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Kurt Cobain and feminism

musicismylife78musicismylife78 Posts: 6,116
edited October 2006 in A Moving Train
Whatever people say about his music or his death on this board is reguardless to this post here. I am wanting to discuss Kurt's feminism. Just got out of a Violence Against Women course. A group presented a report on violence in the media, or exploitation of women in media and the inherent violence in that. They showed images of women in ads and stuff, and it was gross. I am in total agreement that the media and our society exploits women. But as a soundtrack this group played "rape me" in the background. This song is anti-rape, is prowomen and pro women's rights. Kurt himself was very much a feminist. A Nirvana shirt a few years ago had a page torn from his journal that listed things he felt everyone should do. One was to be a feminist and not to ever harm a woman. The few clips of the new Kurt documentary features Kurt talking about why he is so angry. He mentions he is pissed off at men who rape.

This disturbed me because the group presenting this acted like this song was prorape. They included it along side mysogynitic lyrics from songs off Dr dre's the chronic, and other such songs.

Similarly they suggested that the horror film American Psycho was explotiative of women.

The movie was directed by a woman, who decided to focus on materialism and capitalism in that movie instead of a more gory movie.

Anyone feel I am off base here? Shouldnt Kurt's feminism be more widely talked about? Sure he had some bad qualities, and some here dont like his music, but surely this cause, women's rights, is one that deserves being recognized
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  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    i don't know if the fact that Kurt was against rape automatically gives him clout as a feminist. I think the saddest part of the story was taht they people could have done a quick google search and realized the song was anti-rape. I think that his views on rape should be discussed when talking about him, but I don't think we should elevate him to some womans savior level. His views on rape reflect about 99.9% of the populations views so it's like trying to salvage something from a lost career.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    I do love his Incesticide Linear notes. Kurt was great, I wish he coulda gotten his life together.
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    I remember reading an interview with Weiland back when their first record came out, and he was horrified at some of the response that he was getting to "Sex Type Thing," he couldn't believe that anyone could think he was pro-rape. And I know Kurt discussed "Polly" and said much the same thing.

    The problem, I think, is that only a very miniscule percentage of the total population has ever read an interview with Kurt or with Weiland. Most people are vaguely aware of Kurt and probably don't even know Weiland exists. When you spend as much time as we do on a music message board, that's easy to forget. We can talk about Kurt's feminism all we want, but anyone who cares what Kurt Cobain thought already knows, and most other people will just tune it out because he doesn't interest them.

    When you write a song like "Rape Me," you HAVE to recognize that someone, somewhere is going to misinterpret it. A person who isn't a Nirvana fan that hears it on a jukebox isn't going to give any great thought to the lyrics and what they might mean, they're going to think "Jesus Christ, the dude's singing a rape song!" and either be horrified or titillated by it.

    I'm not saying the songs shouldn't be written. People should absolutely sing whatever they want to sing. Those who hear them the way the artists intended them to be heard will have something to think about and might have their awareness raised a bit. But to think that no one will take it at absolute face value without giving it much thought is a bit naive.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    I like Kurt and his music. He is the new king by the way. Beat out Elvis for record sales of dead artists.

    Anyway, If you don't know my stance on feminism, I don't like it. I like equalism, or egalitarianism, which is centred around rights for everyone and not just women.

    I never considered the song "Rape Me" to be pro-rape, but then I just liked the song, I didn't care what it was about.

    The idea that Kurt was a feminist may be a bit far-fetched, but if he was, I'd argue it was one of his bad qualities.

    Everyone is objectified on television, in song and in ads. It's no different for men. Taking one situational position such as feminism neglects that objectification exists for both genders. Essentially, if you say "protecting women's rights" then you are targetting? Men? How about the women that objectify men, or women that objectify other women? These concepts of feminism vs masculism are just more examples of inequality, it's an ongoing battle of the sexes, accomplishing almost nothing without adverse effects.

    In our modern soceity, in which we boast equality and fairness, we don't need feminism or masculism, we need equalism.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • moeaholicmoeaholic Posts: 535
    hippiemom wrote:
    I remember reading an interview with Weiland back when their first record came out, and he was horrified at some of the response that he was getting to "Sex Type Thing," he couldn't believe that anyone could think he was pro-rape. And I know Kurt discussed "Polly" and said much the same thing.

    The problem, I think, is that only a very miniscule percentage of the total population has ever read an interview with Kurt or with Weiland. Most people are vaguely aware of Kurt and probably don't even know Weiland exists. When you spend as much time as we do on a music message board, that's easy to forget. We can talk about Kurt's feminism all we want, but anyone who cares what Kurt Cobain thought already knows, and most other people will just tune it out because he doesn't interest them.

    When you write a song like "Rape Me," you HAVE to recognize that someone, somewhere is going to misinterpret it. A person who isn't a Nirvana fan that hears it on a jukebox isn't going to give any great thought to the lyrics and what they might mean, they're going to think "Jesus Christ, the dude's singing a rape song!" and either be horrified or titillated by it.

    I'm not saying the songs shouldn't be written. People should absolutely sing whatever they want to sing. Those who hear them the way the artists intended them to be heard will have something to think about and might have their awareness raised a bit. But to think that no one will take it at absolute face value without giving it much thought is a bit naive.

    one thing that really bugs the shit out of me about scott weiland is a lot of the interviews i've heard him do, he's chewing a huge wad of gum at the same time. it's almost impossible for him to talk around it.
    "PC Load Letter?! What the fuck does that mean?"
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  • prytocorduroyprytocorduroy Posts: 4,355
    Isn't Rape Me in the perspective of a woman? I guess that doesn't make a difference but the way it's sung doesn't sound joyful in any way. Some people need to open their fucking ears.
  • spongersponger Posts: 3,159
    The song is pro-rape. That is, it's pro-jailhouse rape. If I remember his mtv interview correctly, the song is about how ironic, yet fitting it is that rapists are targeted for rape themselves when they end up in jail. In terms of his feminism...he played with dolls. I'd say that makes him a feminist.
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  • Uncle LeoUncle Leo Posts: 1,059
    hippiemom wrote:
    I remember reading an interview with Weiland back when their first record came out, and he was horrified at some of the response that he was getting to "Sex Type Thing," he couldn't believe that anyone could think he was pro-rape. And I know Kurt discussed "Polly" and said much the same thing.

    The problem, I think, is that only a very miniscule percentage of the total population has ever read an interview with Kurt or with Weiland. Most people are vaguely aware of Kurt and probably don't even know Weiland exists. When you spend as much time as we do on a music message board, that's easy to forget. We can talk about Kurt's feminism all we want, but anyone who cares what Kurt Cobain thought already knows, and most other people will just tune it out because he doesn't interest them.

    When you write a song like "Rape Me," you HAVE to recognize that someone, somewhere is going to misinterpret it. A person who isn't a Nirvana fan that hears it on a jukebox isn't going to give any great thought to the lyrics and what they might mean, they're going to think "Jesus Christ, the dude's singing a rape song!" and either be horrified or titillated by it.

    I'm not saying the songs shouldn't be written. People should absolutely sing whatever they want to sing. Those who hear them the way the artists intended them to be heard will have something to think about and might have their awareness raised a bit. But to think that no one will take it at absolute face value without giving it much thought is a bit naive.

    Sex-Type Thing is a perfect example of how a songwriter must be careful because people cannot read between the lines.

    I think that Matchbox 20 took some heat over "push" becasue it said "I wanna push you down..." and thought it was pro domestic-violence or something.

    Then there was Reagan thinking that "Born in the USA" was a flag-waving nationalistic song. I'm sure a lot of people thought that, though.

    There are always going to be people that refuse to delve in at all
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  • SweetHarmonicsSweetHarmonics Posts: 290
    I'm under the impression that 'Rape Me' is about the music industry and their exploitative ways. The part that contains "my favorite inside source" is specifically indicting Soundgarden's manager and how that person was thought to be the source for a bunch of the untruth's printed in the infamous Vanity Fair article.
    hate was just a legend
  • Vedderlution_BabyVedderlution_Baby Posts: 2,535
    that's like people thinking betterman is a love song. Some people just don't pay attention.
  • IgottagoIgottago Posts: 483
    SweetHarmonics wrote:
    I'm under the impression that 'Rape Me' is about the music industry and their exploitative ways. The part that contains "my favorite inside source" is specifically indicting Soundgarden's manager and how that person was thought to be the source for a bunch of the untruth's printed in the infamous Vanity Fair article.

    It clearly is a reaction to the music industry..but the strange thing is, i've seen/read cobain interviews where he says the song is a reaction to rape and violence against women as well..maybe its a combination of both
  • OutOfBreathOutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I like Kurt and his music. He is the new king by the way. Beat out Elvis for record sales of dead artists.

    Anyway, If you don't know my stance on feminism, I don't like it. I like equalism, or egalitarianism, which is centred around rights for everyone and not just women.

    I never considered the song "Rape Me" to be pro-rape, but then I just liked the song, I didn't care what it was about.

    The idea that Kurt was a feminist may be a bit far-fetched, but if he was, I'd argue it was one of his bad qualities.

    Everyone is objectified on television, in song and in ads. It's no different for men. Taking one situational position such as feminism neglects that objectification exists for both genders. Essentially, if you say "protecting women's rights" then you are targetting? Men? How about the women that objectify men, or women that objectify other women? These concepts of feminism vs masculism are just more examples of inequality, it's an ongoing battle of the sexes, accomplishing almost nothing without adverse effects.

    In our modern soceity, in which we boast equality and fairness, we don't need feminism or masculism, we need equalism.
    I second that sentiment. But considering how women usually are more objectified, are more unequally treated and are in many ways worse off, won't a beginning equalism have to start out as feminism? But "equalism" as an ultimate goal sounds good to me.

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    Vedderlution_Baby! wrote:
    that's like people thinking betterman is a love song. Some people just don't pay attention.

    That's like people thinking songs have the same meaning for everyone. Just look at all the interpretations of "Rape Me" in this thread. Some people just don't pay attention.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Vedderlution_BabyVedderlution_Baby Posts: 2,535
    know1 wrote:
    That's like people thinking songs have the same meaning for everyone. Just look at all the interpretations of "Rape Me" in this thread. Some people just don't pay attention.


    are you saying that betterman can be taken as a love song?
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    Vedderlution_Baby! wrote:
    are you saying that betterman can be taken as a love song?

    Not specifically in that post, but I definitely believe that it can. It can be taken as a song about a lump of coal if that's what the listener imagines. It really surprises me that people are always trying to define a song for everyone else.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Vedderlution_BabyVedderlution_Baby Posts: 2,535
    know1 wrote:
    Not specifically in that post, but I definitely believe that it can. It can be taken as a song about a lump of coal if that's what the listener imagines. It really surprises me that people are always trying to define a song for everyone else.


    Well, I say once the artist defines the song's meaning...that pretty much does it. But I suppose for a "average" fan who hears the song but doesn't listen, it can be taken as something else.
  • memememe Posts: 4,695
    When I came back from the Verona show I proudly showed my 6year old the butterfly poster for the Italian shows.
    He was horrified... "mom... the butterfly is made of GUNS!"... and he still hates the London poster. I told him about sarcasm and art as sometimes a means to social criticism (well, didn't use those words :p). Sad thing is... many people have the brain of a 6 year old. I enjoy art that grabs you and disturbs you to convey a message, but you have to pay attention and use your brain, which is not something that most people do.
    ... and the will to show I will always be better than before.
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    SweetHarmonics wrote:
    I'm under the impression that 'Rape Me' is about the music industry and their exploitative ways. The part that contains "my favorite inside source" is specifically indicting Soundgarden's manager and how that person was thought to be the source for a bunch of the untruth's printed in the infamous Vanity Fair article.

    ah yes soundgarden manager susan silver, chris cornell's wife at the time. :)

    actually i never thought 'rape me' was about sexual rape.
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  • Vedderlution_BabyVedderlution_Baby Posts: 2,535
    meme wrote:
    When I came back from the Verona show I proudly showed my 6year old the butterfly poster for the Italian shows.
    He was horrified... "mom... the butterfly is made of GUNS!"... and he still hates the London poster. I told him about sarcasm and art as sometimes a means to social criticism (well, didn't use those words :p). Sad thing is... many people have the brain of a 6 year old. I enjoy art that grabs you and disturbs you to convey a message, but you have to pay attention and use your brain, which is not something that most people do.


    You got a place where I can look at a picture of that? That sounds badass.
  • memememe Posts: 4,695
    Vedderlution_Baby! wrote:
    You got a place where I can look at a picture of that? That sounds badass.

    London or Italian shows?

    I honestly had not even noticed that the butterfly was made of guns :o

    here's London

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/ggatta/21d8b555.jpg

    Anyone have a link to the butterfly? Otherwise I'll take a picture of mine, but it's not framed yet
    ... and the will to show I will always be better than before.
  • reeferchiefreeferchief Posts: 3,569
    More interestingly do you find it amazingly ironic that Chad Kroger who rips of nirvana and has gone on paper as saying if it wasnt for Nirvana and Kurt that nickleback would'nt exist is a chauvinistic pig who degrades women in many of his lyrics?
    Can not be arsed with life no more.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    Vedderlution_Baby! wrote:
    Well, I say once the artist defines the song's meaning...that pretty much does it. But I suppose for a "average" fan who hears the song but doesn't listen, it can be taken as something else.

    Oh come on! Just because the artist says it's one thing, doesn't mean that the listener is bound to that. Have some imagination...
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Vedderlution_BabyVedderlution_Baby Posts: 2,535
    know1 wrote:
    Oh come on! Just because the artist says it's one thing, doesn't mean that the listener is bound to that. Have some imagination...


    Well I never thought it was a love song but I'm sure I hold different meanings to songs that other people would be like "What the hell?" so yea, nothing is simply this and that.
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    reeferchief wrote:
    More interestingly do you find it amazingly ironic that Chad Kroger who rips of nirvana and has gone on paper as saying if it wasnt for Nirvana and Kurt that nickleback would'nt exist is a chauvinistic pig who degrades women in many of his lyrics?

    maybe not amazingly ironic reefer, but i do find it incredibly offensive.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Vedderlution_BabyVedderlution_Baby Posts: 2,535
    catefrances wrote:
    maybe not amazingly ironic reefer, but i do find it incredibly offensive.


    No shit. Some people just shouldnt be allowed in public.
  • memememe Posts: 4,695
    here you go... pro-war pearljam poster ;)

    http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v627/ggatta/?action=view&current=ferite.jpg&refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch1
    ... and the will to show I will always be better than before.
  • Vedderlution_BabyVedderlution_Baby Posts: 2,535
    meme wrote:
    here you go... pro-war pearljam poster ;)

    http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v627/ggatta/?action=view&current=ferite.jpg&refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch1
    Damn! Very nice!
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    pretty butterfly of war. :)
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Vedderlution_BabyVedderlution_Baby Posts: 2,535
    I just want to make sure I'm getting this right. The dude from nickelback is saying that the reason they're a bunch of asshole, no brained, cock jock pigs is because of Kurt cobain and Nirvana? Did I get that right?
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    Vedderlution_Baby! wrote:
    I just want to make sure I'm getting this right. The dude from nickelback is saying that the reason they're a bunch of asshole, no brained, cock jock pigs is because of Kurt cobain and Nirvana? Did I get that right?

    i guess he's saying nirvana were an influence on them in the beginning. and perhaps nirvana were. but i think the message got lost in translation.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
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