Stock market continues to fall...system nears collapse

musicismylife78

lost 2nd biggest point drop ever.

pretty stunning stuff.

Its laughable how some people are still like "its bad, but I wouldnt say its a recession".

yeah, its alot worse folks, its a depression.

this is the worst the economy has ever been since those fateful days in 1929.

When you have major banks bankrupted, and major corporations, titanic corporations like GM and GE and Borders and Circuit City all basically concluding that in a matter of weeks or months they could be done with, you have something beyond a mere "economic scare".

I have stated before, I have always thought the end of the system and the collapse of it all was happening soon. I have posted on this board as far back as 2003 and 2004 about how the war would cause the imminent collapse of society.

I got it wrong. Marx got it wrong. And alot of other communist's got it wrong. We all thought the collapse of the system and civilization would be brought down by workers and protestors who were pissed off and sick and tired of being exploited and killed and used as pawns.

the truth is, the system is collapsing and its not the result of a riot or protest or activists. the system is being brought down by its own greed.

Any system built on centuries of exploitation, rape, murder, lies and other misdeeds is one built on faulty ground from the start. A system built on the idea that the only way to grow and become better is to exploit, expand and colonize is one messed up ideal and way of life.

Marx thought it would collapse quickly after he wrote his manifesto. I thought it would occur in the months after war in Iraq was declared.

its happening right now...this is the new depression.

This is the beginning of the end. and it will become apparent as every day the dow loses more and more points.

things will get bad, worse than they are now. but its stunning to be alive at this point in history. the economy could be rebuilt and more money could be used for the bailout, but why? Why rebuild something so crooked currupt and wrong?

in_hiding79

We are all fucked!!

musicismylife78

in_hiding79 wrote:

We are all fucked!!

thats the funny thing. you hear people acting like it will all blow over and in a few months we will all be able to go back to buying our SUV's, and building more highways, ignoring the extinctions of more species of animals, more pollutants in our drinking water etc...

I dont want to continue that way of life. And plus, what gives people the idea things WILL get better? There is no evidence at all it will.

america is an empire. but never in history has an empire existed forever, and unchallenged.

this is just the natural course of events.

but lets just pray in a few weeks we can all max out our credit cards at the gap and abercrombie and fitch and wendy's! Then everything will be copasetic

rebornFixer

radiohead33 wrote:

thats the funny thing. you hear people acting like it will all blow over and in a few months we will all be able to go back to buying our SUV's, and building more highways, ignoring the extinctions of more species of animals, more pollutants in our drinking water etc...

I dont want to continue that way of life. And plus, what gives people the idea things WILL get better? There is no evidence at all it will.

america is an empire. but never in history has an empire existed forever, and unchallenged.

this is just the natural course of events.

but lets just pray in a few weeks we can all max out our credit cards at the gap and abercrombie and fitch and wendy's! Then everything will be copasetic

Not that I completely disagree with what you're saying, but what do you suggest people do instead of predicting that things will improve? Drink poisoned Kool-Aid? Wear an sandwich board and yell "THE END IS NIGH!!!!"?

rebornFixer

BTW, I'd love it if all the people on here who drone on about empires ending and Rome and all that actually added something of substance to all the doomsaying ... What do you think will happen if the "empire" ends? What would you like to see in its place? Is there any way to turn the dire predictions into something worth thinking about? I'd rather go to Wendy's than listen to some of you guys preach, quite frankly.

BetterThanYou

reborncareerist wrote:

BTW, I'd love it if all the people on here who drone on about empires ending and Rome and all that actually added something of substance to all the doomsaying ... What do you think will happen if the "empire" ends? What would you like to see in its place? Is there any way to turn the dire predictions into something worth thinking about? I'd rather go to Wendy's than listen to some of you guys preach, quite frankly.

it's what they live for, the end of it all, so they can say "i told you so!"

musicismylife78

reborncareerist wrote:

Not that I completely disagree with what you're saying, but what do you suggest people do instead of predicting that things will improve? Drink poisoned Kool-Aid? Wear an sandwich board and yell "THE END IS NIGH!!!!"?

read my posts, i have been known on this board as a ranting radical. I was suggesting as I said before, in 2003 that their was a revolution afoot and that people were rising up. I was wrong. And I changed my ways, I settled down (somewhat), tried out the commune lifestyle and have for almost 2 years now, lived a life of almost carefree "political tuneout and turnoff". So I have done both ways of life, the hyper political protest all the time phase, and the I dont care about anything political or activist oriented phase.

I am not suggesting people do anything. I am not out there with koolaid or a sandwich board. I am not at protests. But i just find it funny thats all. Drinking koolaid is just as ridiculous as suggesting "things will get better soon".

People acting as you describe at least would be more appropriate to the reality of the situation. things are horrific. not just bad.

People are hoping. Hoping things get better. Certainly, tomorrow the dow could go up and it could go up and up day after day.

my point is people want to continue this out of control lifestyle and existence.

Whats missing from EVERY major report on how we got into the economic mess, is a discussion on capitalism, consumerism and our excessive way of life, and how that contributes to a economic crisis. that to me is way more coherent a reason, than "oh the republicans are spending too much on the war" or "democrats are spending too much on welfare and social issues".

Its all of us, myself included. our way of life will have to change.

These crisis's always are eye openers. We can choose to heed their warning. that this is some sign that things need to change and slow down. that we cant continue to grow, and build and expand. that our way of life has gone out of control. or we can lie to ourselves, our children and our future generations.

Alarmist statements are always written off as ridiculous and the ravings of mad people. but sometimes those feelings have basis in fact.

rebornFixer

radiohead33 wrote:

read my posts, i have been known on this board as a ranting radical. I was suggesting as I said before, in 2003 that their was a revolution afoot and that people were rising up. I was wrong. And I changed my ways, I settled down (somewhat), tried out the commune lifestyle and have for almost 2 years now, lived a life of almost carefree "political tuneout and turnoff". So I have done both ways of life, the hyper political protest all the time phase, and the I dont care about anything political or activist oriented phase.

I am not suggesting people do anything. I am not out there with koolaid or a sandwich board. I am not at protests. But i just find it funny thats all. Drinking koolaid is just as ridiculous as suggesting "things will get better soon".

People acting as you describe at least would be more appropriate to the reality of the situation. things are horrific. not just bad.

People are hoping. Hoping things get better. Certainly, tomorrow the dow could go up and it could go up and up day after day.

my point is people want to continue this out of control lifestyle and existence.

Whats missing from EVERY major report on how we got into the economic mess, is a discussion on capitalism, consumerism and our excessive way of life, and how that contributes to a economic crisis. that to me is way more coherent a reason, than "oh the republicans are spending too much on the war" or "democrats are spending too much on welfare and social issues".

Its all of us, myself included. our way of life will have to change.

These crisis's always are eye openers. We can choose to heed their warning. that this is some sign that things need to change and slow down. that we cant continue to grow, and build and expand. that our way of life has gone out of control. or we can lie to ourselves, our children and our future generations.

Alarmist statements are always written off as ridiculous and the ravings of mad people. but sometimes those feelings have basis in fact.

Kudos to you for actually writing a solid response. Cheers! I feel the same way lately ... Changes are needed. What sort of changes, exactly, is open to debate.

musicismylife78

reborncareerist wrote:

BTW, I'd love it if all the people on here who drone on about empires ending and Rome and all that actually added something of substance to all the doomsaying ... What do you think will happen if the "empire" ends? What would you like to see in its place? Is there any way to turn the dire predictions into something worth thinking about? I'd rather go to Wendy's than listen to some of you guys preach, quite frankly.

You ever read my posts before. I envision the system collapse. people, kids, mothers, dads, grandparents, gathering shovels and equiptment and tearing up the roads and pavement and feeling the earth underneath. planting crops and food. millions of communes, all growing all their own food and self sustaining, each commune maybe 100-200 people each. egalitarian decision making. Protection of the remaining wildlife and animals. This would be the way of life I think will be REQUIRED.

you can either think about these dire predictions or do nothing. either way, it seems to me, I am not for, tearing down the system and rebuilding a new system. the system needs to be dismantled brick by brick.

Ways of life will need to change. people like you and me wont be going to PJ shows, and we wont be on computers. we wont be watching family guy reruns. we wont be rolling to walmart in our suburban. we wont be texting friends on our cellphones.

things will need to change.

covered in bliss

Save your comments about Fox News.... the comment is valid (and intelligent), ignore the source.

Someone said that the markets are sinking because of the polls... because Obama will most likely be the next President.

Is there any truth to the statement? Has this happened before?

dmitry

radiohead33 wrote:

You ever read my posts before. I envision the system collapse. people, kids, mothers, dads, grandparents, gathering shovels and equiptment and tearing up the roads and pavement and feeling the earth underneath. planting crops and food. millions of communes, all growing all their own food and self sustaining, each commune maybe 100-200 people each. egalitarian decision making. Protection of the remaining wildlife and animals. This would be the way of life I think will be REQUIRED.

Even if there is a total financial collapse 99.99% of people will not resort to self-sustaining communes unless they are prison camps. The best thing you can hope for is a collapse of the federal government and a new monetary system.

sponger

Don't think of it in terms of point declines. Think of it as percentage declines.

By the time Wall Street was done crashing in 1930, it had lost 85% of its volume. We're nowhere near that right now. I'm not saying it's impossible, but comparing the current circumstances to those of great depression is a stretch at this point in time.

The current US economy has too much infrastructure and resources to be compared to the economy of 80 years ago. The worst that will happen is that the dollar will become insanely inflated, at which point the government will probably reset the currency like it did with the Mexican peso about a decade or so ago. But, the droves of homeless, starving people are an unlikely event, however still probable.

I think we might see pensions completely wiped out, which will put an incredible strain on the system to support our retired elderly. That's definitely going to be a problem. If the economy survives, we might be looking at having to resort to the socialized system that most americans have long been dreading.

Also, I think we might see Phil Gramm get assassinated.

MattyJoe

You do not know what you are talking about. In 1929, millions of people lost all the money they had. Unemployment was at 20%. There were bread lines, hundreds of thousands of shanty towns all over the country with average middle class people who lost everything living in them. This is not at all at the scale of the 1929 collapse. You are buying into the massive hype and propaganda that the media has generated over this. Sure, it's bad. But it's not going to be the collapse of the system by any means.

It's important to keep in mind that, when the market had its largest point drop in history the other day, the market has grown immensely since 1929. With that huge drop we're still at the level that we were at around 2003, certainly not a meltdown. Proportionally, that drop was not even close to the drop suffered in 1929.

And yes, covered in bliss, it could very well be because of Obama. The threat of higher corporate taxes, which would do nothing but make our current problems worse, can weigh heavily on investors. However, most of the current fluctuations are being caused by stuff the Fed says, new reports that comes out. Anything really. Investors are scared, that's the problem. They can't be sure that their money will be safe.

mookeywrench

radiohead33 wrote:

And plus, what gives people the idea things WILL get better? There is no evidence at all it will.

apart from the recorded course of the stock market's history.

OffHeGoes29

We will be ok.......if not, I'm coming to your house to take your food and water....it will be like Mad Max beyond the Thunderdome here in CT. I'm going to make a suit made out of tire tread and spikes, and weld a bunch of steel plating to my truck to ram people with.

But I think we will be ok.

mookeywrench

MattyJoe wrote:

You do not know what you are talking about. In 1929, millions of people lost all the money they had. Unemployment was at 20%. There were bread lines, hundreds of thousands of shanty towns all over the country with average middle class people who lost everything living in them. This is not at all at the scale of the 1929 collapse. You are buying into the massive hype and propaganda that the media has generated over this. Sure, it's bad. But it's not going to be the collapse of the system by any means.

It's important to keep in mind that, when the market had its largest point drop in history the other day, the market has grown immensely since 1929. With that huge drop we're still at the level that we were at around 2003, certainly not a meltdown. Proportionally, that drop was not even close to the drop suffered in 1929.

And yes, covered in bliss, it could very well be because of Obama. The threat of higher corporate taxes, which would do nothing but make our current problems worse, can weigh heavily on investors. However, most of the current fluctuations are being caused by stuff the Fed says, new reports that comes out. Anything really. Investors are scared, that's the problem. They can't be sure that their money will be safe.

damn you with your rationality and logical sensibility!!!! Professor Chaos loses again!!!

seanw1010

reborncareerist wrote:

Not that I completely disagree with what you're saying, but what do you suggest people do instead of predicting that things will improve? Drink poisoned Kool-Aid? Wear an sandwich board and yell "THE END IS NIGH!!!!"?

i think the second one is a more progressive choice

stuckinline

so, does anyone have any ideas on how to solve this economic mess?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081024/ap_on_bi_st_ma_re/wall_street

NEW YORK – Wall Street has ended the week with another sharp loss, joining stock markets around the world that fell on the growing belief that a punishing economic recession is at hand.
It was a dramatic day on the Street, with the Dow Jones industrials falling more than 500 points soon after trading began, and, following the pattern of recent sessions, recovering ground only to fall sharply again. The blue chips ended the day down 312 points at the 8,378 level, while all the major indexes fell more than 3 percent.
Grim news from big global companies including Sony and Daimler, coming after disappointing outlooks from some big U.S. corporations, has investors believing there will be a long and deep global recession. The selling also came from hedge funds that had to unwind positions to pay back debts.

decides2dream

reborncareerist wrote:

Not that I completely disagree with what you're saying, but what do you suggest people do instead of predicting that things will improve? Drink poisoned Kool-Aid? Wear an sandwich board and yell "THE END IS NIGH!!!!"?

don't you know?
it's all just about spouting beliefs and pointing fingers...not about actually presenting actual solutions...:rolleyes:

*edit......i see it was somewhat 'addressed'.....mea culpa.......



btw - my father was alive during the great depression....and this is nothing like it. will it be? perhaps. time will tell. the system is cyclical, and it definitely is in a horrific downturn, but that is not to say it's guaranteed to be unable to right itself, with or without further aide. i do not pretend to be an economist to fully understand it all, but none the less.....recession, sure...depression......not yet......

DriftingByTheStorm

stuckinline wrote:

so, does anyone have any ideas on how to solve this economic mess?

Someone on CNBC today suggested a New Deal type recovery program where the government floats massive bonds and uses them to fund immigrants and low wage workers to rebuild american infrastructure, like roads and such.

I dunno.

Keynes would say we are already doing what we should be doing -- massive motherfucking inflation. So far we have already thrown around 3-5 trillion dollars at this thing, if you add up all the bailouts, and all the Fed liquidity injections, TAF auctions, swaps, etc etc etc.

We've got a lot of WAIT IT OUT to do just yet.
I see us meandering down to 7500 over the next month or so, and then sort of leveling off maybe back in to the 8000-9000 range for a year or so.

As far as the real economic consequences (unemployment, bankruptcies), there isn't much to do, imho.

We gonna have to suck it up.

polaris

what is the "true" unemployment rate in america? ... i could be wrong - but i understand that once a person has looked for work for a period of time - they no longer get counted ...

if that is true - what is the actual unemployment rate in america?

decides2dream

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

Someone on CNBC today suggested a New Deal type recovery program where the government floats massive bonds and uses them to fund immigrants and low wage workers to rebuild american infrastructure, like roads and such.

I dunno.

Keynes would say we are already doing what we should be doing -- massive motherfucking inflation. So far we have already thrown around 3-5 trillion dollars at this thing, if you add up all the bailouts, and all the Fed liquidity injections, TAF auctions, swaps, etc etc etc.

We've got a lot of WAIT IT OUT to do just yet.
I see us meandering down to 7500 over the next month or so, and then sort of leveling off maybe back in to the 8000-9000 range for a year or so.

As far as the real economic consequences (unemployment, bankruptcies), there isn't much to do, imho.

We gonna have to suck it up.

when i saw you posted, i was OH so curious to see your response! in all honesty...well said. i think it real is just that....*wait time*....and you bet, suck it up.


my husband and i were just discussing it all yesterday, especially the dismal view of our investments, retirement and just simply our own private nest egg, and you bet......wait time. we had a lot of 'plans' for the not-too-distant future, most definitely now on hold until things improve. if nothing else, i DO hope the past has taught us some lessons, and all out panic does not consume the markets. again...time will tell......




i enjoy all your posts drifting...but i do especially love your sensible posts.