Hamas recognizes Israel

Rue D'Awakening

The "prisoners' document" does not recognize Israel at all. Nowhere does the document recognize the right of Israel to exist. Instead, it calls for Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 borders, followed by the "right" of Palestinian refugees to resettle in Israel and demographically overwhelm the Jewish state. The prisoners' document, in other words, is a plan for the phased destruction of Israel--precisely why Hamas can endorse it.

rebornFixer

If Hamas follows through, this will be great news indeed.

rebornFixer

Rue D'Awakening wrote:

The "prisoners' document" does not recognize Israel at all. Nowhere does the document recognize the right of Israel to exist. Instead, it calls for Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 borders, followed by the "right" of Palestinian refugees to resettle in Israel and demographically overwhelm the Jewish state. The prisoners' document, in other words, is a plan for the phased destruction of Israel--precisely why Hamas can endorse it.

Hmmm ... Maybe. A call for an Isreali withdrawal to pre-1967 borders must involve at least a tacit acknowledgement that Israel exists. I too am uncomfortable with the "right to resettle" portion of the document, although there is no way the Isrealis would ever agree to some sort of blanket right to settle in their country. Due process woul have to be observed regarding immigration.

Rue D'Awakening

reborncareerist wrote:

Hmmm ... Maybe. A call for an Isreali withdrawal to pre-1967 borders must involve at least a tacit acknowledgement that Israel exists. I too am uncomfortable with the "right to resettle" portion of the document, although there is no way the Isrealis would ever agree to some sort of blanket right to settle in their country. Due process woul have to be observed regarding immigration.

the issue has never been whether or not the Palestinians acknowledge that Israel exists. it's whether or not they acknowledge Israel's right to exist. this document is worthless political posturing to regain some of the sympathy that the Palestinians have lost in the past year.

The actual wording of the document includes the following:

"The Palestinian people … desires the liberation of its lands and the realization of its right to liberty, return, independence and self-definition, including the right to establish an independent state with holy Jerusalem as its capital on all the territory occupied in 1967"

in other words, a state in this territory is merely one part of the broader goal of "the liberation of [Palestinian] lands." this is a reincarnation of the PLO's 1974 "phased plan," under which any "liberated" territory would serve as a base for pursuing Israel's ultimate destruction.

both the documents' authors and other Hamas spokesmen have stated this explicitly:

on June 6th, Abdel Khaleq Natsche, who signed the document for Hamas, and Bassam al-Sa'adi, who signed for Islamic Jihad, issued the following clarification: "We scorn the attempts to attach nonexistent content to the document, and therefore, we emphasize that it does not contain any declaration or hint of recognition of the occupation state and does not contain any call for this."

Mohammed Abu Tir, a senior Hamas parliamentarian, also made this point in a subsequent interview with Haaretz on June 8th: "Hamas has no problem with the document's demand for a Palestinian state in all the territories occupied in 1967," but does not accept its "recognition of international decisions that indirectly mean recognition of Israel."

kenny olav

Confessions of a human bomb from Palestine
by Hujayra al 'Arabi

Dedicated to my brothers and sisters in Resistance in Iraq and in the Arab Nation

I do not want to die. I am not in love with death. I am not even 'half in love with easeful death' like the English poet. I want to live. I want to have a home filled with children, and I still want to be a doctor. From the age of about six, I dreamed of becoming a doctor, of being able to save lives. I wanted to do something real that would save the lives of my people.

And yet, I see now that there are many ways of saving lives and that taking lives can be a part of the process of saving lives. That is where I am now, preparing to take lives in order to save my people.

The enemy tries to say that human bombs are cowards, that we want to die, that we do this in order to go to a paradise where virgins will fulfill our every wish. Well, for a start, I can prove them wrong on the virgin issue. I am a woman, and I have no interest whatsoever in being pleasured by other virgins, thank you very much. The fact of the matter is that this is nothing more than stupid propaganda, like so many of the enemy's lies. The young men who become martyrs for our cause are not doing so in order to win virgins in the hereafter. Nor do we do this out of hatred for the enemy, although the hatred is a thousand times deserved. We do it for love of the homeland and for love of our people.

The Prophet Isa, Peace be upon him, said that there is no greater love than the love of a shepherd who is willing to lay down his life for his sheep. I agree that this is a very great act of love, and this is the act of love committed by every human bomb. We give our lives for our people, for our future, to try to turn a tide of destruction that threatens to sweep away not only our identity and heritage, but our very future. Sometimes engineers will use a bomb to attempt to change the course of a waterway. That is what the human bomb is doing, using a bomb to try to change the course of a terrible flood that day by day continues to sweep away our homes, our families and our hopes for any future. If we can make any impression at all upon this flood, if little by little, we can slow down its progress, force it into a different path and ultimately stop its flow completely, then we will have succeeded in a very great act of love.

One human bomb may be no more than a voice crying in the wilderness, but many human bombs can change the course of history, strip it of a hundred years of lies and deceit and bring the vision of a future back to Palestine.

Those who listen to the enemy propaganda should ask themselves one question: what does it take to make an ordinary boy or girl into a human bomb? In a different life, in ordinary circumstances, all of us could have been quite ordinary boys and girls. Do not mistake the human bomb for anything other than an ordinary human being forced by circumstance to act in an extraordinary fashion.

It is not easy to become a human bomb. When there is a choice between the high road and the low road, most will opt for the easier of the two. It is often easier for human nature to make excuses for betrayal and collaboration with the enemy than to face reality and know that integrity often requires the ultimate sacrifice.

It is a sad fact that the Zionists continue to be successful in hunting down the leaders of our resistance only because they are betrayed by our own people, by people whose vision is limited to the immediate situation or threat that confronts them. Even though some collaborators may be no more than people who fear for the safety of their families, or who are desperate for food and a safe shelter, collaboration is the ugliest and most despicable crime against our people. To aid the enemy, whether out of fear or greed is to BECOME the enemy. Furthermore, collaborators and those who do nothing whatsoever, trying to maintain a low profile in order to remain 'safe', must realise that there is no safe shelter as long as the enemy triumphs in our land. I will say it again: the crime of trading the life of your brother or sister for your own illusive safety is one of the worst, whatever its motivation. The man or woman who betrays a freedom fighter for gold or to save his or her skin deserves the punishment of death, for he or she has more power to harm our cause than our avowed enemy.

Cowards and collaborators must learn that it is far better to take the high road and meet death on our own terms than to cower in the shadows until the enemy drags us out to to the slaughter. The result, in physical terms, is the same, but how different the result in its effects upon others and upon the future!

more here...

rebornFixer

Kenny Olav wrote:

Confessions of a human bomb from Palestine
by Hujayra al 'Arabi

Dedicated to my brothers and sisters in Resistance in Iraq and in the Arab Nation

I do not want to die. I am not in love with death. I am not even 'half in love with easeful death' like the English poet. I want to live. I want to have a home filled with children, and I still want to be a doctor. From the age of about six, I dreamed of becoming a doctor, of being able to save lives. I wanted to do something real that would save the lives of my people.

And yet, I see now that there are many ways of saving lives and that taking lives can be a part of the process of saving lives. That is where I am now, preparing to take lives in order to save my people.

The enemy tries to say that human bombs are cowards, that we want to die, that we do this in order to go to a paradise where virgins will fulfill our every wish. Well, for a start, I can prove them wrong on the virgin issue. I am a woman, and I have no interest whatsoever in being pleasured by other virgins, thank you very much. The fact of the matter is that this is nothing more than stupid propaganda, like so many of the enemy's lies. The young men who become martyrs for our cause are not doing so in order to win virgins in the hereafter. Nor do we do this out of hatred for the enemy, although the hatred is a thousand times deserved. We do it for love of the homeland and for love of our people.

The Prophet Isa, Peace be upon him, said that there is no greater love than the love of a shepherd who is willing to lay down his life for his sheep. I agree that this is a very great act of love, and this is the act of love committed by every human bomb. We give our lives for our people, for our future, to try to turn a tide of destruction that threatens to sweep away not only our identity and heritage, but our very future. Sometimes engineers will use a bomb to attempt to change the course of a waterway. That is what the human bomb is doing, using a bomb to try to change the course of a terrible flood that day by day continues to sweep away our homes, our families and our hopes for any future. If we can make any impression at all upon this flood, if little by little, we can slow down its progress, force it into a different path and ultimately stop its flow completely, then we will have succeeded in a very great act of love.

One human bomb may be no more than a voice crying in the wilderness, but many human bombs can change the course of history, strip it of a hundred years of lies and deceit and bring the vision of a future back to Palestine.

Those who listen to the enemy propaganda should ask themselves one question: what does it take to make an ordinary boy or girl into a human bomb? In a different life, in ordinary circumstances, all of us could have been quite ordinary boys and girls. Do not mistake the human bomb for anything other than an ordinary human being forced by circumstance to act in an extraordinary fashion.

It is not easy to become a human bomb. When there is a choice between the high road and the low road, most will opt for the easier of the two. It is often easier for human nature to make excuses for betrayal and collaboration with the enemy than to face reality and know that integrity often requires the ultimate sacrifice.

It is a sad fact that the Zionists continue to be successful in hunting down the leaders of our resistance only because they are betrayed by our own people, by people whose vision is limited to the immediate situation or threat that confronts them. Even though some collaborators may be no more than people who fear for the safety of their families, or who are desperate for food and a safe shelter, collaboration is the ugliest and most despicable crime against our people. To aid the enemy, whether out of fear or greed is to BECOME the enemy. Furthermore, collaborators and those who do nothing whatsoever, trying to maintain a low profile in order to remain 'safe', must realise that there is no safe shelter as long as the enemy triumphs in our land. I will say it again: the crime of trading the life of your brother or sister for your own illusive safety is one of the worst, whatever its motivation. The man or woman who betrays a freedom fighter for gold or to save his or her skin deserves the punishment of death, for he or she has more power to harm our cause than our avowed enemy.

Cowards and collaborators must learn that it is far better to take the high road and meet death on our own terms than to cower in the shadows until the enemy drags us out to to the slaughter. The result, in physical terms, is the same, but how different the result in its effects upon others and upon the future!

more here...

I could declare myself a "normal guy" and then go out and kill a bunch of people ... That doesn't prove that I am normal.
Anyhow, still an interesting read ...

kenny olav

reborncareerist wrote:

I could declare myself a "normal guy" and then go out and kill a bunch of people ... That doesn't prove that I am normal.
Anyhow, still an interesting read ...

it is interesting to hear that perspective, and its not that i necessarily agree with it all, but i know i would be a very different person growing up in palestine (or israel) than i am for having grown up in a small massachusetts town where there has never been a single murder since i was born.

rebornFixer

Kenny Olav wrote:

it is interesting to hear that perspective, and its not that i necessarily agree with it all, but i know i would be a very different person growing up in palestine (or israel) than i am for having grown up in a small massachusetts town where there has never been a single murder since i was born.

I probably would too, I agree. Not sure what I would ultimately do if my fiance or other loved one was killed by a suicide bomber ... Or by an Isreali tank. I can see how people would become "fighters" or "insurgents". I still find the ideas of suicide bombing and terrorism in general (killing civilians) to be quite alien, but clearly many people on both sides in this conflict do not. You are right, who knows?

miller8966

duncan in the sand wrote:

The neo-cons are here in US. So is the person who I was responding to. Get a clue before you critique others.

A. Im not a jesus nut

B. Palestinians couldnt keep themselves afloat if they tried. Israel will always be their scape goat for when they fuck up.....same as the U.S government when people sit on their ass all day and dont want to get jobs.

Commy

miller8966 wrote:

A. Im not a jesus nut

B. Palestinians couldnt keep themselves afloat if they tried. Israel will always be their scape goat for when they fuck up.....same as the U.S government when people sit on their ass all day and dont want to get jobs.

Ever see a map of the occupied territories? Ever wonder what pieces of land Israel has been slowly occupying the last 30 years or so? Water is crucial for any economy, especially in that area...prime agricultural land...they aren't randomly taking pieces from the Palestinians, they are taking resources...and cordoning off the arabs....separating them, inhibiting them from creating a cohesive united people.

Give them land, give them water, leave them the fuck alone and they'll do just fine.

duncan in the sand

miller8966 wrote:

A. Im not a jesus nut

B. Palestinians couldnt keep themselves afloat if they tried. Israel will always be their scape goat for when they fuck up.....same as the U.S government when people sit on their ass all day and dont want to get jobs.

Just wanted you to know that the factors ratings are down 20% in the last year. People have started to wake up. Can't wait till November. Peace

El_Kabong

Commy wrote:

Ever see a map of the occupied territories? Ever wonder what pieces of land Israel has been slowly occupying the last 30 years or so? Water is crucial for any economy, especially in that area...prime agricultural land...they aren't randomly taking pieces from the Palestinians, they are taking resources...and cordoning off the arabs....separating them, inhibiting them from creating a cohesive united people.

Give them land, give them water, leave them the fuck alone and they'll do just fine.

the security wall on land that's not the israelis, all the checkpoints...have you seen the doc checkpoint? there's a good scene where a guy went to pick up some supplies for work and they wouldn't let him back thru one of the checkpoints to get back to his job...all they would say was the checkpoint was closed for now, turn around and go back, try tomorrow

i haven't watch this one yet, but it said you could watch it all on the site

http://film.longtermvision.org/

NCfan

Commy wrote:

Ever see a map of the occupied territories? Ever wonder what pieces of land Israel has been slowly occupying the last 30 years or so? Water is crucial for any economy, especially in that area...prime agricultural land...they aren't randomly taking pieces from the Palestinians, they are taking resources...and cordoning off the arabs....separating them, inhibiting them from creating a cohesive united people.

Give them land, give them water, leave them the fuck alone and they'll do just fine.

Can you explain Palestinian actions after Israel withdrew from Gaza, a prime agricultural land? The Palestinians went in a rioted, burnt down and destroyed the green houses that were purposely left by the Israelis.

Oh yeah, and the first thing the did was burn down all the synagouges (that was time and energy well spent).

El_Kabong

NCfan wrote:

Can you explain Palestinian actions after Israel withdrew from Gaza, a prime agricultural land? The Palestinians went in a rioted, burnt down and destroyed the green houses that were purposely left by the Israelis.

Oh yeah, and the first thing the did was burn down all the synagouges (that was time and energy well spent).

i know, an apartment complex or a refugee camp is a much better idea!

chopitdown

Commy wrote:

Ever see a map of the occupied territories? Ever wonder what pieces of land Israel has been slowly occupying the last 30 years or so? Water is crucial for any economy, especially in that area...prime agricultural land...they aren't randomly taking pieces from the Palestinians, they are taking resources...and cordoning off the arabs....separating them, inhibiting them from creating a cohesive united people.

Give them land, give them water, leave them the fuck alone and they'll do just fine.

why not go back through history to see who's land it truly is? Both sides lay claim to it throughout history and say it's there's...it's not as simple as give them land, water and leave them alone.

rssesq

10 years later and ....
same shit, different toilet

JC29856

rssesq said:

10 years later and ....
same shit, different toilet

Hahaha. 2 state dilution solution!