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Clinton and Obama

musicismylife78musicismylife78 Posts: 6,116
edited April 2007 in A Moving Train
Why do people laugh at you or ridicule those of us who voted for Nader in 00 or 04, and act like voting for a third party is throwing a vote away, or is voting by default for bush.

Yet people are in this love affair with the cult of personality of obama.

Why do people act like a woman and a black male are electable but a radical leftie isnt?

Isnt voting for a black man or a female in a racist and sexist country throwing a vote away?

I am voting for the candidate who will pull all the troops out and end the war. Yet democrats still continue this same old gag. They continue to sell us crap and say "we can still win the war, we just need a new leader". Bull crap!

The war is lost. Bring the goddamn troops home and end the war.

How hard is it for people to understand that>

And how is the democratic platform any different than the republican platform

One could argue Chuck hagel is more radical than any of the other democrats running, except for kucinich.

its a sad state of affairs when the opposition party is really the same party as the republicans.

Again I ask you, why is voting for Nader or Kucinich considered a wasted vote, but acting like a black male and white female is electable in a racist and sexist society, thats acceptable, why is this so?
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Comments

  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    I vote 3rd party (although I'd never vote for Nader), so I didn't laugh at people voting for Nader, I laughed at people who thought Nader had a chance to win.

    Most people knew he didn't, and were doing it to send a message. I totally get that.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    Who knows? People complain about things never changing but turn around and ensure it never does. Go figure.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    i read in the paper today that the other day she 'declined' to detail her health care plan...ppl like obama say they are for a nationalized system but somehow wants to work the for profit insurance companies into it...? companies like kaiser are worried about making money more than health care and cut corners, deny treatment, use pdr's that are a few years old...why should they be worked into it? i thought the point was to fix the problem and make actual progress? but then pro is the opposite of con
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • spongersponger Posts: 3,159
    Cheguevara6 wrote:
    Again I ask you, why is voting for Nader or Kucinich considered a wasted vote, but acting like a black male and white female is electable in a racist and sexist society, thats acceptable, why is this so?


    ..because americans hate hippies more than they hate blacks and women.
    reigning champion

    http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
  • AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    sponger wrote:
    ..because americans hate hippies more than they hate blacks and women.

    America secretly fucking loves hippies and it's seeping out slowly but surely!
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • mohomoho Posts: 541
    sponger wrote:
    ..because americans hate hippies more than they hate blacks and women.



    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    JUST PLAY THE F***ING NOTE!!!
  • ledveddermanledvedderman Posts: 7,761
    El_Kabong wrote:
    ppl like obama say they are for a nationalized system but somehow wants to work the for profit insurance companies into it

    So you would rather he come out and say we want to eliminate insurance companies and the tens of thousands of employees who work in that field? I'm all for national health care, but I don't think there is anything wrong w/ trying to work w/ the current insurance companies into the plan. Any form of national health care would be light years ahead of where we are now.
    E8toX.gif

    http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
  • Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    The same people do it on the right as well Che, ultimately, until people start voting intelligently on issues they feel passionate about like say you did with Nader nothing is going to change. Voting is about the only voice you have, why the hell would you vote for someone because they have a D or an R by thier name? Vote for them because you feel they are the best canidate for the job. Hell, now all the D's and the R's do is pander to this or that "base".
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    ledvedderman wrote:
    So you would rather he come out and say we want to eliminate insurance companies and the tens of thousands of employees who work in that field? I'm all for national health care, but I don't think there is anything wrong w/ trying to work w/ the current insurance companies into the plan. Any form of national health care would be light years ahead of where we are now.


    no, but i don't think we have to have the for profit insurance companies at the forefront of our mind when we plan this...kinda like saying 'well if war ends what about those jobs making the weapons!?' if something is shown to not really work why keep it?

    'Democratic Sens. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama both have pressed for universal health care in the next decade but have laid out few specifics.'

    "Private insurers like Blue Cross Blue Shield and Aetna would compete to provide coverage to participants" - Barack Obama
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • normnorm Posts: 31,146
    Pacomc79 wrote:
    The same people do it on the right as well Che, ultimately, until people start voting intelligently on issues they feel passionate about like say you did with Nader nothing is going to change. Voting is about the only voice you have, why the hell would you vote for someone because they have a D or an R by thier name? Vote for them because you feel they are the best canidate for the job. Hell, now all the D's and the R's do is pander to this or that "base".

    Well said. Until the sheeple of this country stop feeding on whatever the media decides to give them we will always have career politicians running this country.
  • SweetHarmonicsSweetHarmonics Posts: 290
    unrealistic whining
    hate was just a legend
  • AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    SweetHarmonics wrote:
    unrealistic whining

    Anytime you'd like to join the debate....
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • SweetHarmonicsSweetHarmonics Posts: 290
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    the debate....

    this term gets thrown around much too freely

    the CTRL+V style shouldn't be mistaken for debate
    hate was just a legend
  • AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    SweetHarmonics wrote:
    this term gets thrown around much too freely

    the CTRL+V style shouldn't be mistaken for debate

    I see plenty of debate here....backed with history, quotes, articles, facts...what have you. That's how you create a well informed opinion. Or you can just make stuff up in your head so it will all seem ok and peachy. Whatever works best for you.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    El_Kabong wrote:
    no, but i don't think we have to have the for profit insurance companies at the forefront of our mind when we plan this...kinda like saying 'well if war ends what about those jobs making the weapons!?' if something is shown to not really work why keep it?

    'Democratic Sens. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama both have pressed for universal health care in the next decade but have laid out few specifics.'

    "Private insurers like Blue Cross Blue Shield and Aetna would compete to provide coverage to participants" - Barack Obama
    I agree with you that the well-being of the insurance companies should not be our primary concern. I take a backseat to no one in my dislike of insurance companies, and I think that in the ideal system they would not exist. They serve no particular function except to add a layer of paper-shufflers that need to be paid, a layer of stockholders that need to be paid, thereby increasing costs while doing nothing to increase health. Kucinich is the only candidate calling for a system that doesn't involve them at all, and I'm very sympathetic towards his view. It is absolutely the sort of system I think we should have.

    On the other hand, I am a realist. We may eventually have a system that does not involve for-profit companies, but we're not going to have it any time soon. Americans are not going to support a wholesale overhaul of the entire system, and if they did begin to show signs of supporting one, the insurers would be running ads around the clock portraying a single-payer system as a disaster of biblical proportions, and a good number of people would be frightened enough by this to back off in their support. I think that Clinton and Obama are pragmatists ... they may or may not, in their heart of hearts, want single-payer health care, but they know that it's not possible to have it right now. We do have to settle for gradual moves in that direction, it's the only hope of ever getting there at all.

    I know you don't like it, I don't like it myself, but that's the reality of the American political system.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • SweetHarmonicsSweetHarmonics Posts: 290
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Or you can just make stuff up in your head so it will all seem ok and peachy. Whatever works best for you.

    wow, way to reach for the baseless attack button

    Logically there is a bit of a difference between citing a source and completely pasting an article or, even worse, pawning off the recycled ideas of others as something original. The practice isn't limited to any one place though it does become tiring after a while.
    hate was just a legend
  • AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    SweetHarmonics wrote:
    wow, way to reach for the baseless attack button

    Logically there is a bit of a difference between citing a source and completely pasting an article or, even worse, pawning off the recycled ideas of others as something original. The practice isn't limited to any one place though it does become tiring after a while.

    It wasn't an attack.

    Most of the time people post entire articles to share with others. I really don't see the problem there. And I don't see a problem in agreeing with someone else's opinion and sharing it either. I think it's only a problem for the people who disgree and act like it shouldn't be shared at all. Kinda closed minded.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    hippiemom wrote:
    I agree with you that the well-being of the insurance companies should not be our primary concern. I take a backseat to no one in my dislike of insurance companies, and I think that in the ideal system they would not exist. They serve no particular function except to add a layer of paper-shufflers that need to be paid, a layer of stockholders that need to be paid, thereby increasing costs while doing nothing to increase health. Kucinich is the only candidate calling for a system that doesn't involve them at all, and I'm very sympathetic towards his view. It is absolutely the sort of system I think we should have.

    On the other hand, I am a realist. We may eventually have a system that does not involve for-profit companies, but we're not going to have it any time soon. Americans are not going to support a wholesale overhaul of the entire system, and if they did begin to show signs of supporting one, the insurers would be running ads around the clock portraying a single-payer system as a disaster of biblical proportions, and a good number of people would be frightened enough by this to back off in their support. I think that Clinton and Obama are pragmatists ... they may or may not, in their heart of hearts, want single-payer health care, but they know that it's not possible to have it right now. We do have to settle for gradual moves in that direction, it's the only hope of ever getting there at all.

    I know you don't like it, I don't like it myself, but that's the reality of the American political system.

    I'm an idealist and I think we should reach for the stars not settle for a telescope to gaze at them with. :) We all know the reality of our political system sucks and I'm tried of playing along with it to get crumbs thrown at us.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • whispering handswhispering hands Under your skin Posts: 13,527
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    America secretly fucking loves hippies and it's seeping out slowly but surely!
    he he AMERICA secretly LOVES me!!!!!YAYA!!! sorry as a hippie I had to comment!!
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I'm an idealist and I think we should reach for the stars not settle for a telescope to gaze at them with. :) We all know the reality of our political system sucks and I'm tried of playing along with it to get crumbs thrown at us.
    It's a democracy and the majority of Americans don't want upheaval. They're uncomfortable with drastic changes. I'm an idealist too, but we're not a majority and probably never will be. Incremental change is what we get because it's what the majority wants. It's far from my ideal scenario, but I'll take progress in the right direction over the regression we've had for the past 6 1/2 years.

    EDIT: Holy shit, that was my 10,000 post :eek:
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    hippiemom wrote:
    It's a democracy and the majority of Americans don't want upheaval. They're uncomfortable with drastic changes. I'm an idealist too, but we're not a majority and probably never will be. Incremental change is what we get because it's what the majority wants. It's far from my ideal scenario, but I'll take progress in the right direction over the regression we've had for the past 6 1/2 years.

    EDIT: Holy shit, that was my 10,000 post :eek:

    I believe people want drastic changes and are overwhelmingly unhappy with the way things are but are waaay too apathetic about it ever happening so they settle. I think we can have whatever we are bold enough to go for. Yep, I'm a dreamer and proud! :D


    Holy shit indeed! The 10,000 club and you spent it on little old me. ;)
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    hippiemom wrote:
    It's a democracy and the majority of Americans don't want upheaval. They're uncomfortable with drastic changes. I'm an idealist too, but we're not a majority and probably never will be. Incremental change is what we get because it's what the majority wants. It's far from my ideal scenario, but I'll take progress in the right direction over the regression we've had for the past 6 1/2 years.

    EDIT: Holy shit, that was my 10,000 post :eek:

    I think we've learned to become comfortable since 1900, and even moreso since 1931, and even moreso since 1946...

    congrats...10, 0000 hippiemom!!!
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    whispering hands wrote:
    he he AMERICA secretly LOVES me!!!!!YAYA!!! sorry as a hippie I had to comment!!

    Go right ahead, we love you!!!! :D
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    hippiemom wrote:
    EDIT: Holy shit, that was my 10,000 post :eek:

    u should have made a special one up ... some insightful words of wisdom ... maybe along with a song ... that kind of thing ... ;)
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    polaris wrote:
    u should have made a special one up ... some insightful words of wisdom ... maybe along with a song ... that kind of thing ... ;)
    I was thinking of doing a special post .... I don't know about insightful wisdom, but I'm pretty sure I could at least muster up a few smart-ass remarks. I noticed the other day that I was at 9,950 and I was trying to come up with something good, then the big 10,000 sort of snuck up on me, didn't realize until it was too late.

    Ah well ... 15,000 is only a year or two away, right?
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    hippiemom wrote:
    I was thinking of doing a special post .... I don't know about insightful wisdom, but I'm pretty sure I could at least muster up a few smart-ass remarks. I noticed the other day that I was at 9,950 and I was trying to come up with something good, then the big 10,000 sort of snuck up on me, didn't realize until it was too late.

    Ah well ... 15,000 is only a year or two away, right?

    ha! ... i say do a "i'm at 5 digit post count post" ...
  • VictoryGinVictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    hippiemom wrote:
    It's a democracy and the majority of Americans don't want upheaval. They're uncomfortable with drastic changes. I'm an idealist too, but we're not a majority and probably never will be. Incremental change is what we get because it's what the majority wants. It's far from my ideal scenario, but I'll take progress in the right direction over the regression we've had for the past 6 1/2 years.

    EDIT: Holy shit, that was my 10,000 post :eek:

    this is where i'm at. although i also think that not only are people uncomfortable with sudden drastic change, but with the health care system--it's just not possible to have that ginormous of a sudden, drastic change. it's not realistic even though it may be desirable for some.

    and like you, i must go with some progress instead of more regression. and i also am not sure why people expect candidates' platforms polished and out there. they're organizing now--we have a year and a half to go. plenty of time to hear more about the details of candidates' plans.

    and, congratulations! :)
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
  • Milhouse VanHoutenMilhouse VanHouten Posts: 755
    VictoryGin wrote:
    and like you, i must go with some progress instead of more regression. and i also am not sure why people expect candidates' platforms polished and out there. they're organizing now--we have a year and a half to go. plenty of time to hear more about the details of candidates' plans.

    and, congratulations! :)

    agreed. the policy speeches are not too far away for all of the candidates, i'm sure. it seems we're still in the "getting to know you" period, which is probably being extended as a result of the extension of the primary season. 18 months is a loooong time. i guess we'll have to settle for empty charisma and inspiring rhetoric for now...

    so ny is getting on board with the super duper tuesday thing, too?
    "Of course it hurts. You're getting fucked by an elephant."
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    VictoryGin wrote:
    this is where i'm at. although i also think that not only are people uncomfortable with sudden drastic change, but with the health care system--it's just not possible to have that ginormous of a sudden, drastic change. it's not realistic even though it may be desirable for some.

    and like you, i must go with some progress instead of more regression. and i also am not sure why people expect candidates' platforms polished and out there. they're organizing now--we have a year and a half to go. plenty of time to hear more about the details of candidates' plans.

    and, congratulations! :)
    I agree, it's not really possible to change it to what I'd like to have all at once. I don't know how many people work in the health insurance industry, but I know it's a huge number, and you can't just put 95% of them out of work overnight. You can't make the millions of shares of insurance company stock virtually worthless overnight. There are other considerations too, those are just the first two to occur to me.

    I'm not by nature a patient person and I'd really like to live to see some of the changes I've been pushing for, but I have to be realistic. I agree with most of the Kucinich platform, plus I've met the guy and I like him and I think he is a genuinely good person, but I've seen what happens when an idealist is the executive. He had fabulous ideas for Cleveland when he was mayor and he tried to force them through and it was a disaster ... he wanted too much too soon and the people just weren't ready for it. If he'd been more patient and played the game a bit he could have really accomplished something. As it was, he barely avoided being recalled (by something like 200 votes) and lost badly in his re-election bid. The world needs poets and dreamers and idealists, I'm just not so sure we need them in the White House.

    I don't know enough about Obama yet to say whether I could support him, but my mind is open toward him at the moment. I've never been a fan of the Clintons and really don't want to see Hillary as the nominee. I wish there was a real chance for Dennis to do the things he says he'd do as president, but he'd get nowhere with Congress and I think his presidency would go about as well as his term as mayor did.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    +-
    hippiemom wrote:
    I agree with you that the well-being of the insurance companies should not be our primary concern. I take a backseat to no one in my dislike of insurance companies, and I think that in the ideal system they would not exist. They serve no particular function except to add a layer of paper-shufflers that need to be paid, a layer of stockholders that need to be paid, thereby increasing costs while doing nothing to increase health. Kucinich is the only candidate calling for a system that doesn't involve them at all, and I'm very sympathetic towards his view. It is absolutely the sort of system I think we should have.

    On the other hand, I am a realist. We may eventually have a system that does not involve for-profit companies, but we're not going to have it any time soon. Americans are not going to support a wholesale overhaul of the entire system, and if they did begin to show signs of supporting one, the insurers would be running ads around the clock portraying a single-payer system as a disaster of biblical proportions, and a good number of people would be frightened enough by this to back off in their support. I think that Clinton and Obama are pragmatists ... they may or may not, in their heart of hearts, want single-payer health care, but they know that it's not possible to have it right now. We do have to settle for gradual moves in that direction, it's the only hope of ever getting there at all.

    I know you don't like it, I don't like it myself, but that's the reality of the American political system.


    mmm..perhaps, but the way i see it is i don't want to waste my time on the avg run of the mill candidate we are used to. maybe when he has actual stands he can clearly define i will rethink my position on him, but as of right now, really...what stand are ppl behind him on? if he doesn't clearly say 'this is how i'm gonna do it' what is there to support? his smile?

    ppl aren't 'ready' for a lot of shit that is pushed through our government and paid for by our tax money, that doesn't stop it from happening and ppl going on their merry ways


    "Americans are not going to support a wholesale overhaul of the entire system, and if they did begin to show signs of supporting one, the insurers would be running ads around the clock portraying a single-payer system as a disaster of biblical proportions, and a good number of people would be frightened enough by this to back off in their support. "

    so...we better not b/c they would push too much propaganda if ppl supported it...? i think if it was done effectively the ppl would overwhelming support it, it could be done, there is plenty of waste that could be trimmed to pay for this. the bottom line is it isn't done because of profit...why should i give in on what i think is a good idea b/c a lot of bs and lies will be spread by those protecting their profits and their bought and paid for reps in our government .... it's exactly this kind of attitude that keeps in this corrupt system of false promises, hell, we even know they are making false promises and yet we keep giving in and ensuring there's mainly R's and D's keeping power, 2 parties, sometimes 1 line overall...i'm going to use my vote for the person who best represents my beliefs, not the most electable, i could care less if i have the bragging right of being on the winning team for 4 or so years, i'm not gonna waste it on the ususal mediocracy
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
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