Too many secrets!

Vedderlution_BabyVedderlution_Baby Posts: 2,535
edited October 2006 in A Moving Train
How can we, as a people, critique our government if a lot of what they do, how they come to decisions, how they handle situations, are so behind closed doors? How can we, as a people, decide if what they're doing is right and what we, again as a people, deems acceptable is they are done under black ops? The government works for us, we elect them. How can they put blinders onto our eyes and then not allow us to decide what is accpetable by OUR country? It makes no sense to me. They don't do it for our protection. They do it for their protection. They do it for their careers. I don't understand.
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  • Eva7Eva7 Posts: 226
    How can we, as a people, critique our government if a lot of what they do, how they come to decisions, how they handle situations, are so behind closed doors? How can we, as a people, decide if what they're doing is right and what we, again as a people, deems acceptable is they are done under black ops? The government works for us, we elect them. How can they put blinders onto our eyes and then not allow us to decide what is accpetable by OUR country? It makes no sense to me. They don't do it for our protection. They do it for their protection. They do it for their careers. I don't understand.

    I'd like to have an answer, but it would take too much faith in human beings, a faith that I don't have. We have yet to see on earth one form of government made by the people, instead of greed and violence. Such greed and violence is what has to be hidden to the eyes of the people in a so called "democracy"... I don't think we're evoluted enough for that, and I don't believe we'll ever be. History has always been the history of the conflict between the power and the people, and an history of wars made for the good of the power, not for the people. The only thing we can do is to fight for a real democracy in the world, for our rights, and for a better humankind, but to really believe it will ever happen is another story.
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    How can we, as a people, critique our government if a lot of what they do, how they come to decisions, how they handle situations, are so behind closed doors? How can we, as a people, decide if what they're doing is right and what we, again as a people, deems acceptable is they are done under black ops? The government works for us, we elect them. How can they put blinders onto our eyes and then not allow us to decide what is accpetable by OUR country? It makes no sense to me. They don't do it for our protection. They do it for their protection. They do it for their careers. I don't understand.


    we elect those people you speak of to make decisions on our behalf.
  • jlew24asu wrote:
    we elect those people you speak of to make decisions on our behalf.
    Since those people are making decisions for us then we should have a say in them also. yes they are elected. We elect them because we want them to be honest with us and because we believe that they will do the correct thing on our behalf. How in the hell are we supposed to know what they're doing if they won't let us? I realize the U.S is not a "true" democracy and is a republic, which means elected officials make decision, but how will we ever know what decisions are being made if they keepp hiding them from us?
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Since those people are making decisions for us then we should have a say in them also. yes they are elected. We elect them because we want them to be honest with us and because we believe that they will do the correct thing on our behalf. How in the hell are we supposed to know what they're doing if they won't let us? I realize the U.S is not a "true" democracy and is a republic, which means elected officials make decision, but how will we ever know what decisions are being made if they keepp hiding them from us?

    Like JFK. I'm not sure if the government was involved in the assasination. But they are certainly involved in restricting information. What are they saying now, the people will know what happened by 2075 or some shit...
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • robbierobbie Posts: 883
    jlew24asu wrote:
    we elect those people you speak of to make decisions on our behalf.


    are you serious? we elect these people to represent our decisions, not make decisions on our behalf. and we elect them to make these decisions OPENLY. you are responsible for the decisions your leaders make, they are YOUR decisions. you vote for george bush and you vote for war, for homophobia, for anti-environmental legislation, for loss of civil liberties and human rights, for expanded powers of the executive branch, for torture, for abolishment of the geneva convention, for abolishment of habeas corpus, for signing statements allowing the executive branch power to interpret laws instead of following them, for favoritism of big business over the good of the people, for halliburton, for his response to katrina, he does not make these decisions on your behalf, you make these decisions by electing him, he simply represents you when he makes these decisions. the way you put it absolves the voting public of their responsibility in the process. and the thread was started asking why we these decisions are being made in secret and hidden from the public that they represent. i cannot understand why you are ok with this. but i guess if you believe that it is the governments job to make decisions for us as opposed to representing our decisions, then i suppose that explains your post. all of your posts really.
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    robbie wrote:
    are you serious? we elect these people to represent our decisions, not make decisions on our behalf. and we elect them to make these decisions OPENLY. you are responsible for the decisions your leaders make, they are YOUR decisions. you vote for george bush and you vote for war, for homophobia, for anti-environmental legislation, for loss of civil liberties and human rights, for expanded powers of the executive branch, for torture, for abolishment of the geneva convention, for abolishment of habeas corpus, for signing statements allowing the executive branch power to interpret laws instead of following them, for favoritism of big business over the good of the people, for halliburton, for his response to katrina, he does not make these decisions on your behalf, you make these decisions by electing him, he simply represents you when he makes these decisions. the way you put it absolves the voting public of their responsibility in the process. and the thread was started asking why we these decisions are being made in secret and hidden from the public that they represent. i cannot understand why you are ok with this. but i guess if you believe that it is the governments job to make decisions for us as opposed to representing our decisions, then i suppose that explains your post. all of your posts really.

    aerican was founded as a republic which means elected officials make decisions on our behalf. they speak for the people. you are free to vote for whomever you want. if you dont like it, you are free to go at anytime. sooner rather than later.
  • jlew24asu wrote:
    aerican was founded as a republic which means elected officials make decisions on our behalf. they speak for the people. you are free to vote for whomever you want. if you dont like it, you are free to go at anytime. sooner rather than later.


    You are not understanding what it is that I am saying. I said in my previous post that I realize america is a republic. What I am trying to understand is how we are supposed to know that the best decisions are being made for us. Take they're word for it? No. That is leaving too much to too few. They limit and hide information about decisions they make which makes it hard to determined if they are doing their job correctly. How can they speak for the people when the people don't even know what they're saying?
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    jlew24asu wrote:
    aerican was founded as a republic which means elected officials make decisions on our behalf. they speak for the people. you are free to vote for whomever you want. if you dont like it, you are free to go at anytime. sooner rather than later.

    You are voting for Arnold, right?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    You are not understanding what it is that I am saying. I said in my previous post that I realize america is a republic. What I am trying to understand is how we are supposed to know that the best decisions are being made for us. Take they're word for it? No. That is leaving too much to too few. They limit and hide information about decisions they make which makes it hard to determined if they are doing their job correctly. How can they speak for the people when the people don't even know what they're saying?


    I know I was repsonding to robbie. I understand where you are coming from. the only thing you can do is run for office. get elected. other then that, take care of yourself and your family. people here worry a bit too much.
  • jlew24asu wrote:
    I know I was repsonding to robbie. I understand where you are coming from. the only thing you can do is run for office. get elected. other then that, take care of yourself and your family. people here worry a bit too much.


    I'd never get elected. Way too honest!
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Robbin Williams should run for the White House.

    Anyone going to see his new movie?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus wrote:
    Robbin Williams should run for the White House.

    Anyone going to see his new movie?


    I'm waiting for it. when's it come out?
  • spongersponger Posts: 3,159
    That stuff eventually gets declassified and made into great books and movies.
  • sponger wrote:
    That stuff eventually gets declassified and made into great books and movies.


    The problem is the fifty year waiting period. By then it's way to late to realize you've been duped.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    I'm waiting for it. when's it come out?

    I'm not sure, he had his premier already. But I have no idea when it will be in theaters. I won't see it until it's on DVD, so let me know how it is.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus wrote:
    I'm not sure, he had his premier already. But I have no idea when it will be in theaters. I won't see it until it's on DVD, so let me know how it is.


    I will. So you don't like the movies heh? How come? The price? The crowd?


    (I can't give up the movie experience. I love it.)
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    I will. So you don't like the movies heh? How come? The price? The crowd?


    (I can't give up the movie experience. I love it.)

    I just don't think it's worth the effort of going out, spending the extra bucks and sitting in a cramped theater. With my luck, I get some big-hair freak in-front of me that screams the whole movie.

    I always remember the time I went to see Star Wars 2 with a friend and he was trying to force-lightening the guy infront of him. It was pretty embarassing.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    How can we, as a people, critique our government if a lot of what they do, how they come to decisions, how they handle situations, are so behind closed doors? How can we, as a people, decide if what they're doing is right and what we, again as a people, deems acceptable is they are done under black ops? The government works for us, we elect them. How can they put blinders onto our eyes and then not allow us to decide what is accpetable by OUR country? It makes no sense to me. They don't do it for our protection. They do it for their protection. They do it for their careers. I don't understand.
    They do it because we let them. Year after year, it gets worse and worse. And year after year, we re-hire the vast majority of these self-absorbed assholes. If the American people would just turn off the television for an hour and stop and actually THINK about what's going on, we could put a stop to it.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • Ahnimus wrote:
    I just don't think it's worth the effort of going out, spending the extra bucks and sitting in a cramped theater. With my luck, I get some big-hair freak in-front of me that screams the whole movie.

    I always remember the time I went to see Star Wars 2 with a friend and he was trying to force-lightening the guy infront of him. It was pretty embarassing.


    That's some pretty funny shit. There's this movie theatre around here that only has four movies at a time but tickets are always five bucks.

    I worked at a theatre during star wars as a concessionist and I swear I had ATLEAST five darth vaders try to do the jedi mind trick to get free popcorn.











    As for what you're saying hippiemom...I know. It's so damn frustrating but I really don't expect the people to pull off the blinders, communicate with each other, and to turn off the tube.
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    hippiemom wrote:
    They do it because we let them. Year after year, it gets worse and worse. And year after year, we re-hire the vast majority of these self-absorbed assholes. If the American people would just turn off the television for an hour and stop and actually THINK about what's going on, we could put a stop to it.


    so how exactly do we stop it? turn my TV off and think. got it.

    are democrats the answer? you wouldnt say they both are equally as corrupt?

    hippiemom, I respect your opinions. you are one of the few who try to stay somewhat respectful, i'm just trying to learn from you.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    jlew24asu wrote:
    so how exactly do we stop it? turn my TV off and think. got it.

    are democrats the answer? you wouldnt say they both are equally as corrupt?

    hippiemom, I respect your opinions. you are one of the few who try to stay somewhat respectful, i'm just trying to learn from you.

    Political reform, your two-party system sucks ass.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • jlew24asu wrote:
    so how exactly do we stop it? turn my TV off and think. got it.

    are democrats the answer? you wouldnt say they both are equally as corrupt?

    hippiemom, I respect your opinions. you are one of the few who try to stay somewhat respectful, i'm just trying to learn from you.


    What pisses me off is that more people vote on american idol than in NATIONAL PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS! That is mind blowing to me.
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Political reform, your two-party system sucks ass.


    I was talking to hippiemom, thanks for your useless opinion.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    What pisses me off is that more people vote on american idol than in NATIONAL PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS! That is mind blowing to me.

    I heard a single person can vote multiple times on American Idol. But I think the show basically sucks and I'm suprised anyone even watches it.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • 1970RR1970RR Posts: 281
    hippiemom wrote:
    They do it because we let them. Year after year, it gets worse and worse. And year after year, we re-hire the vast majority of these self-absorbed assholes. If the American people would just turn off the television for an hour and stop and actually THINK about what's going on, we could put a stop to it.
    Bingo! Here in PA, we have legislators that pass laws in the middle of the night, without any public input. They passed a huge slot-machine law like this and then tried to raise their pay by 16% to 54%. That last one finally got some people take notice and it cost several high-ranking Republicans their jobs. Hopefully, more will follow in November.
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    What pisses me off is that more people vote on american idol than in NATIONAL PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS! That is mind blowing to me.


    it is crazy but the majority of the people who vote on american idol are under 18 and cant vote for officals
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    jlew24asu wrote:
    I was talking to hippiemom, thanks for your useless opinion.

    Oh you are welcome. I have more to say. Vote for a multi-party system man, you will thank me in the end.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • I'll agree that alot of minors vote on american Idol but there are a lot of adults that vote on there too. I just don't understand how someone can care more about some shitty singer who they won't remember after they turn off the t.v than about whos running the country.


    As for the two party system...it does fucking suck. Too many people pay way too much attention to the titles. I say a no party system. That way we would all have to pay attention to their platforms instead of simply labeling them as a lying dem/rep.
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    jlew24asu wrote:
    so how exactly do we stop it? turn my TV off and think. got it.

    are democrats the answer? you wouldnt say they both are equally as corrupt?

    hippiemom, I respect your opinions. you are one of the few who try to stay somewhat respectful, i'm just trying to learn from you.
    I am not a democrat. Yes, the democrats nauseate me slightly less than do the republicans, but I'm hardly what you'd call a big fan.

    I don't have any illusions that it will actually happen, but I'd love to see everyone in the country vote against the incumbant, whichever party they come from, even the few that I think are head and shoulders above the rest. That would put the whole lot of them on notice that we're sick of this business as usual bullshit, we are finally paying attention, and we expect them all to work together to actually accomplish something that's good for US, not just good for Haliburton or ClearChannel or TimeWarner or whoever, and if they don't do it we won't hesitate to throw their asses out in two to six years either. They need to be reminded that they work for us, not the other way around.

    I'd like to see Americans by the millions demand public financing of campaigns in order to diminish the influence of corporations and lobbyists, and announce that they will never vote for any representative who doesn't support this and work towards it. The we follow through and actually don't vote for them.

    That's just a start, but I think you get the idea. Honestly though, I'm pessimistic. For the most part, I think the people on this board are involved and informed, but we're politics geeks and news junkies, we're not a representative sample. When I look around at my family, my friends, my co-workers, etc., it's very discouraging. Sadly, most of them make their voting decisions largely based on television ads, and as long as that's the case, it's hopeless. I don't know what it will take to shake this country out of it's stupor, but whatever it is, it hasn't happened yet.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    hippiemom wrote:
    I am not a democrat. Yes, the democrats nauseate me slightly less than do the republicans, but I'm hardly what you'd call a big fan.

    I don't have any illusions that it will actually happen, but I'd love to see everyone in the country vote against the incumbant, whichever party they come from, even the few that I think are head and shoulders above the rest. That would put the whole lot of them on notice that we're sick of this business as usual bullshit, we are finally paying attention, and we expect them all to work together to actually accomplish something that's good for US, not just good for Haliburton or ClearChannel or TimeWarner or whoever, and if they don't do it we won't hesitate to throw their asses out in two to six years either. They need to be reminded that they work for us, not the other way around.

    I'd like to see Americans by the millions demand public financing of campaigns in order to diminish the influence of corporations and lobbyists, and announce that they will never vote for any representative who doesn't support this and work towards it. The we follow through and actually don't vote for them.

    That's just a start, but I think you get the idea. Honestly though, I'm pessimistic. For the most part, I think the people on this board are involved and informed, but we're politics geeks and news junkies, we're not a representative sample. When I look around at my family, my friends, my co-workers, etc., it's very discouraging. Sadly, most of them make their voting decisions largely based on television ads, and as long as that's the case, it's hopeless. I don't know what it will take to shake this country out of it's stupor, but whatever it is, it hasn't happened yet.


    I hear what your sayin. maybe one day things will change around here. you have good logical ideas. for me, I don't think things are so bad. Like I said before, the anti-everything tone around here is depressing.
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