This Is How It Happens, Folks: The EU Treaty: Brown Surrenders Britain's Sovereignty

Heineken Helen

puremagic wrote:

This post would have been better served if it had been posted within the Lisbon Treaty thread.

This is the type of support the people from Ireland need to see. They need to know that many people and lawmakers WISH they could have voted.

This is what the people of Ireland need to see so that they know just how important their vote will be and that yes, this LITTLE NATION's vote will have a GLOBAL impact down the road. Hell, you don't think Bush is in Europe to talk about Iran. There is no Europe-Iran issue if there is no Lisbon Treaty.


The whole - see, I told you so - attitude only takes away from the importance of what is being posted. You have to give people time to read and digest the information of any post. Just a thought.

Thank you

Although TBH I'm glad the likes of the French foreign minister are coming out saying things like 'Ireland will be the first victims if there is a no vote' or that Sarkozy and Merkel have said they will give a joint response to the result... cos Irish people don't tend to stand for threats like that and I think it will push many people to vote no. Even our Health Minister told him that comments like that will not help.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Heineken Helen wrote:

Thank you

Although TBH I'm glad the likes of the French foreign minister are coming out saying things like 'Ireland will be the first victims if there is a no vote' or that Sarkozy and Merkel have said they will give a joint response to the result... cos Irish people don't tend to stand for threats like that and I think it will push many people to vote no. Even our Health Minister told him that comments like that will not help.

Especially when France were perfectly okay with shooting down the original idea a few years back. Hypocrisy, bullying, and shadowy treaties... and then they wonder why we want no part of it.

Kann

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Especially when France were perfectly okay with shooting down the original idea a few years back. Hypocrisy, bullying, and shadowy treaties... and then they wonder why we want no part of it.

Actually the treaty was refused by referendum. The government just took it on itself to revote it without asking the population a second time. It makes you wonder what kind of a democracy it is that asks your opinion only if you agree with it. Shameless shit. I just hope Ireland rejects the treaty so that EU policy makers actually comprehend that constructing the EU is a great idea but doing it considering the will and demands of its people would be better.
(I would like to apologize on behalf of our foreign minister and president. Considering a majority here voted against the treaty I'm guessing everyone's happy you still have a chance.)

Rhinocerous Surprise

Kann wrote:

Actually the treaty was refused by referendum. The government just took it on itself to revote it without asking the population a second time. It makes you wonder what kind of a democracy it is that asks your opinion only if you agree with it. Shameless shit. I just hope Ireland rejects the treaty so that EU policy makers actually comprehend that constructing the EU is a great idea but doing it considering the will and demands of its people would be better.
(I would like to apologize on behalf of our foreign minister and president. Considering a majority here voted against the treaty I'm guessing everyone's happy you still have a chance.)

Cheers, guy. I just hope the rest of Ireland is as strongly anti-Lisbon as me and Hels.

beachdweller

why would anyone be surprised about this move? Isn't if obvious that the EU's goal is to become the United States of Europe. Countries will become states. Then it'll be the EU and US vs the world, and once we've won, it'll be the US vs the EU, cause there can only be one master.

Rhinocerous Surprise

beachdweller wrote:

why would anyone be surprised about this move? Isn't if obvious that the EU's goal is to become the United States of Europe. Countries will become states. Then it'll be the EU and US vs the world, and once we've won, it'll be the US vs the EU, cause there can only be one master.

I'm not surprised by the move itself... I'm surprised by the near-complete lack of democracy involved in it. It's unbelievable that we're the only country in the EU who even gets to vote on this. And judging from our government's obnoxious pushing for a Yes vote, it's a damn good thing we get to.

NMyTree

Drifting is just about always right on the money.

Ignore the silliness of Farmer (and the others), Drifting.

unsung

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

There is a REAL issue to be discussed here.

The PM is GIVING away Britain to the EU, and yet what have we accomplished so far in this "discussion"? Two or three people calling me an idiot, telling me i speak "bullshit" and saying that i am "the boy who cried wolf".

Truth is, this article is backed by 100% fact, and yet all you can do is shoot the fucking messenger.

If i didn't have to repeate myself 1000 times to get anyone to notice, maybe i wouldn't be yelling.

But whether i start out "soft" or come out screaming and swinging, its always the same, so i may as well just lead with an uppercut, and not fucking pussyfoot it.

It isn't a big deal merging with other nations, it should be a good thing, just ask countries like Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania how things were before 1991.

unsung

Oh and there are plenty of people here who wouldn't mind us merging with Canada and that shithole Mexico. But if you protest such a thing you are a racist and hate brown people.

Heineken Helen

Kann wrote:

Actually the treaty was refused by referendum. The government just took it on itself to revote it without asking the population a second time. It makes you wonder what kind of a democracy it is that asks your opinion only if you agree with it. Shameless shit. I just hope Ireland rejects the treaty so that EU policy makers actually comprehend that constructing the EU is a great idea but doing it considering the will and demands of its people would be better.
(I would like to apologize on behalf of our foreign minister and president. Considering a majority here voted against the treaty I'm guessing everyone's happy you still have a chance.)

thank you Kann... don't worry, we're not holding it against the French or Dutch people... we can see how the governments have fucked you over and it makes me pretty fucking angry. That's my main reason for voting no... that less than 1% get to decide the fate of the 100% simply cos our government is the only one with no choice BUT to have a referendum... and they want us to vote our vote away... 'in the name of democracy' :rolleyes: It's disgusting what's going on.

Heineken Helen

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Cheers, guy. I just hope the rest of Ireland is as strongly anti-Lisbon as me and Hels.

I doubt it :( I've a feeling it's gonna be a yes vote :mad:

Unsung... we're quite a different country compared to the Baltic states pre 1991... so are the UK.

Heineken Helen

I just realised this morning... it's incredibly ironic that the governments, who have been voted in by the people, don't trust the people to vote 'the right way'

RolandTD20Kdrummer

NMyTree wrote:

Drifting is just about always right on the money.

Ignore the silliness of Farmer (and the others), Drifting.

Agreed.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Typically, the seven (7) stages of grief are described as:

- Shock or Disbelief
- Denial
- Anger
- Bargaining
- Guilt
- Depression
- Acceptance and Hope

I see the first three cycles of this play out here often. Some users are father along towards the end of the cycle, as others come into the earlier stages and loop around a few times before moving forward.

It can also be summarized more aptly as

1. Shock: Feeling numb. You may wake up wondering, "Is this real?"

2. Denial: Being unable to accept the situation. You may find yourself thinking, "This can't be happening. It's not real."

3. Anger: Wanting to lash out at everyone. You may continually ask, "How can this happen?"

4. Resolution and Hope

nuffingman

Heineken Helen wrote:

I just realised this morning... it's incredibly ironic that the governments, who have been voted in by the people, don't trust the people to vote 'the right way'

... and it's taken you how long? Has always been and always will. A bit of posturing bullshit, a few empty promises and some baby holding before an election, then treat us like mushrooms afterwards.

Heineken Helen

nuffingman wrote:

... and it's taken you how long? Has always been and always will. A bit of posturing bullshit, a few empty promises and some baby holding before an election, then treat us like mushrooms afterwards.

Oh Ive always known that.. but for them to come out and SAY it :eek: several times in several different forms... well that's fucking amazing!

Specifics

Heineken Helen wrote:

Oh Ive always known that.. but for them to come out and SAY it :eek: several times in several different forms... well that's fucking amazing!

personally i liked the poetry in what you said.
I guess we're even

dunkman

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

British history.[/b] Despite a rebellion by 29 of its own backbenchers, the Labour-led government defeated a Conservative proposal to hold a popular vote on the Lisbon Treaty by 311 votes to 248 in the House of Commons on March 5. Brown's refusal to support a referendum represented a stunning reversal of the government's 2005 manifesto pledge to hold a plebiscite on the European Constitution.

29 backbenchers is in bold??? thats not a huge rebellion by any means... its less than 1/10th of the backbench.

labour defeated the motion in which all MP's have a vote... Conservatives are anti-Euro (by and large) so any integration with Europe will be contested.

the stunning reversal was a referendum on the European Constitution... the EC was abandoned in 2005... how can there be a referendum on an non-existent proposal?

the lisbon treaty does not have any constitutional bearing on the UK.

Heineken Helen

dunkman wrote:

the lisbon treaty does not have any constitutional bearing on the UK.

you sure about that? Have you read it?

good to see you know it all now

dunkman

Heineken Helen wrote:

you sure about that? Have you read it?

good to see you know it all now

BBc News, no disrepect but they know more about it than you, said:-

Ireland and the UK currently have an opt-out from European policies concerning asylum, visas and immigration. Under the new treaty they will have the right to opt in or out of any policies in the entire field of justice and home affairs.

The government and the Lib Dems say the treaty does not have constitutional implications, so a referendum on it is not needed.

The government says most changes are minor and procedural and it has secured "opt-outs" where necessary.