why is there no counterculture?

musicismylife78

The country has been antiwar for years now. To be antiwar, isn’t something a hippie is, necessarily. The majority of the country is antiwar. Which presumably means straight-laced, non patchouli smelling people also are rabidly against the war.

I get the sense our generation is resigned to war. We may not like it, but we feel almost lethargic and apathetic in the face of the problems we face (war, global warming etc…). Out parents protest art was challenging and demanded the status quo change. I mean Dylan’s Blowin in the Wind or Masters of War aint mincing words people. Movies of the time like Punishment Park fit in this mold as well. My point is our parents created and listened and patronized art that was explicitly about shutting down the system and tearing it down. Contrast this with our generation. It’s the complete opposite.

You have a majority of the protest music about Iraq being merely ABOUT the war. Neil Young’s album is called LIVING with war, John Mayer writes “we are WAITING for the world to change, Pearl Jam’s avocado really wasn’t about Bush or politics as much as being about the effects war has on society and how people cope with it (being stressed out and unable to sleep- Unemployable, doing drugs-Severed Hand, and ultimately realizing you cant change the world unless you look at your personal issues-Inside Job). The majority of our generations Iraq war songs are about feelings, and have a certain amount of resignation in them. Arcade Fire’s Neon Bible is filled with angry songs about the state of our world, but it isn’t really suggesting people go out and storm the barricades. In fact, far from making the listener depressed about the state of the world, it makes the listener dance, tap their feet and fingers, and makes the listener happy.

So my question is, why hasn’t a cohesive counterculture made its presence felt? The hippies weren’t necessarily political, in fact they weren’t. Political radicals and hippies were starkly different back in our parents day. The radicals were out there on the barricades, trying to tear society down. The hippies, didn’t want to know a war was going on, they were about dropping out.

So a counterculture doesn’t have to be trying to change society. Why isn’t their a counterculture that has formed that is just that, fitting of our generation. A counterculture that espouses non engagement in activism and engagement in apathy and resignation to the world as it is. Why hasn’t that been formed?

So why hasn’t one formed in response to Iraq?

South of Seattle

I think the whole counter culture thing doesn't work today primarily due to marketing. I think if a big CC movement was taking place, companies and advertiser would exploit it just like they did with the "Grunge" Movement, Punk Movement and anything else. Once people start following a CC these days, then the originators are like fuck it, it's not Counter Culture anymore. I myself seem to think we've seen the last of the major movements such as the 70's and hippies and whatnot.

kenny olav

while you could draw parallels between Iraq and Vietnam, I think Iraq is much more complicated, and so the answer isn't as obvious. i don't think anyone really knows what would happen in a post-occupation Iraq. certainly, a lot could go wrong, and I don't think people trust either the U.S., the U.N. or the warring factions in Iraq to maintain stability in that region. with Vietnam, I think the "domino theory" worn thin very quickly, and it didn't take long for people to realize that lives were being wasted,

or maybe it was just that we had a draft during Vietnam, which made people think more critically about it.

but anyway, there is definitely a lot of apathy, but there is a lot of understandable confusion and anxiety as well.

all i know for sure is that Halliburton and other contractors are making a killing off this shit.

redsdisease

Some of us are fighting to end the war. But we're facing an uphill battle. The fact that there isn't a draft anymore is one of the biggest reasons. Like you said, during the Vietnam War, the draft brought the war home to people, made it real. However, more importantly, it increased the resentment within the military itself. This led to active revolt among the soldiers. Which was probably the biggest reason why the war actually ended.

If it bugs you, work to end it. If you're doing nothing, then you are being one of the "lethargic and apathetic" Americans that you describe.

And there is a lot of counterculture out there, however it is much smaller than the sixties counterculture or the punk scene of the seventies was. This is fine, because it can be more resistant to becoming a mockery of itself.

Counterculture won't stop wars, however. Regular society has to stand up to stop it.

DriftingByTheStorm

radiohead33 wrote:

The country has been antiwar for years now. To be antiwar, isn’t something a hippie is, necessarily. The majority of the country is antiwar. Which presumably means straight-laced, non patchouli smelling people also are rabidly against the war.

I get the sense our generation is resigned to war. We may not like it, but we feel almost lethargic and apathetic in the face of the problems we face (war, global warming etc…). Out parents protest art was challenging and demanded the status quo change. I mean Dylan’s Blowin in the Wind or Masters of War aint mincing words people. Movies of the time like Punishment Park fit in this mold as well. My point is our parents created and listened and patronized art that was explicitly about shutting down the system and tearing it down. Contrast this with our generation. It’s the complete opposite.

You have a majority of the protest music about Iraq being merely ABOUT the war. Neil Young’s album is called LIVING with war, John Mayer writes “we are WAITING for the world to change, Pearl Jam’s avocado really wasn’t about Bush or politics as much as being about the effects war has on society and how people cope with it (being stressed out and unable to sleep- Unemployable, doing drugs-Severed Hand, and ultimately realizing you cant change the world unless you look at your personal issues-Inside Job). The majority of our generations Iraq war songs are about feelings, and have a certain amount of resignation in them. Arcade Fire’s Neon Bible is filled with angry songs about the state of our world, but it isn’t really suggesting people go out and storm the barricades. In fact, far from making the listener depressed about the state of the world, it makes the listener dance, tap their feet and fingers, and makes the listener happy.

So my question is, why hasn’t a cohesive counterculture made its presence felt? The hippies weren’t necessarily political, in fact they weren’t. Political radicals and hippies were starkly different back in our parents day. The radicals were out there on the barricades, trying to tear society down. The hippies, didn’t want to know a war was going on, they were about dropping out.

So a counterculture doesn’t have to be trying to change society. Why isn’t their a counterculture that has formed that is just that, fitting of our generation. A counterculture that espouses non engagement in activism and engagement in apathy and resignation to the world as it is. Why hasn’t that been formed?

So why hasn’t one formed in response to Iraq?

Did anyone else read this and think this entire post was oddly circular? The answers come as facts before questions are asked. And then they come again as the questions themselves!

Green = Questions
Red= Your Own Answers

radiohead33 wrote:

I get the sense our generation is resigned to war. We may not like it, but we feel almost lethargic and apathetic in the face of the problems we face (war, global warming etc…).

Out parents protest art was challenging and demanded the status quo change. I mean Dylan’s Blowin in the Wind or Masters of War aint mincing words people. Movies of the time like Punishment Park fit in this mold as well. My point is our parents created and listened and patronized art that was explicitly about shutting down the system and tearing it down. Contrast this with our generation. It’s the complete opposite.

You have a majority of the protest music about Iraq being merely ABOUT the war. Neil Young’s album is called LIVING with war, John Mayer writes “we are WAITING for the world to change, Pearl Jam’s avocado really wasn’t about Bush or politics as much as being about the effects war has on society and how people cope with it (being stressed out and unable to sleep- Unemployable, doing drugs-Severed Hand, and ultimately realizing you cant change the world unless you look at your personal issues-Inside Job). The majority of our generations Iraq war songs are about feelings, and have a certain amount of resignation in them. Arcade Fire’s Neon Bible is filled with angry songs about the state of our world, but it isn’t really suggesting people go out and storm the barricades. In fact, far from making the listener depressed about the state of the world, it makes the listener dance, tap their feet and fingers, and makes the listener happy.

So my question is, why hasn’t a cohesive counterculture made its presence felt?

So a counterculture doesn’t have to be trying to change society. Why isn’t their a counterculture that has formed that is just that, fitting of our generation. A counterculture that espouses non engagement in activism and engagement in apathy and resignation to the world as it is. Why hasn’t that been formed?

So why hasn’t one formed in response to Iraq?

I'm not gonna really go further looking at the bizzare circularness of this post ... but you do realize what you are asking right?

First, you are suggesting that the primary difference between "our" generation and "their" generation is that they actualy cared about trying to fix something and that we are resigned and lazy ... even though you concede that they were the ones that first thought of dropping out.

Already you are recognizing a duality ... where there is a counterculure that does nothing but drugs and ignore reality, and another that confronts it head on.

Those to "counterculture" forms still exist today ... one is just the mainstream now ... and that of course is the ignorance, drugs, television, do nothing, express my feelings, ME ME ME cuture!

The hardcore protestor, NWO activist, politicaly involved is a rare breed thesedays ... i say "rare breed" because they have literaly been deliberately bred out of the system BY the system for the sake of the system ... it is self selective that way ... recursive ... a negative feed back loop ...

You want the answer to why there is no cohesive counterculture of apathy and disenchantment?

Uh ... you are staring at it ... the internet is probably the perennial woodstock of appthetic and disenchanted collectivism.

Bottom line, what your searching for does exist explicitly. You asked for it by name, and then vividly described it.

People, MOST of them are either too lazy and apathetic (and bred stupid!) to even think about these issues (like the war).
The REST are JUST motivated and sympathetic enough to GO TO THE INTERNET and bitch about it ... besides that, add them back in the lazy and apathetic camp.

Hey ... what more did you want from post-modern society?

Honestly, there are some pretty extraordinary people doing some extraordinary things if you look hard enough ... but "it takes one to know one" is truth ... and if waht your seeing is laziness and apathy, that is what you will attract ...

This is not a jab at you.
This is universal truth, and something i'm guessing every self-actualized person on this board (and in life) struggles with on a daily basis.

The struggle between the inertia of your own personal consciousness and your own perception of what is true, noble and just is probably one of the greatest struggles of all life. [i sound like a two bit buddha. lol]

sponger

Because if we were any more radical, we'd be communitsts.

The 60's counterculture was in response to a sickenly conservative environment that was rife with latent racism, sexism, and a whole bunch of other nasty shit that is all but outlawed now.

What's left is healthcare and all the other shit that's already being talked about.

My3rdEye

radiohead33 wrote:

The country has been antiwar for years now. To be antiwar, isn’t something a hippie is, necessarily. The majority of the country is antiwar. Which presumably means straight-laced, non patchouli smelling people also are rabidly against the war.

I get the sense our generation is resigned to war. We may not like it, but we feel almost lethargic and apathetic in the face of the problems we face (war, global warming etc…). Out parents protest art was challenging and demanded the status quo change. I mean Dylan’s Blowin in the Wind or Masters of War aint mincing words people. Movies of the time like Punishment Park fit in this mold as well. My point is our parents created and listened and patronized art that was explicitly about shutting down the system and tearing it down. Contrast this with our generation. It’s the complete opposite.

You have a majority of the protest music about Iraq being merely ABOUT the war. Neil Young’s album is called LIVING with war, John Mayer writes “we are WAITING for the world to change, Pearl Jam’s avocado really wasn’t about Bush or politics as much as being about the effects war has on society and how people cope with it (being stressed out and unable to sleep- Unemployable, doing drugs-Severed Hand, and ultimately realizing you cant change the world unless you look at your personal issues-Inside Job). The majority of our generations Iraq war songs are about feelings, and have a certain amount of resignation in them. Arcade Fire’s Neon Bible is filled with angry songs about the state of our world, but it isn’t really suggesting people go out and storm the barricades. In fact, far from making the listener depressed about the state of the world, it makes the listener dance, tap their feet and fingers, and makes the listener happy.

So my question is, why hasn’t a cohesive counterculture made its presence felt? The hippies weren’t necessarily political, in fact they weren’t. Political radicals and hippies were starkly different back in our parents day. The radicals were out there on the barricades, trying to tear society down. The hippies, didn’t want to know a war was going on, they were about dropping out.

So a counterculture doesn’t have to be trying to change society. Why isn’t their a counterculture that has formed that is just that, fitting of our generation. A counterculture that espouses non engagement in activism and engagement in apathy and resignation to the world as it is. Why hasn’t that been formed?

So why hasn’t one formed in response to Iraq?

Everything is fine. Keep on working.

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun

simple. there is no draft. the fact is this war hasnt really affected many americans on a personal level. It hasnt affected mine. Nobody really gives a shit until it affects them personally.

no draft = no rioting in the streets





oh and flower power didnt work anyway.

ledvedderman

Two words...no draft

farfromglorified

For a counterculture to exist, there must be a group of people who embrace a philosophy diametrically opposed to that of the dominant culture. Many countercultures exist to the dominant establishment -- they just aren't very large in comparison to those that emerged out of the Civil rights movements and the wars of the middle part of the last century. Today, the average anti-war citizen isn't philosophically opposed to the dominant strata. If anything, they're likely part of that dominant strata. They simply have aesthetic policy disagreements amongst themselves.

cornnifer

radiohead33 wrote:

The country has been antiwar for years now. To be antiwar, isn’t something a hippie is, necessarily. The majority of the country is antiwar. Which presumably means straight-laced, non patchouli smelling people also are rabidly against the war.

What? You have have a problem with patchouli or somethin'?

MasterFramer

ledvedderman wrote:

Two words...no draft

Some more words... iPods, MySpace, Cell Phones, Texting, Reality TV, Celebrities... people are too disconnected to care

RolandTD20Kdrummer

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

Did anyone else read this and think this entire post was oddly circular? The answers come as facts before questions are asked. And then they come again as the questions themselves!

Green = Questions
Red= Your Own Answers

Drifting, I gotta say you're a very perceptive individual.

It must be from looking at all those numbers all the time, and seeing what other people don't see.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

America has a communist govt' right now, and it's the worst kind of communism at that (no bid contracts to transition wealth away from the public with no intervention by congress). the whole democratic structure and concept thereof has been raped.

Now the lens of scrutiny has been turned inward, and continues to increase it's intensity regularly at that.

People are scared, and the rest are being distracted and/or fooled.

It's not a pretty situation.

farfromglorified

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

America has a communist govt' right now, and it's the worst kind of communism at that (no bid contracts to transition wealth away from the public with no intervention by congress). the whole democratic structure and concept thereof has been raped.

America has an Keynesian government right now. And if you think this is "the worst kind of communism", you need to get out more.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

farfromglorified wrote:

America has an Keynesian government right now. And if you think this is "the worst kind of communism", you need to get out more.

Well I guess they could start rounding people up into labor camps, or pull a Pol Pot scenario. What did you have in mind?

farfromglorified

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Well I guess they could start rounding people up into labor camps, or pull a Pol Pot scenario. What did you have in mind?

There's that, there's the complete control of exchange, there's the absolute limits on corporate and personal profit, there's the violent repression of dissent, there's the elimination of private property. There are a whole lot of things that are hallmarks of a communist nation that do not happen to a great extent here.

Not to defend this country and its rampant stupidity, but referring to it as "communist" is pretty silly.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

farfromglorified wrote:

There's that, there's the complete control of exchange, there's the absolute limits on corporate and personal profit, there's the violent repression of dissent, there's the elimination of private property. There are a whole lot of things that are hallmarks of a communist nation that do not happen to a great extent here.

Not to defend this country and its rampant stupidity, but referring to it as "communist" is pretty silly.

ok then "one of" the worst kinds of communism not the worst. Hardly makes me feel any better about it...hehe

Anyhow induced poverty indirect touches on a lot of those aspects as well. Repression of dissent is already here in varying degrees.

farfromglorified

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

ok then "one of" the worst kinds of communism not the worst. Hardly makes me feel any better about it...hehe

Hehe...ok...can you name me a "better kind" of communism????

Anyhow induced poverty indirect touches on a lot of those aspects as well.

You'll have to explain that.

Repression of dissent is already here in varying degrees.

Relax, cowboy. That "degree" here is about 1 degree. In a communist country, it's a boiling point. I always find it ironic when someone posts "MY DISSENT IS BEING REPRESSED - THIS COUNTRY SUCKS" on a fucking public message board housed in that same country. Are you holed out in a bunker somewhere?