So now can we get rid of Affirmative Action?

unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
edited November 2008 in A Moving Train
A black man has reached the most powerful job on the planet. There should no longer be any excuses for black people to hold whatever job that they strive for.

Thoughts?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    unsung wrote:
    A black man has reached the most powerful job on the planet. There should no longer be any excuses for black people to hold whatever job that they strive for.

    Thoughts?
    maybe AA got him into Harvard.
  • yokeyoke Posts: 1,440
    unsung wrote:
    A black man has reached the most powerful job on the planet. There should no longer be any excuses for black people to hold whatever job that they strive for.

    Thoughts?



    don't be silly, hes only half black... so of course we have to keep it.
    Thats a lovely accent you have. New Jersey?

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  • yoke wrote:
    don't be silly, hes only half black... so of course we have to keep it.

    Yes. But only half of it.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    We should have absolutely gotten rid of it regardless of whether he became President. It serves no good purpose.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • I'm not very popular with a lot of people for what I think about this.

    Affirmative action at the workplace, I might agree since I believe in my heart that racism is very much alive in this country, so with affirmative action in the workplace I'm torn about.

    Affirmative action as far as higher education goes to me is totally unfair. If a white person gets turn down when he/she has got a 4.0 GPA because the institution needs to meet their quota of women, or latinos, or whatever it is they need to meet and the person who takes that place has worse grades or less qualifications, how is that fair? People in this generation should be paying for previous generations mistakes.
    Giving everyone equal opportunity in college based on grades and qualifications not on the color of their skin or their gender will only make people try harder and get better, not expect to get in just because they are a minority.
    "Without the album covers, where do you clean your pot?" - EV
  • gabersgabers Posts: 2,787
    know1 wrote:
    We should have absolutely gotten rid of it regardless of whether he became President. It serves no good purpose.

    Probably not... any more. There was most certainly a time for it though.
  • McJuicyMcJuicy Posts: 752
    both colorado and nebraska had ballot initiatives to "end affirmative action"
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  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    I wouldn't mind seeing an end to affirmative action/
  • You know, it definitely did have it's place and it's time...it's just no longer "here" or "now."

    That's not to say that America has become a totally level playing field--it hasn't. We've made a good deal of progress on race relations since the civil rights movement, but I think if we're going to make any more progress--and there is still quite a ways to go before we're even--we need to stop compensating by perpetuating inequality in a different dynamic.

    I don't think the election of Barack Obama is entirely solid evidence that things are equal--if anything, he's kind of an outlying point on the grid as opposed to the average.
  • Solat13Solat13 Posts: 6,996
    I'm not very popular with a lot of people for what I think about this.

    Affirmative action at the workplace, I might agree since I believe in my heart that racism is very much alive in this country, so with affirmative action in the workplace I'm torn about.

    Affirmative action as far as higher education goes to me is totally unfair. If a white person gets turn down when he/she has got a 4.0 GPA because the institution needs to meet their quota of women, or latinos, or whatever it is they need to meet and the person who takes that place has worse grades or less qualifications, how is that fair? People in this generation should be paying for previous generations mistakes.
    Giving everyone equal opportunity in college based on grades and qualifications not on the color of their skin or their gender will only make people try harder and get better, not expect to get in just because they are a minority.

    Technically the Supreme Court in a confusing decision in 1978 held that while affirmative action systems are constitutional, a quota system based on race is unconstitutional.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regents_of_the_University_of_California_v._Bakke

    Whether or not colleges actually go by that ruling is anyone's guess.
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  • of course we should get rid of affirmative action. because black people are the only minorities.
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  • McJuicyMcJuicy Posts: 752
    what is missing from this discussion is the fact that affirmative action is not limited to equal opportunity based on race, rather any of what are considered "protected groups"
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  • jimed14jimed14 Posts: 9,488
    Not a well worded thread title, so the thread may have been missed, but there were more views here if you are interested ....

    http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=307969
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  • Uncle LeoUncle Leo Posts: 1,059
    I'm not very popular with a lot of people for what I think about this.

    Affirmative action at the workplace, I might agree since I believe in my heart that racism is very much alive in this country, so with affirmative action in the workplace I'm torn about.

    Affirmative action as far as higher education goes to me is totally unfair. If a white person gets turn down when he/she has got a 4.0 GPA because the institution needs to meet their quota of women, or latinos, or whatever it is they need to meet and the person who takes that place has worse grades or less qualifications, how is that fair? People in this generation should be paying for previous generations mistakes.
    Giving everyone equal opportunity in college based on grades and qualifications not on the color of their skin or their gender will only make people try harder and get better, not expect to get in just because they are a minority.

    Funny. I feel the opposite. Minorities come from poorer schools and frequently get off on the wrong competitive foot. I'd rather see class rank emphasized. I cannot say with a straight face that someone in the Minneapolis school district (a decent urban school district) has the opportunity I had in the suburban (Robbinsdale) school district in MN. So if I finish say in the top 20% with a 26 on my ACT (yes, we use ACT, not SAT) and someone from and MPLS school finishes at the same class rank with a 23 on the ACT have I really accomplished more? I don't think so. I may be a bit more prepared so I guess my parents really "earned" that for me. All hail me. If I'd have been stuck at the University of Minnesota instead of the University of Wisconsin (tougher to get into), I'd have had less fun, but I'd have still been able to get my foot into the door. Nobody's getting denied from Harvard and getting stuck at Party State.

    Then in the job market, I'd like to see it all go away. I know there's discrimination. There is also "white guilt". It's almost impossible for an employer to forget about race when hiring two essentially equal people. But if you've been given an educational opportunity in your relative youth, I'd like to see you be on your own in the job market (and the grad school market too).

    Edit: so acutally, I am not necessarily for Affirmative Action as much as the acknowledgment that we are not born with an equal opportunity and that something be done about it. My "initial reaction" is to have much less emphasis on standardized tests (which I did well in) and more on class rank--then no worries about numbers because that should work itself out. Obviously other things are at play (extra curriculars, etc.). It's an art more than a science.
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  • Uncle LeoUncle Leo Posts: 1,059
    unsung wrote:
    A black man has reached the most powerful job on the planet. There should no longer be any excuses for black people to hold whatever job that they strive for.

    Thoughts?
    I don't remember anyone asking whether Bush's presidency meant we can get rid of legacy rules.

    (I understand the argument against affirmative action, but I find it comical that there is no outrage about legacy points. It's not just blacks and poor people that sometimes feel entitlement)
    I cannot come up with a new sig till I get this egg off my face.
  • Uncle Leo wrote:
    Funny. I feel the opposite. Minorities come from poorer schools and frequently get off on the wrong competitive foot. I'd rather see class rank emphasized. I cannot say with a straight face that someone in the Minneapolis school district (a decent urban school district) has the opportunity I had in the suburban (Robbinsdale) school district in MN. So if I finish say in the top 20% with a 26 on my ACT (yes, we use ACT, not SAT) and someone from and MPLS school finishes at the same class rank with a 23 on the ACT have I really accomplished more? I don't think so. I may be a bit more prepared so I guess my parents really "earned" that for me. All hail me. If I'd have been stuck at the University of Minnesota instead of the University of Wisconsin (tougher to get into), I'd have had less fun, but I'd have still been able to get my foot into the door. Nobody's getting denied from Harvard and getting stuck at Party State.

    Yeah but the poorest getting worse education which is not their fault, is another thing we need to fix in this country, the government needs to help with this.
    I mean lets not even get to college, lets just talk about the school level as you mentioned, I can't disagree with you on that but they are all public schools (well at least the ones I'm talking about) and all children should have access to good education regardless of what district they live in :(
    I know though we are far away from that still
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  • PJ_SalukiPJ_Saluki Posts: 1,006
    I honestly don't think I've ever been affected by it one way or another. I do know that the NFL's "Rooney Rule" is a good thing. The eponymous rule conceived by Pittsburgh Steelers owner Dan Rooney helped my favorite team get a face-to-face with Mike Tomlin. The Steelers were so impressed with him they their first black head coach and he's done a damn good job.
    "Almost all those politicians took money from Enron, and there they are holding hearings. That's like O.J. Simpson getting in the Rae Carruth jury pool." -- Charles Barkley
  • unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    PJ_Saluki wrote:
    I honestly don't think I've ever been affected by it one way or another. I do know that the NFL's "Rooney Rule" is a good thing. The eponymous rule conceived by Pittsburgh Steelers owner Dan Rooney helped my favorite team get a face-to-face with Mike Tomlin. The Steelers were so impressed with him they their first black head coach and he's done a damn good job.


    I think that rule only patronizes the black community.
  • Uncle LeoUncle Leo Posts: 1,059
    Yeah but the poorest getting worse education which is not their fault, is another thing we need to fix in this country, the government needs to help with this.
    I mean lets not even get to college, lets just talk about the school level as you mentioned, I can't disagree with you on that but they are all public schools (well at least the ones I'm talking about) and all children should have access to good education regardless of what district they live in :(
    I know though we are far away from that still

    I agree. It would be great if every kid had a great K-12 education. If that truly happened, I'd not want to not even worry about evening it out in college or the job market.
    I cannot come up with a new sig till I get this egg off my face.
  • PJ_SalukiPJ_Saluki Posts: 1,006
    unsung wrote:
    I think that rule only patronizes the black community.

    I don't agree. Most NFL teams will go with also-ran coaches (read white) for interviews. Since there have been so few black coaches (or Latino coaches in Ron Rivera's case) they don't have the advantage of being a safe choice for an interview. NFL teams would also simply make their first choice because it seems safer. That's bullshit in a league that's at least 75 percent black from a player standpoint. The Rooney family took a chance on an untested assistant in his mid 30s because of the rule, liked what they saw, and then made a great hire. It took Tony Dungy two decades of being a top assistant coach to get a job in Tampa. That's too long for a coach who took teams to NFC and AFC championships and then won a Super Bowl. Besides, maybe black assistant coaches in the NFL don't feel at all patronized by the rule.
    "Almost all those politicians took money from Enron, and there they are holding hearings. That's like O.J. Simpson getting in the Rae Carruth jury pool." -- Charles Barkley
  • unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    What about a few years ago when the Lions wanted Mariucci, he became available and they got him, without interviewing a black candidate. If they were dead set on hiring him in the beginning, as they were, interviewing a black candidate would have been a waste of everyone's time.

    So now if Dungy were to be released from the Colts and say a team wanted him bad should they be forced to interview someone from every ethnicity that is represented in the league?

    If we are ever to get past racism we need to start treating everyone equal and with the same standards.
  • jimed14jimed14 Posts: 9,488
    unsung wrote:
    What about a few years ago when the Lions wanted Mariucci, he became available and they got him, without interviewing a black candidate. If they were dead set on hiring him in the beginning, as they were, interviewing a black candidate would have been a waste of everyone's time.

    So now if Dungy were to be released from the Colts and say a team wanted him bad should they be forced to interview someone from every ethnicity that is represented in the league?

    If we are ever to get past racism we need to start treating everyone equal and with the same standards.

    That rule was needed at some point ... but, it doesn't seem they do anymore ... Dungy, Romeo Crennel, Lovie Smith, Mike Singletary, Marvin Lewis, Herm Edwards, Mike Tomlin ... (did I miss any?) ... they needed to do it to get the ball rolling, because the NFL just kept rotating the same shitty white coaches over and over ... but, it worked, now they have proved that black head coaches can be every bit as good, and shitty, as white coaches.

    But, overall, I think the rule was a success.
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  • justamjustam Posts: 21,412
    unsung wrote:
    A black man has reached the most powerful job on the planet. There should no longer be any excuses for black people to hold whatever job that they strive for.

    Thoughts?

    I think affirmative action is one of the reasons things have changed.

    It was kinda like a parent forcing kids to share. It has become a habit now--which is good.

    People have become accustomed to the mix of races and genders in the work place more than they would have been without the enforced "sharing" of opportunities.
    &&&&&&&&&&&&&&
  • As far as I am concerned, Affirmative action is OVER.
    I never want to hear about it again. We are all equal. Its over with.
    Get em a Body Bag Yeeeeeaaaaa!
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  • PJ_SalukiPJ_Saluki Posts: 1,006
    Quote from Timothy Egan's column in the Nov. 6 New York Times.

    "Obama’s ascendancy is likely to have the ironic effect of ending affirmative action, and the old identity politics. He became only the second Democrat since Franklin Roosevelt to win more than 51 percent of the popular vote not because he’s black, but because he is smarter, with better ideas, and showed leadership under fire. This was a victory for meritocracy.

    If affirmative action survives, it will be more class-based, as Obama suggested on the campaign trail."
    "Almost all those politicians took money from Enron, and there they are holding hearings. That's like O.J. Simpson getting in the Rae Carruth jury pool." -- Charles Barkley
  • PJ_Saluki wrote:


    If affirmative action survives, it will be more class-based, as Obama suggested on the campaign trail."

    The Times is a super far left newspaper.
    So now we have to still accept affirmative action if a person makes under a certian amount of money?
    No thanks, thats bullshit. Its over IMO.
    Get em a Body Bag Yeeeeeaaaaa!
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  • digsterdigster Posts: 1,293
    As of today, less than 30% of students in all colleges are minorities, which is a hell of an improvement from less than twenty years ago. Today, I believe the number of minorities in so-called 'elite institutions' was at approximately 10%. That being said, affirmative action never sat quite right with me, at least when it came to the workplace. The entire idea of affirmative action is to get minorities the proper training so they will do better, which means their kids will do better, etc. Problem is it serves nobody any good to elevate someone to a position that does not have the proper training and would perform inadequately due to the lack of training. It doesn't serve the business any good, and it doesn't serve the employee any good. The trick is not to get that individual the job, it is to get him the training, it is to get him an education. I understand the use of affirmative action in education better in this regard, but I still feel like it is an inadequate and ill-fitting band-aid on a bullet wound to the head. It's not solving the real problems. The need is to build equal opportunities, or as close as possible, from elementary schools on up. And ideally, with the improvement of our school system from an early age, more and more black students will make the leap to elite colleges without affirmative action, and the process could die away.

    See, the problem with many conservatives when it comes to this issue is that they poo-poo this issue, and simultaneously shoot down any alternatives. If I had my way, I'd do away with affirmative action, but I would heartily increase the money for early childhood education. I'd rebuild every school in the country. I'd make sure kids in the inner cities had smaller class sizes, access to college counselors, and adequate after-school centers. When I float these options, you call it 'welfare.' So what the hell are we supposed to do then? Affirmative action may not be the answer, but going on "as is" is not the answer, either. So until you get serious about supporting these programs and properly funding them, it sounds like you have no solutions to offer besides "Affirmative Action Bad!!!!"
  • Gonzo1977Gonzo1977 Posts: 1,696
    I think an important thing to remember as someone else stated earlier, is that we all don't start out on equal ground.

    The odds are stacked on anyone coming from the poorest of neiborhoods and upbringings compared to that of people who automatically Inherit wealth and privilege.

    There are many in this country (no fault of their own) that automatically inherit the access to the top schools, and social networking outlets that the poorest in this country simply do not have.

    Although I ultimately believe that true talent shines through in the end, I don't see it unfair to give someone the equal opportunity and a fighting chance to compete.

    That being said, I can also see the flip side of the coin where some may argue that Afirmative Action is simply currput and nothing more than an unfair punishment put in place to ease our "White Guilt".

    Personally, I think this ultimatley is a product of a broken class system in this country and one that we are merely putting a bandage over rather than focusing on healing a much bigger cut.
  • puremagicpuremagic Posts: 1,907
    unsung wrote:
    A black man has reached the most powerful job on the planet. There should no longer be any excuses for black people to hold whatever job that they strive for.

    Thoughts?


    So if Obama had lost the election, would affirmative action still be necessary? How about Palin or Hiliary, both of whom, as minorities can use the affirmative action laws, because I'm sure you know that affirmative action was not just for blacks.

    Funny how you never hear these colleges with high profile football and basketball teams complaining about affirmative action. These universities that draw millions of dollars for the sports programs. Athletes on full scholarships, that the read and write on a jr. high level. Athletes who's mathematical, science and english skills make you shudder, yet they somehow always maintain the NCAA qualify grade level.

    I'd like to see affirmative action done away with, it can always be reinstituted if needed.
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  • Jeremy1012Jeremy1012 Posts: 7,170
    The Times is a super far left newspaper.
    So now we have to still accept affirmative action if a person makes under a certian amount of money?
    No thanks, thats bullshit. Its over IMO.
    Super far left? :D You've never read many super far left newspapers have you?
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