evangelicals trying to hide hominid fossils
darkcrow
Posts: 1,102
http://www.livescience.com/othernews/061203_richard_leakey.html
Famed paleoanthropologist Richard Leakey is giving no quarter to powerful evangelical church leaders who are pressing Kenya's national museum to relegate to a back room its world-famous collection of hominid fossils showing the evolution of humans' early ancestors.
Leakey called the churches' plans "the most outrageous comments I have ever heard."
He told The Daily Telegraph (London): "The National Museums of Kenya should be extremely strong in presenting a very forceful case for the evolutionary theory of the origins of mankind. The collection it holds is one of Kenya's very few global claims to fame and it must be forthright in defending its right to be at the forefront of this branch of science." Leakey was for years director of the museum and of Kenya's entire museum system.
The museum's collections include the most complete skeleton yet found of Homo erectus, the 1.7-million-year-old Turkana Boy unearthed by Leakey's team in 1984 near Lake Turkana in northern Kenya.
The museum also holds bones from several specimens of Australopithecus anamensis, believed to be the first hominid to walk upright, four million years ago. Together the artifacts amount to the clearest record yet discovered of the origins of Homo sapiens.
Leaders of Kenya's Pentecostal congregation, with six million adherents, want the human fossils de-emphasized.
"The Christian community here is very uncomfortable that Leakey and his group want their theories presented as fact," said Bishop Bonifes Adoyo, head of the largest Pentecostal church in Kenya, the Christ is the Answer Ministries.
"Our doctrine is not that we evolved from apes, and we have grave concerns that the museum wants to enhance the prominence of something presented as fact which is just one theory," the bishop said.
Bishop Adoyo said all the country's churches would unite to force the museum to change its focus when it reopens after eighteen months of renovations in June 2007. "We will write to them, we will call them, we will make sure our people know about this, and we will see what we can do to make our voice known," he said.
It was these comments Leakey termed outrageous. Calling members of the Pentecostal church fundamentalists, Leakey added: "Their theories are far, far from the mainstream on this. They cannot be allowed to meddle with what is the world's leading collection of these types of fossils."
For its part, the museum sounded like it was trying to walk a tightrope. It said it was in a "tricky situation" in trying to redesign its exhibition space for all kinds of visitors.
"We have a responsibility to present all our artifacts in the best way that we can so that everyone who sees them can gain a full understanding of their significance," said Ali Chege, public relations manager for the National Museums of Kenya. "But things can get tricky when you have religious beliefs on one side, and intellectuals, scientists, or researchers on the other, saying the opposite."
Famed paleoanthropologist Richard Leakey is giving no quarter to powerful evangelical church leaders who are pressing Kenya's national museum to relegate to a back room its world-famous collection of hominid fossils showing the evolution of humans' early ancestors.
Leakey called the churches' plans "the most outrageous comments I have ever heard."
He told The Daily Telegraph (London): "The National Museums of Kenya should be extremely strong in presenting a very forceful case for the evolutionary theory of the origins of mankind. The collection it holds is one of Kenya's very few global claims to fame and it must be forthright in defending its right to be at the forefront of this branch of science." Leakey was for years director of the museum and of Kenya's entire museum system.
The museum's collections include the most complete skeleton yet found of Homo erectus, the 1.7-million-year-old Turkana Boy unearthed by Leakey's team in 1984 near Lake Turkana in northern Kenya.
The museum also holds bones from several specimens of Australopithecus anamensis, believed to be the first hominid to walk upright, four million years ago. Together the artifacts amount to the clearest record yet discovered of the origins of Homo sapiens.
Leaders of Kenya's Pentecostal congregation, with six million adherents, want the human fossils de-emphasized.
"The Christian community here is very uncomfortable that Leakey and his group want their theories presented as fact," said Bishop Bonifes Adoyo, head of the largest Pentecostal church in Kenya, the Christ is the Answer Ministries.
"Our doctrine is not that we evolved from apes, and we have grave concerns that the museum wants to enhance the prominence of something presented as fact which is just one theory," the bishop said.
Bishop Adoyo said all the country's churches would unite to force the museum to change its focus when it reopens after eighteen months of renovations in June 2007. "We will write to them, we will call them, we will make sure our people know about this, and we will see what we can do to make our voice known," he said.
It was these comments Leakey termed outrageous. Calling members of the Pentecostal church fundamentalists, Leakey added: "Their theories are far, far from the mainstream on this. They cannot be allowed to meddle with what is the world's leading collection of these types of fossils."
For its part, the museum sounded like it was trying to walk a tightrope. It said it was in a "tricky situation" in trying to redesign its exhibition space for all kinds of visitors.
"We have a responsibility to present all our artifacts in the best way that we can so that everyone who sees them can gain a full understanding of their significance," said Ali Chege, public relations manager for the National Museums of Kenya. "But things can get tricky when you have religious beliefs on one side, and intellectuals, scientists, or researchers on the other, saying the opposite."
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-C Addison
2000 years is not a whole lot of time on the evolutionary ladder, but clearly people are taller now than they were 2000 years ago, stronger, smarter even (arguably). If that's not evolution, then God must have messed up, because were are almost in no way similar to our ancestors who walked this Earth during the time of Christ.
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Really? Can you provide references? I'd love to read them. I doubt very much that you'd be able to observe any significant anatomical changes between us and people 2000 years ago. We may be taller, but I'd imagine its just because we eat better than they did. PS. hairstyles don't count as significant changes.
But yes. As far as I can tell. Evangelism = lunacy.
-C Addison
I don't often do this but I have to give Scubascott some props. There are many people on this board who fervently argue the evolutionist cause with much passion yet they are almost always wrong. Scuba because of his (??) background always gives a more balanced view. With that out of the way the fossils should be displayed.
Have we lost our way tonight?
Have we lost our hope to sorrow?
Feels like were all alone
Running further from what’s right
And there are no more heroes to follow
So what are we becoming?
Where did we go wrong?
People love science.
What they don't like is some goofball claiming opinions and theories are facts.
Maybe one day you'll make the distinction.
Yeah, he should have said "evangelicals" don't like science.
naděje umírá poslední
I posted you the links to some "goofball" scientists saying the same thing.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I just want to say that I think it's very cool that you guys can love each other while not believing the same things. very cool
Re-read the thread on "Free-will" you claimed Gödel's theorum from 1931 was fact and it's been repeatedly refuted by science. You started talking new-age Duality nonsense which basically no scientist believes in.
If you want to argue Cemi field theory fine, I can explain how it doesn't explain Free-will at all. But when you bring new-age psychobabble into a debate there is no way I can debate you. You don't accept science, so it's just psychobabble and that's not much of a debate to me.
I agree!
naděje umírá poslední
Yea, we were just talking about this over the weekend. We gave each other a pat on the back for agreeing to disagree.
I think it's funny when I talk to religious people about demigods and they don't know what I'm talking about. I say "Shit, maybe you outta go back and read the old testament again."
Then I try to explain in further detail, maybe I got the name mixed up, "you know like Loki and Bartlbey and stuff" and there answer is "Nope, never heard of 'em"
Shit, I've only read the Bible once and some of these people claim to have read it 15 times.
Anyway, I don't care, I just think it's funny.
Like jeffbr said, you've got great evangelical zeal, however, like evanglists, your polarized, unrealistic position actually alienates those you seek to convert.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
How about this, since you are claiming something exists that others can not see, the burden of proof is on you. I can easily prove an apple exists, because it does. You have to prove your multiverse exists, I don't have to disprove it.
The only way it can be disproven is for you to go to a psychiatrist. Get an antipsychotic to help with your "experiences". Then it will be disproven.
I can't discuss this logically with you, because you don't understand the logic. You are thinking with your "creativity" side of the brain, which is what leads to psychotic episodes. Psychosis goes back centuries, but in the past people would typically experience unicorns and demons. In modern times it's mostly aliens and out-of-body experiences.. Because pop-culture has changed, but the illness is still the same.
Seriously, you are being a horses-ass. Grow up.
Stay out of it NMyTree.
Still trying to "prove" your "beliefs"?
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Don't give me that shit. Ask any professor of brain studies.
See that's the problem with movies like "What the BLEEP?" it has some good science in it, but it's drastically skewed. So new-agers go and float around the multiverse and claim it's real. Shit, you don't even understand the word "empirical" let-alone what's going on in your brain.
Another example of you trying to "give away your feelings", aka projecting them onto someone else:
If you don't understand the valid interpretations of "empiric" and "empirical" from dictionary.com, and how personal practical experience is 100% valid in this category, then, that means you don't understand. It does not mean that the way I used such words was incorrect. You cannot "give away" your lack of understanding. You cannot effectively project that, or disown it. When you try to do so, you instead prove your lack of understanding.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
"Empirical" does not refer to personal subjective experience!
"A central concept in science and the scientific method is that all evidence must be empirical, or empirically based, that is, dependent on evidence or consequences that are observable by the senses. It is usually differentiated from the philosophic usage of empiricism by the use of the adjective "empirical" or the adverb "empirically.""
In order for it to be "Empirical" I have to be able to "Experience" it as well, everyone has to be able to do it.
"In the philosophy of science, empiricism is a theory of knowledge which emphasizes those aspects of scientific knowledge that are closely related to experience, especially as formed through deliberate experimental arrangements. It is a fundamental requirement of scientific method that all hypotheses and theories must be tested against observations of the natural world, rather than resting solely on a priori reasoning, intuition, or revelation. Hence, science is considered to be methodologically empirical in nature."
I'm not projecting any lack of understanding. My linkage of "What The BLEEP?" was purely for educational purposes. It explains quite in-depth how certain brain functions work. It explains how subjective experience can differ drastically from objective reality. I never once agreed with it's philosophical view that physical reality does not exist. I acknowledged that that view is a dangerous road. I wanted people to watch it to understand synaptic plasticity and the addictiveness of emotion. Which I applaud the video for illustrating quite well.
Entry Word: empirical
Function: adjective
Text: based on observation or experience <guidelines for raising children that are based on empirical evidence>
Synonyms experimental, objective, observational
Related Words actual, factual, genuine, hard, real; accepted, established, tried, tried-and-true; indisputable, undeniable; demonstrable, provable, verifiable
Near Antonyms conjectural, hypothetical, speculative; unproven, unsubstantiated, unverified
Antonyms nonempirical, theoretical (also theoretic)
Yeah, okay. You're delusional.
Fuck off, I understand what I'm talking about, Eva-Angelica-l does not. That is apparent by the above posts.
You are a whiny little kiss-ass and have nothing to contribute besides your backseat driving abilities. Instead of throwing ignorant comments into the discussion to gain the support of Angelica, why don't you put some thought into it and/or stay out of it.
I don't know you, but I'm willing to guess your either a guy or a lesbian. Sex is one of the greatest motivators of our species, and subconsciously people will run to the aid of the opposite sex for no logical reasoning and they don't even know it.
Yeah, the differences between people now and 2000 years ago are mostly due to nutrution - not evolution. You need to think more like 2000 generations.
That being said, anyone who tries to censor what a museum exhibits is a facists. As someone who is highly studied in human evolution (as I've said many times before, I'm probably the board's leading expert in the field), and who works in museums, I guess I'm a good one to talk about this (my dislike for some of Richard Leakey's theories aside). Aside from the fact that the museum is presenting the TRUTH according to EXPERTS, not religious nuts with their heads in the sand, museums are important to economies and culture, and a Kenyan museum that did not display information about the country's contributions to the study of human origins would be a crime against humanity.
Whether you think evolution is purely natural (my belief) or guided by "God" (it's not, but I won't get into that), anyone without a severe bias CANNOT deny that evolution is real and we come from ape anscestors.
-Ashley Montagu
We've had this discussion in the other thread. It's obvious to everyone you have provided zero proof for your opinions, which are based on opinions and theories of others. Spin as you might, nothing you have provided has delivered conclusive proof of anything to support.
On another note, it's interesting to see a self-proclaimed and self-glorified intellectual, resorting to childish name calling, such as " whiny little kiss-ass "