gay muslims find a way out

rebornFixer

Laz wrote:

So would you say that in Canada, people have more religious tolerance than in the Bible Belt?

How do you think the Bible Belt has gotten the rep that by your own admission it has gotten here in these boards?

Not exactly sure what you're asking, but here goes ... I don't know if I would say that all of Canada is more tolerant that people in the American Bible Belt. I think in some ways we probably are, but in other ways, we probably aren't. How's that for a noncommital answer?


As for the Bible Belt's rep ... I think like almost all stereotypes, there's a) some truth to it, but b) bigoted people have made it out to be worse than it actually is.

JaneNY

purrmo wrote:

I meant prejudice, you are right racism does not apply. Tell me where in the Qu'ran does it say the homosexuals should be stoned to death. Nowhere.

Nowhere. Okay. (Though I think I can find the verse I have in mind but it may take some tiime) So you tell me - can a Muslim be homosexual and it be okay? If not, what does Islam believe should be done about someone who is a Muslim, IS GAY and happy to be that way?

VivaPalestina

JaneNY wrote:

Nowhere. Okay. (Though I think I can find the verse I have in mind but it may take some tiime) So you tell me - can a Muslim be homosexual and it be okay? If not, what does Islam believe should be done about someone who is a Muslim, IS GAY and happy to be that way?

It will take a lot of time, because it is not there.All religions are open to interpretation. I was watching like an hour thing on gay arab muslims/jews/christians on pbs. And a muslim gay guy interpreted the Qu'ran as saying that Islam is not against homosexuality. And the same can be said with the Bible and the Torah. A gay guy on CNN stated that the Bible said that homosexuals must be killed. I don't know, I never read the whole Bible. It is open to the reader's interpretation.I am not one to say that they are wrong or right. The Qu'ran does not say that homosexuals should be stoned to death. And the Qu'ran is the book of Islam. As I said before that punishments such as stoning that the West is focused on, yet there jails are filled with the falsely accused, were avoided at all costs in the Prophet's time.

JaneNY

I asked my husband, who is a muslim (I am not), and he confirmed what you said that there is no verse in the Quran that says homosexuals must be stoned. However he did say that it is Sunnah (Hadith) that the punishment for homosexuality is death. This among other reasons is why I reject Islam and the other religions you mentioned.

But at the same time, I totally agree with you that jails (like Guantanamo) are filled with people falsely accused and this is wrong.

My philosophy is Live and Let Live as long as you are not harming others. No killing.

MrBrian

JaneNY wrote:

I asked my husband, who is a muslim (I am not), and he confirmed what you said that there is no verse in the Quran that says homosexuals must be stoned. However he did say that it is Sunnah (Hadith) that the punishment for homosexuality is death. This among other reasons is why I reject Islam and the other religions you mentioned.

But at the same time, I totally agree with you that jails (like Guantanamo) are filled with people falsely accused and this is wrong.

My philosophy is Live and Let Live as long as you are not harming others. No killing.

Many false sunnahs do exist, also the punishment for death in the quran is quite clear and if gays were to be killed the quran would've had it written as so but it does'nt.

rebornFixer

MrBrian wrote:

Many false sunnahs do exist, also the punishment for death in the quran is quite clear and if gays were to be killed the quran would've had it written as so but it does'nt.

Yet many Muslims interpret it as such, which is the concern.
Not sure why you are defending it, dude. All three Western religions, with some exceptions, promote backwards attitudes about homosexuals.

MrBrian

reborncareerist wrote:

Yet many Muslims interpret it as such, which is the concern.
Not sure why you are defending it, dude. All three Western religions, with some exceptions, promote backwards attitudes about homosexuals.

Well the quran has nothing really to interpret when to comes to gays because it's just not mentioned.

nevertheless. religions aside, how many countries really promote a forward attitude when it comes to gays? Not many and for sure not the US.

rebornFixer

MrBrian wrote:

Well the quran has nothing really to interpret when to comes to gays because it's just not mentioned.

nevertheless. religions aside, how many countries really promote a forward attitude when it comes to gays? Not many and for sure not the US.

Very, very few, I agree. The U.S. wasn't the topic of this thread, though. Talking about socially regressive policies in Islamic nations or populations does not mean that the U.S. is much better. That is a separate topic.

VivaPalestina

reborncareerist wrote:

Very, very few, I agree. The U.S. wasn't the topic of this thread, though. Talking about socially regressive policies in Islamic nations or populations does not mean that the U.S. is much better. That is a separate topic.

Why should we not include the US and just single out the "other," why is not okay to to refer to other nations and religions on this topic. Why orientalize and separate? Why should the focus be on muslim countries, let us take a look at ALL countries.

JaneNY

purrmo wrote:

Why should we not include the US and just single out the "other," why is not okay to to refer to other nations and religions on this topic. Why orientalize and separate? Why should the focus be on muslim countries, let us take a look at ALL countries.

Well sure, but this thread originated as how muslims who are gay, and have no intention of living otherwise, are dealing with societal pressures, and in a sense the consequences *within islam* for being outed. Basically it appears that gay muslims must remain entirely closeted to 'straight society'. That has changed *somewhat* in the U.S. While the U.S. in some quarters continues to have an uneasy relationship with homosexuality, there are many more avenues for self-expression and life in the U.S. than there used to be. I'm not sure that is the case in Muslim societies. Or is it? Perhaps gay marriages (gay male marrying gay female) is a step up, that is until the relatives start asking about when the family will be started and believe me they will ask.

rebornFixer

purrmo wrote:

Why should we not include the US and just single out the "other," why is not okay to to refer to other nations and religions on this topic. Why orientalize and separate? Why should the focus be on muslim countries, let us take a look at ALL countries.

Ending every statement I make with "but I'm sure the Americans do it too" is dumb and I'm not going to do it. It is up to you to get offended or not.

rebornFixer

JaneNY wrote:

That has changed *somewhat* in the U.S. While the U.S. in some quarters continues to have an uneasy relationship with homosexuality, there are many more avenues for self-expression and life in the U.S. than there used to be.

Exactly, and the same goes for Canada. This is a matter of degree. No one is saying that the U.S. is some sort of utopia. What I don't get is why some people cannot be a little bit realistic, though. People from disadvantaged groups (like homosexuals) have many more options in democratic societies than they do in theocracies or dictatorships. Moreover, different cultures in the world are on different parts of the "acceptance of alternative lifestyles" continuum. How can people deny this? In some of these countries, women have next to no rights, nevermind gays. Women, 51% of the population! It is a value judgment to call this backward, and I will gladly make said value judgment. It IS backward, in my opinion.

MrBrian

the focus is on gay muslims in america, so that's why I brought america up, it's quite simple, really.

VivaPalestina

reborncareerist wrote:

Ending every statement I make with "but I'm sure the Americans do it too" is dumb and I'm not going to do it. It is up to you to get offended or not. .

reborncareerist wrote:

Exactly, and the same goes for Canada. This is a matter of degree. No one is saying that the U.S. is some sort of utopia. What I don't get is why some people cannot be a little bit realistic, though. People from disadvantaged groups (like homosexuals) have many more options in democratic societies than they do in theocracies or dictatorships. Moreover, different cultures in the world are on different parts of the "acceptance of alternative lifestyles" continuum. How can people deny this? In some of these countries, women have next to no rights, nevermind gays. Women, 51% of the population! It is a value judgment to call this backward, and I will gladly make said value judgment. It IS backward, in my opinion.

Saying it is dumb it is not a good enough answer for why we should not include all societies and cultures when speaking on the issue of homosexuals. First you say lets stick to the topic, but then you go off and mention womens' rights. Why are you bringing women into it? What do they have to do with homosexuals? So are you trying to say that if women have rights, then gays have rights? That is a weak argument and in many Western societies women have rights and gays don't have any. So again the focus remains on the "other," even going off onto other topics to prove that the "other" is backwards, but don't mention the US. Don't make rules that you yourself can not follow.

decides2dream

Laz wrote:

The Ancient Romans and Greeks were pretty religious and open towards homosexuality...

perhaps pagan religions are more open? seems 'the one god' religions are a bit more intolerant of homosexuality. just a thought.

either way, it is SUCH a shame that one may feel the need to live a lie, not be true to themselves and their true natures...for societal pressures of any kind...be it the outside world, family or religion.