothing about candidates/policies yet go and vote because they are supposed to. I cannot tell you the sinking feeling i always get when they show the polls right before an election where you have like 15% - 20% undecided voters. How the hell are you undecided the day of an election?
I think the three are pretty much cyclical. If you're apathetic, you're not gonna make the effort to inform yourself, and if you're not informed, you're gonna be pretty apathetic. I know that out of maybe... 30 people I'd hang out with in college, maybe 4 of us are even registered, and you'd be lucky if two of them bothered to inform themselves or vote.
but
the "blanket statement" I made about them being lazy is insulting.
....hmmmm
but in certain words third party's have a small group of dedicated people.
so I would take back what I said...I don't believe the "small" group of dedicated people were lazy.
They just don't realize yet that they are going to have to work twice as hard as the republicans and democrats.
So they probably shouldn't be arguing politics on a band's fan site.
but that's just my opinion.
call it a blanket statement.
People generally don't take too well to backhanded compliments.
And the internet is an extremely valuable tool in modern day politics....just ask Ron Paul's campaign or Barack Obama's for that matter.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
agreed.
however, i did not look at all the links posted, i just read the article in the second post...and as we know, nader is running as an independent, sans any party affiliation, yes? so how is it truly about a 3rd party? he's simply his own man, running....
i really don't see much to 'debate' about 3rd parties...b/c i don't think enough is going on yet TO debate, quite honestly. sure...you hear about them here or there, but really...i don't think any of em have gotten strong enough just yet. i don't blame the media for that either, or at least not entirely. i think of it as 'growing pains' perhaps...getting footing, figuring themselves out, their agenda and their identity out...or at least i hope so. i do think ANY party, no matter how great...truly have their work cut out for them to crack the big 2. for far too long we've had a 2 party system, and people in general are so resistant to change, even good change....but it CAN happen, and i'd like to see it so.
btw - urban...thanks for that info, very interesting...although i have to say, as it stands...i don't think that's too crazy in all honesty. for the very reasons you point out. perhaps once there are well-established 3rd parties, it would be a non-issue...but otherwise, if you are a candidate all on your own, yes, i DO think their should be steps, etc, b/c yea...make sure your serious about being on a ballot and not just wasting time/resources. i don't see that as the problem. not a big one, anyway. you want to say many/most 3rd parties/candidates get shut out oftentimes...THAT i will agree with. however, i don't know how to change that either. elsewhere i think someone had made an excellent post about campaign reform, not the first time such has been bandied about either. that is most definitely a needed change to at all open it up for a fair system for more parties, etc. i don't know why we as americans don't fight more for it. we seem to be a nation with much hatred of monopolies, yet we allow it in our political system to a ridiculous extent. bizarre.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow