There's no way to keep religion and politics entirely separate; someone's faith and religion often guide their principles and concisence, and as such cannot be excluded from the conversation. The problem is when "God" becomes the justification for political acts. Politics in this country (and I suppose any country) thrives on debate and compromise. Take the War in Iraq; you can engage in productive debates on the pros and cons about the current military and political situation there, and with everything laid out on the table, Democrats and Republicans give and take to hopefully reach a middle ground. It's why when immigration comes out, there's talk of a guide to citizenship along with a border fence. People need to (eventually) compromise or things never get done.
But how do you debate someone who says that his or her reasoning for believing something is because it is "God's will?" How would I argue the positives and negatives of the war in Iraq with Sarah Palin, if she truly does believe that the war is a "task that is from God?" There is no where else to go with such a statement, and such religious zealotry can be dangerous when brought into a situation like politics that requires debate and compromise to work efficiently.
GREAT point. You can't argue with someone who resorts to faith as their reasoning. In fact, people like her often use beliefs that go against reason or evidence as proof of the strength in their faith.
I have never understood this religious fanaticism... Don't Christians preach "turn the other cheek" and "forgiveness" and "love thy neighbor"?
And what was Jesus sermon from the mount all about? His last words before crucifiction?
But today's Christians just continue to ignore the principles of their deity.
Can anyone explain this?
Because to me it's all about whoring out your beliefs, and I can't stand these two-faced religious hijackers.
It's because they're hypocrites. They're using Christianity to serve their own agenda, however far away it may be from what Jesus actually said and did. People have been doing it for centuries (Spanish Inquisition, anyone?). The scary thing is that a lot of Christians, at least in America, will vote for someone if they say that what they're doing is approved by God, whether it is or not. And it really makes me angry.
Chicago 2000 : Chicago 2003 : Chicago 2006 : Summerfest 2006 : Lollapalooza 2007 : Chicago 2009 : Noblesville (Indy) 2010 : PJ20 (East Troy) 2011 : Wrigley Field 2013 : Milwaukee (Yield) 2014 : Wrigley Field 2016
A lot of Christians are hypocrites and are Christian in name only - not actions.
There are many who are not, however. I just want to point that out since it so often seems that there are big stereotypes on this board.
I totally agree. Unfortunately the Republicans lately have hijacked religion to further their own political agenda. Understandably, this has made many of us on the other side of the political spectrum a little bit wary of religion and in particular the evangelicals.
I totally agree. Unfortunately the Republicans lately have hijacked religion to further their own political agenda. Understandably, this has made many of us on the other side of the political spectrum a little bit wary of religion and in particular the evangelicals.
But have they really? I hear them mention God every once and awhile, but I don't see them harping on it continually.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
But have they really? I hear them mention God every once and awhile, but I don't see them harping on it continually.
Really? I thought it was obvious. Karl Rove's tactics are based on igniting the "culture war." Using issues that directly appeal to peoples inner faith to make it unthinkable to vote for the opponent.
Gay marriage as a main issue of 2004 when we were mired in Iraq? Come on how is that important in relation. Abortion is another topic which is commonly used. Also, using the churches of evangelicals as ways to massively organize and get out the vote in favor of republican's.
Even Palin's church pastor made a comment in 04 that those who vote for Kerry will essentially be "damned to hell"
A lot of Christians are hypocrites and are Christian in name only - not actions.
There are many who are not, however. I just want to point that out since it so often seems that there are big stereotypes on this board.
...
But... how can you tell the difference?
And who's to say who is a 'Real Christian' and who is not?
...
I have heard this often... and it makes me wonder. Can you be a 'sort of a' Christian, Part-time Christian or Hard-core Christian? Or are you either Christian... or not Christian (as in a boolean datatype... 0 or 1)?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Really? I thought it was obvious. Karl Rove's tactics are based on igniting the "culture war." Using issues that directly appeal to peoples inner faith to make it unthinkable to vote for the opponent.
Gay marriage as a main issue of 2004 when we were mired in Iraq? Come on how is that important in relation. Abortion is another topic which is commonly used. Also, using the churches of evangelicals as ways to massively organize and get out the vote in favor of republican's.
Even Palin's church pastor made a comment in 04 that those who vote for Kerry will essentially be "damned to hell"
Opposition to gay marriage and abortion aren't the sole possessions of Christianity. In fact, as a Christian I didn't really see any Christian basis to oppose gay marriage. In fact, on that issue I thought both the pro- and anti- sides made no sense whatsoever.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
...
But... how can you tell the difference?
And who's to say who is a 'Real Christian' and who is not?
...
I have heard this often... and it makes me wonder. Can you be a 'sort of a' Christian, Part-time Christian or Hard-core Christian? Or are you either Christian... or not Christian (as in a boolean datatype... 0 or 1)?
The definition of a hypocrite is pretty easy. It's saying one thing and doing another.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
But have they really? I hear them mention God every once and awhile, but I don't see them harping on it continually.
I have to strennously, strennously disagree with that. The Republican Party in my opinion has moved away from being the party of fiscial discipline and has become the party of Christian social issues. Abortion, gay marriage, the so-called cultural issues, many of their policies have that grounded. Plus, evangelicals were what won Bush the election in 04.
I'm not anti-religion by any means; I'm religious myself. However, when it impedes fruitful debate is when I have to draw the line. I mean, you tell me how you'd respond to a presidential or vice-presidential candidate who says the Iraq war is "a task that is from God." It's not just that someone feels it is right for us to be there, but that it is God's work. No matter how well I debate the argument about how going to Iraq was a terrible idea, I cannot compete with God. That's definetely the problem.
...
So... any Christian that says one thing... yet, does another is NOT really a christian? Is it really THAT easy to discount them?
Probably a bit over-simplified, but not too far off base. Everyone can make mistakes, but those that continue them in perpetuation surely are hypocritical, no?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I have to strennously, strennously disagree with that. The Republican Party in my opinion has moved away from being the party of fiscial discipline and has become the party of Christian social issues. Abortion, gay marriage, the so-called cultural issues, many of their policies have that grounded. Plus, evangelicals were what won Bush the election in 04.
I'm not anti-religion by any means; I'm religious myself. However, when it impedes fruitful debate is when I have to draw the line. I mean, you tell me how you'd respond to a presidential or vice-presidential candidate who says the Iraq war is "a task that is from God." It's not just that someone feels it is right for us to be there, but that it is God's work. No matter how well I debate the argument about how going to Iraq was a terrible idea, I cannot compete with God. That's definetely the problem.
Again, do you have to be religious to oppose abortion and gay marriage?
I agree with you on the second part, but my point was I don't hear the republicans constantly saying things like that. Very occasionally, yes.
And I do not ever agree with someone who says that a war was God's task in this day and age.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Opposition to gay marriage and abortion aren't the sole possessions of Christianity. In fact, as a Christian I didn't really see any Christian basis to oppose gay marriage. In fact, on that issue I thought both the pro- and anti- sides made no sense whatsoever.
come on, we all know you're smarter than this. the fact that christians aren't the "sole possessors" of the gay marriage issue does not mean the republican party didn't do it's damndest to rally its base by appealing to conservative christian voters who could be manipulated based on moral/value stances. that was his point.
it's the republican ace-in-the-hole. no, they don't use it all the time, but they pull it whenever they need it. john kerry still is close to dubya despite the swift boaters, so they land gay marriage bans on ballots in key states and get the churches whipped into a frenzy (i saw it firsthand in ohio). now... obama is kicking the shit out of mccain, so they get palin to whip the values voters into a frenzy over her abortion stance. it's their go-to tactic when the actual issues don't work.
come on, we all know you're smarter than this. the fact that christians aren't the "sole possessors" of the gay marriage issue does not mean the republican party didn't do it's damndest to rally its base by appealing to conservative christian voters who could be manipulated based on moral/value stances. that was his point.
it's the republican ace-in-the-hole. no, they don't use it all the time, but they pull it whenever they need it. john kerry still is close to dubya despite the swift boaters, so they land gay marriage bans on ballots in key states and get the churches whipped into a frenzy (i saw it firsthand in ohio). now... obama is kicking the shit out of mccain, so they get palin to whip the values voters into a frenzy over her abortion stance. it's their go-to tactic when the actual issues don't work.
So do you think both parties should be for gay marriage then? I mean, obviously many of those Christians oppose it regardless of what the Republican party tells them (contrary to your comment about them being manipulated).
Furthermore, what has the republican party done about gay marriage? From what I recall, it was left up to the states and the general public voted it down overwhelmingly in every case. Those were propositions to state law and had nothing to do with political parties.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Probably a bit over-simplified, but not too far off base. Everyone can make mistakes, but those that continue them in perpetuation surely are hypocritical, no?
...
But, for THEIR point of view... they are still Christians, right?
For example, A person who is against abortion and pro-war or for the death penalty is not really a Christian... even though they claim to be.. and base their opinion on scripture... or at least, a loose interpretation of the scripture.
That is probably most of the so-called, 'Christians' in America.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
0
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Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,209
* Sarah Palin and the Wasilla Church of God *
New revelations about Republican vice-presidential nominee Sarah Palin continue
to raise questions about how her religious views might affect her decisions on
public policy. Much of the scrutiny has focused on Palin's church, the Wasilla
Assembly of God. This past a week, a video emerged of Palin telling students
there that the US invasion of Iraq is a task from God. Her comments have raised
concerns she could see some government actions as inevitable or preordained as
part of a theocratic belief in "end times."
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
...
But, for THEIR point of view... they are still Christians, right?
For example, A person who is against abortion and pro-war or for the death penalty is not really a Christian... even though they claim to be.. and base their opinion on scripture... or at least, a loose interpretation of the scripture.
That is probably most of the so-called, 'Christians' in America.
You are probably right for the most part, although I really do not think most Christians are as pro-war as they are made out to be. I go to church a lot and to several different churches and I haven't head a single pro-war thing uttered in 7 years of the Iraq war other than to pray for the troops.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
So do you think both parties should be for gay marriage then? I mean, obviously many of those Christians oppose it regardless of what the Republican party tells them (contrary to your comment about them being manipulated).
Furthermore, what has the republican party done about gay marriage? From what I recall, it was left up to the states and the general public voted it down overwhelmingly in every case. Those were propositions to state law and had nothing to do with political parties.
this isn't about what christians should believe. your point about what the republicans have done about gay marriage is exactly it. these voters either wouldn't care, or might look at whole issues. but instead, the republicans get pastors to preach fire and brimstone and damnation and the decline of america and literally put the fear of god into people... if they don't vote against homosexuality, their souls are in jeopardy. it was enough to sway the results of the 04 election. and i think it's disgusting the way the republicans exploit this kind of thing whenever they are in trouble because they can't win on the issues. not only that, it's bad for the country, which ends up with policies that are disastrous (as dubya's term has proven to be).
for the record, i find it equally detestable when the democrats do the same thing and try to scare minority voters into thinking they have to vote for dems because otherwise the republicans will get the kkk going again. it's just dirty politics. and this kind of fear-mongering should have no place in a robust and reasoned democracy.
Religion often directly influences people's personal beliefs. To say that someone can't bring their religion into their political ideology is ignorant. It's our choice whether or not to vote for that person. if we disagree with them, we don't vote for them. What difference does it make if they talk about their beliefs in religious terms? They don't HAVE to be elected.
I pledge to you a government that will not only work well, but wisely, its ability to act tempered by prudence, and its willingness to do good, balanced by the knowledge that government is never more dangerous than when our desire to have it help us blinds us to its great power to harm us.
-Reagan
this isn't about what christians should believe. your point about what the republicans have done about gay marriage is exactly it. these voters either wouldn't care, or might look at whole issues. but instead, the republicans get pastors to preach fire and brimstone and damnation and the decline of america and literally put the fear of god into people... if they don't vote against homosexuality, their souls are in jeopardy. it was enough to sway the results of the 04 election. and i think it's disgusting the way the republicans exploit this kind of thing whenever they are in trouble because they can't win on the issues. not only that, it's bad for the country, which ends up with policies that are disastrous (as dubya's term has proven to be).
for the record, i find it equally detestable when the democrats do the same thing and try to scare minority voters into thinking they have to vote for dems because otherwise the republicans will get the kkk going again. it's just dirty politics. and this kind of fear-mongering should have no place in a robust and reasoned democracy.
I was willing to give you some of the benefit of the doubt, but if you really believe the republican party is out somehow convincing all Christian pastors to preach against homosexuality then you probably need to stock up on some tinfoil for your windows.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I was willing to give you some of the benefit of the doubt, but if you really believe the republican party is out somehow convincing all Christian pastors to preach against homosexuality then you probably need to stock up on some tinfoil for your windows.
You're absolutely right. Not just this comment but all your other ones in this thread.
I pledge to you a government that will not only work well, but wisely, its ability to act tempered by prudence, and its willingness to do good, balanced by the knowledge that government is never more dangerous than when our desire to have it help us blinds us to its great power to harm us.
-Reagan
I was willing to give you some of the benefit of the doubt, but if you really believe the republican party is out somehow convincing all Christian pastors to preach against homosexuality then you probably need to stock up on some tinfoil for your windows.
You seem like a reasonable person. And certainly pastors don't need encouraging to come out and preach against homosexuality, I'm sure that occurs in some churches regardless.
However, putting these referendum against gay marriage on the ballots of key states is definitely designed to bring out the evangelical vote where it may have been more passive in the past.
Do you really think that the issue of gay marriage should determine an election in these times? It's not like electing Bush got anyone closer to banning gay marriage or abortions as I'm sure some had hoped. In fact, I'm not convinced that the Republicans wouldn't like to keep both legal so that they will always have something guttural to appeal to so-called "values" voters.
I really don't think it is disputable the Rove and the Republicans have used the evangelical vote, quite effectively I might add, to their advantage in the past 2 elections.
I just wish this country could have a reasoned debate on the things that matter. Things like Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, the Economy, Education, etc... If that were the case and the Republican's still won, than fine. This base appeal to peoples instincts is despicable. :mad:
Religion often directly influences people's personal beliefs. To say that someone can't bring their religion into their political ideology is ignorant. It's our choice whether or not to vote for that person. if we disagree with them, we don't vote for them. What difference does it make if they talk about their beliefs in religious terms? They don't HAVE to be elected.
...
And THERE'S the catch... Elected.
Religion directs personal belief... brought into political ideology... no harm, no foul.
But, if ELECTED and placed in a position of power to decide for the populous... in which case, you cannot disagree with them... FOUL.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Religion often directly influences people's personal beliefs. To say that someone can't bring their religion into their political ideology is ignorant. It's our choice whether or not to vote for that person. if we disagree with them, we don't vote for them. What difference does it make if they talk about their beliefs in religious terms? They don't HAVE to be elected.
"New revelations about Republican Vice-Presidential nominee Sarah Palin continue to raise questions about how her religious views might affect her decisions on public policy. Much of the scrutiny has focused on Palin’s church, the Wassila Assembly of God. This past a week a video emerged of Palin telling students there that the US invasion of Iraq is a task from God."
...
And THERE'S the catch... Elected.
Religion directs personal belief... brought into political ideology... no harm, no foul.
But, if ELECTED and placed in a position of power to decide for the populous... in which case, you cannot disagree with them... FOUL.
But it's up to the people to decide. I don't see your point. That's true for any candidate that's elected regarding their personal beliefs, whether they're religious or not. If the public sees something negative about a candidate, they don't vote for him/her.
If you're talking about a candidate possibly forcing their religion onto the people, well that's a different issue. 1st Amendment clearly states freedom of religion. If there was some crazy way that legislation regarding a national religion or something like that was passed, the Supreme Court would rule it unconstitutional if it came to them in a case, which it surely would considering the outrage people would be feeling. Our government is designed to check the efforts of politicians from every possible angle.
In any case, I do not know a single religious person who believes that their religion should be instituted as a state religion. Despite the fact that they obviously believe that their beliefs are the truth, they still have respect for other people's rights to practice whatever religion they want.
I pledge to you a government that will not only work well, but wisely, its ability to act tempered by prudence, and its willingness to do good, balanced by the knowledge that government is never more dangerous than when our desire to have it help us blinds us to its great power to harm us.
-Reagan
I was willing to give you some of the benefit of the doubt, but if you really believe the republican party is out somehow convincing all Christian pastors to preach against homosexuality then you probably need to stock up on some tinfoil for your windows.
no, i don't "believe" all republican are convincing every christian pastor to preach against homosexuality.
but i do KNOW for a fact that in ohio last election, karl rove and the republicans maneuvered a gay marriage ban onto the ballot and then joined with various megachurches and pastors to do massive picketing, protests, pamphleteering, and so on and so forth in order to tout the huge threat of homosexuality and to exhort people into voting against kerry.
i'm aware this isn't everyone. hell, our local catholic priest tore into the congregation for flyering cars in the lot about this during a church and lambasted these people for obscuring the issues and pointed out that war and poverty are every bit as much moral issues as homosexuality or abortion. but that does not mean that the republicans have not made a practice of exploiting hot button religious issues to corral votes whenever they feel they won't win. the democrats do it with minority issues too.
there is no tin foil hat here. you're well aware that this is happening and are just digging in because you're feeling defensive. perhaps if more of you and your brethren took the path of our parish priest and became as willing to call bullshit on your own as you are of us "liberal tin foil" folks, this wouldn't be such a problem.
so, anyone wanna ask how religion affects her policies?
I'm not asking that. I'm saying that it doesn't make a difference where her beliefs come from, people either agree or disagree, and vote accordingly.
I pledge to you a government that will not only work well, but wisely, its ability to act tempered by prudence, and its willingness to do good, balanced by the knowledge that government is never more dangerous than when our desire to have it help us blinds us to its great power to harm us.
-Reagan
Comments
GREAT point. You can't argue with someone who resorts to faith as their reasoning. In fact, people like her often use beliefs that go against reason or evidence as proof of the strength in their faith.
Religion......Faith.....is all based on....you know...Faith.
There's no concrete evidence or proof that God exists or that any of the Top Three Religious Books were written by God.
Faith: .....firm belief in something for which there is no proof.
The only real evidence and proof we have is, all these books were written by Men .......Human Beings; who claim God told them what to write.
That's it.
The words of Men claiming to have been granted the divine gig of being God's Ghost Writers.
Yet, these religious extremists talk, act and pontificate as if these are proven facts.
It's faith. Let's not confuse your faith with reality and proven facts.
It's because they're hypocrites. They're using Christianity to serve their own agenda, however far away it may be from what Jesus actually said and did. People have been doing it for centuries (Spanish Inquisition, anyone?). The scary thing is that a lot of Christians, at least in America, will vote for someone if they say that what they're doing is approved by God, whether it is or not. And it really makes me angry.
There are many who are not, however. I just want to point that out since it so often seems that there are big stereotypes on this board.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I totally agree. Unfortunately the Republicans lately have hijacked religion to further their own political agenda. Understandably, this has made many of us on the other side of the political spectrum a little bit wary of religion and in particular the evangelicals.
But have they really? I hear them mention God every once and awhile, but I don't see them harping on it continually.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Really? I thought it was obvious. Karl Rove's tactics are based on igniting the "culture war." Using issues that directly appeal to peoples inner faith to make it unthinkable to vote for the opponent.
Gay marriage as a main issue of 2004 when we were mired in Iraq? Come on how is that important in relation. Abortion is another topic which is commonly used. Also, using the churches of evangelicals as ways to massively organize and get out the vote in favor of republican's.
Even Palin's church pastor made a comment in 04 that those who vote for Kerry will essentially be "damned to hell"
But... how can you tell the difference?
And who's to say who is a 'Real Christian' and who is not?
...
I have heard this often... and it makes me wonder. Can you be a 'sort of a' Christian, Part-time Christian or Hard-core Christian? Or are you either Christian... or not Christian (as in a boolean datatype... 0 or 1)?
Hail, Hail!!!
Opposition to gay marriage and abortion aren't the sole possessions of Christianity. In fact, as a Christian I didn't really see any Christian basis to oppose gay marriage. In fact, on that issue I thought both the pro- and anti- sides made no sense whatsoever.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
The definition of a hypocrite is pretty easy. It's saying one thing and doing another.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I have to strennously, strennously disagree with that. The Republican Party in my opinion has moved away from being the party of fiscial discipline and has become the party of Christian social issues. Abortion, gay marriage, the so-called cultural issues, many of their policies have that grounded. Plus, evangelicals were what won Bush the election in 04.
I'm not anti-religion by any means; I'm religious myself. However, when it impedes fruitful debate is when I have to draw the line. I mean, you tell me how you'd respond to a presidential or vice-presidential candidate who says the Iraq war is "a task that is from God." It's not just that someone feels it is right for us to be there, but that it is God's work. No matter how well I debate the argument about how going to Iraq was a terrible idea, I cannot compete with God. That's definetely the problem.
So... any Christian that says one thing... yet, does another is NOT really a christian? Is it really THAT easy to discount them?
Hail, Hail!!!
Probably a bit over-simplified, but not too far off base. Everyone can make mistakes, but those that continue them in perpetuation surely are hypocritical, no?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Again, do you have to be religious to oppose abortion and gay marriage?
I agree with you on the second part, but my point was I don't hear the republicans constantly saying things like that. Very occasionally, yes.
And I do not ever agree with someone who says that a war was God's task in this day and age.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
come on, we all know you're smarter than this. the fact that christians aren't the "sole possessors" of the gay marriage issue does not mean the republican party didn't do it's damndest to rally its base by appealing to conservative christian voters who could be manipulated based on moral/value stances. that was his point.
it's the republican ace-in-the-hole. no, they don't use it all the time, but they pull it whenever they need it. john kerry still is close to dubya despite the swift boaters, so they land gay marriage bans on ballots in key states and get the churches whipped into a frenzy (i saw it firsthand in ohio). now... obama is kicking the shit out of mccain, so they get palin to whip the values voters into a frenzy over her abortion stance. it's their go-to tactic when the actual issues don't work.
So do you think both parties should be for gay marriage then? I mean, obviously many of those Christians oppose it regardless of what the Republican party tells them (contrary to your comment about them being manipulated).
Furthermore, what has the republican party done about gay marriage? From what I recall, it was left up to the states and the general public voted it down overwhelmingly in every case. Those were propositions to state law and had nothing to do with political parties.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
But, for THEIR point of view... they are still Christians, right?
For example, A person who is against abortion and pro-war or for the death penalty is not really a Christian... even though they claim to be.. and base their opinion on scripture... or at least, a loose interpretation of the scripture.
That is probably most of the so-called, 'Christians' in America.
Hail, Hail!!!
New revelations about Republican vice-presidential nominee Sarah Palin continue
to raise questions about how her religious views might affect her decisions on
public policy. Much of the scrutiny has focused on Palin's church, the Wasilla
Assembly of God. This past a week, a video emerged of Palin telling students
there that the US invasion of Iraq is a task from God. Her comments have raised
concerns she could see some government actions as inevitable or preordained as
part of a theocratic belief in "end times."
Listen/Watch/Read
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/9/9/sarah_palin_and_the_wasila_church
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
You are probably right for the most part, although I really do not think most Christians are as pro-war as they are made out to be. I go to church a lot and to several different churches and I haven't head a single pro-war thing uttered in 7 years of the Iraq war other than to pray for the troops.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
this isn't about what christians should believe. your point about what the republicans have done about gay marriage is exactly it. these voters either wouldn't care, or might look at whole issues. but instead, the republicans get pastors to preach fire and brimstone and damnation and the decline of america and literally put the fear of god into people... if they don't vote against homosexuality, their souls are in jeopardy. it was enough to sway the results of the 04 election. and i think it's disgusting the way the republicans exploit this kind of thing whenever they are in trouble because they can't win on the issues. not only that, it's bad for the country, which ends up with policies that are disastrous (as dubya's term has proven to be).
for the record, i find it equally detestable when the democrats do the same thing and try to scare minority voters into thinking they have to vote for dems because otherwise the republicans will get the kkk going again. it's just dirty politics. and this kind of fear-mongering should have no place in a robust and reasoned democracy.
-Reagan
I was willing to give you some of the benefit of the doubt, but if you really believe the republican party is out somehow convincing all Christian pastors to preach against homosexuality then you probably need to stock up on some tinfoil for your windows.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
You're absolutely right. Not just this comment but all your other ones in this thread.
-Reagan
You seem like a reasonable person. And certainly pastors don't need encouraging to come out and preach against homosexuality, I'm sure that occurs in some churches regardless.
However, putting these referendum against gay marriage on the ballots of key states is definitely designed to bring out the evangelical vote where it may have been more passive in the past.
Do you really think that the issue of gay marriage should determine an election in these times? It's not like electing Bush got anyone closer to banning gay marriage or abortions as I'm sure some had hoped. In fact, I'm not convinced that the Republicans wouldn't like to keep both legal so that they will always have something guttural to appeal to so-called "values" voters.
I really don't think it is disputable the Rove and the Republicans have used the evangelical vote, quite effectively I might add, to their advantage in the past 2 elections.
I just wish this country could have a reasoned debate on the things that matter. Things like Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, the Economy, Education, etc... If that were the case and the Republican's still won, than fine. This base appeal to peoples instincts is despicable. :mad:
And THERE'S the catch... Elected.
Religion directs personal belief... brought into political ideology... no harm, no foul.
But, if ELECTED and placed in a position of power to decide for the populous... in which case, you cannot disagree with them... FOUL.
Hail, Hail!!!
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/9/9/sarah_palin_and_the_wasila_church
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so, anyone wanna ask how religion affects her policies?
But it's up to the people to decide. I don't see your point. That's true for any candidate that's elected regarding their personal beliefs, whether they're religious or not. If the public sees something negative about a candidate, they don't vote for him/her.
If you're talking about a candidate possibly forcing their religion onto the people, well that's a different issue. 1st Amendment clearly states freedom of religion. If there was some crazy way that legislation regarding a national religion or something like that was passed, the Supreme Court would rule it unconstitutional if it came to them in a case, which it surely would considering the outrage people would be feeling. Our government is designed to check the efforts of politicians from every possible angle.
In any case, I do not know a single religious person who believes that their religion should be instituted as a state religion. Despite the fact that they obviously believe that their beliefs are the truth, they still have respect for other people's rights to practice whatever religion they want.
-Reagan
no, i don't "believe" all republican are convincing every christian pastor to preach against homosexuality.
but i do KNOW for a fact that in ohio last election, karl rove and the republicans maneuvered a gay marriage ban onto the ballot and then joined with various megachurches and pastors to do massive picketing, protests, pamphleteering, and so on and so forth in order to tout the huge threat of homosexuality and to exhort people into voting against kerry.
i'm aware this isn't everyone. hell, our local catholic priest tore into the congregation for flyering cars in the lot about this during a church and lambasted these people for obscuring the issues and pointed out that war and poverty are every bit as much moral issues as homosexuality or abortion. but that does not mean that the republicans have not made a practice of exploiting hot button religious issues to corral votes whenever they feel they won't win. the democrats do it with minority issues too.
there is no tin foil hat here. you're well aware that this is happening and are just digging in because you're feeling defensive. perhaps if more of you and your brethren took the path of our parish priest and became as willing to call bullshit on your own as you are of us "liberal tin foil" folks, this wouldn't be such a problem.
I'm not asking that. I'm saying that it doesn't make a difference where her beliefs come from, people either agree or disagree, and vote accordingly.
-Reagan