Using a fake SS card is no longer a crime?

unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
edited July 2008 in A Moving Train
A Federal judge in Tenn. today in a case against illegal aliens ruled that having fake social security cards was not against the law.


No link yet just heard it on CNN.


Does anyone have a backbone anymore? I guess he has never experienced identity theft.
Post edited by Unknown User on

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  • OpenOpen Posts: 792
    unsung wrote:
    A Federal judge in Tenn. today in a case against illegal aliens ruled that having fake social security cards was not against the law.


    No link yet just heard it on CNN.


    Does anyone have a backbone anymore? I guess he has never experienced identity theft.


    You really know how to convey the story. I wish some people had the backbone to embrace truth rather than bias....

    http://timesfreepress.com/news/2008/jul/08/chattanooga-use-false-ids-not-necessarily-illegal-/?local

    Chattanooga: Use of false IDs not necessarily illegal in Pilgrim’s Pride case


    By: Monica Mercer
    (Contact)


    John MacCoon - Download MP3-
    A federal judge has suggested that when two men used fake Social Security cards to gain employment at the local Pilgrim’s Pride plant, they might not technically have broken the law.

    Juan Luis Dardon-Canelo and Andres Loarca-Reynoso, along with three others, are being criminally prosecuted in the wake of a large immigration raid in April. The pair arrived in court Monday expecting to plead guilty to using a fraudulent illegal identification document — a Social Security card — to get jobs at Pilgrim’s Pride.

    U.S. District Judge Harry S. Mattice’s suggestion that a Social Security card is not necessarily a form of identification, however, has allowed more time for the defense to evaluate whether guilty pleas are appropriate.

    “I’m not sure you can base this charge on a false Social Security card,” Judge Mattice said during the hearing, noting that another federal judge dropped a similar charge against Tyson Foods because of a loophole in U.S. immigration law.

    The 2003 Tyson Foods trial in Chattanooga concerned allegations, among other things, that the company had smuggled Mexicans across the border to work at various plants.

    PDF: Andres Loarca Reynoso

    PDF: Juan Luis Dardon Canelo
    The government accused Tyson of hiring the Mexicans even though the company knew they were using false ID documents — in this case, Social Security cards, too — in order to get jobs. But the defense argued that the portion of U.S. immigration law under which the company was charged does not expressly list a Social Security card as a form of ID.

    U.S. District Judge R. Allan Edgar agreed, dismissing the charge in the process. A jury eventually acquitted Tyson Foods of all charges.

    Article: Chattanooga: Use of false IDs not necessarily illegal in Pilgrim’s Pride case

    Assistant U.S. Attorney John MacCoon, who prosecuted the Tyson case, said Judge Edgar’s decision highlighted “the lack of legislative precision in the (immigration statute)” since Social Security cards are considered ID in other portions of the law.

    “It’s a very convoluted, confusing statute,” Mr. MacCoon said.

    Defense attorney Anthony Martinez said after Monday’s hearing he was not aware of the ruling in the Tyson case and had “no idea” whether it would affect his clients.

    Assistant U.S. Attorney Terra Bay also said she was not aware of the 2003 case, but she told Judge Mattice she did not oppose allowing extra time for both sides to rethink their strategies.

    A new court date has not been set. Mr. Loarca-Reynoso’s plan to plead guilty to a second charge of illegally entering the country after previously being deported also was postponed.

    Three other men charged with various immigration violations resulting from the raid — Roberto Gabriel-Ramirez, Jose Luis Ramirez-Vasquez and Alfredo Gabriel-Torres — are set to plead guilty in the near future. It was not clear Monday whether those intended guilty pleas could be affected by the Tyson case as well.
  • Heineken HelenHeineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    Open wrote:

    PDF: Juan Luis Dardon Canelo
    The government accused Tyson of hiring the Mexicans even though the company knew they were using false ID documents — in this case, Social Security cards, too — in order to get jobs. But the defense argued that the portion of U.S. immigration law under which the company was charged does not expressly list a Social Security card as a form of ID.

    U.S. District Judge R. Allan Edgar agreed, dismissing the charge in the process. A jury eventually acquitted Tyson Foods of all charges.



    Defense attorney Anthony Martinez said after Monday’s hearing he was not aware of the ruling in the Tyson case and had “no idea” whether it would affect his clients.

    Assistant U.S. Attorney Terra Bay also said she was not aware of the 2003 case, but she told Judge Mattice she did not oppose allowing extra time for both sides to rethink their strategies.
    I wouldn't get too excited... the Tyson case was a COMPANY getting away with stuff that people get put away for every day of the fucking week. No big news there then :mad:
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  • Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    when you consider the hilarity that is Social Security anyway, Why not add a few more trillion on?

    The people who paid into it years ago have had their money spent for years. There isn't an account, it's immediately spent. They call any money in an account a surplus. So workers today are completely paying for people living on it now and there are soon to be less workers than there are people paying in. The only thing keeping Social Security around are the workers who are forced to pay into it and the governments ability to never have bad credit no matter how many bad checks it writes.. after all they print money right?

    The problem with social security is that the government can't keep it's hands off that money. If it's supposed to be forced savings, then invest it. Unfortunately it's spent the second it comes in and has been for years. Oh well.

    As far as immigration is concerned. I still wish there were people in government with enough integrity to imprison and seize assets for any businesses employing illegal immigrants. That would put a stop very quickly to all of this business of illicit labor. You get caught making fake documentation... a few years in a road labor camp would stop that pretty quickly.
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  • puremagicpuremagic Posts: 1,907
    If nothing else, this post shows that with all the ongoing stink over illegals and american jobs. Companies don't give a damn if Americans have jobs, all they care about is profit and hiring illegals so that the company doesn't have to pay benefits, including social security, IRS, state or local taxes and are willing to go to court to protect that right. Would you want to, or could you even afford to take one of these corporations to court for a minimum wage job?

    So when you're boiling mad over illegals 'taking' jobs away from Americans. Try thinking in terms of American companies 'giving' illegals your jobs.

    Wonder why none of the candidates are talking about illegal immigration any more. Keep your eyes on the Trans-Texas corridor project.

    Ron Paul had it right. http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul349.html
    SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
  • OpenOpen Posts: 792
    I wouldn't get too excited... the Tyson case was a COMPANY getting away with stuff that people get put away for every day of the fucking week. No big news there then :mad:


    Look at the first post in this thread, then look at the article. If you want to blame the company fine. The first post Fox 101; reminds me of this...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoM90bAsr1M
  • puremagicpuremagic Posts: 1,907
    The SSN is a recognized identification method for a specific person. Any judge with common sense, a hint of legal background or simply by having a job, knows that the procedure to obtain a SSN card required other identifying documentation. A fake SSN represents fraud to gain entry and employment within this country.

    Even the Passport application ask for a SSN. Why, because they are specific to one person. yes, they can be forged, but a forgery at some point can be detected. So having a fake SSN is a crime.

    This just shows what a sad state of political shambles our judicial system has become, when a U.S. Judge rules against the validity of the SSN as a recognized identification method for a specific person.

    ============
    PART I

    http://www.d1064099.matchpointhosting.com/article-119.htm
    Work Eligibility Without a Social Security Number
    March 10, 2006

    What happens when a foreign national is in possession of a recently issued alien registration card/I-551 passport stamp (”green card”), employment authorization document OR work visa, wants to work, but has yet to be issued a social security number?

    Unfortunately this question arises all too often these days as the Social Security Administration is anything but swift when it comes to issuing Social Security numbers for those with valid immigration documentation. In fact, it is not uncommon for the individual to wait more than 2 or 3 months following their submission of their Social Security application to be issued a number.

    For certain, no provision of immigration or labor law prevents an employer from allowing such a foreign worker to start work, as long that worker’s Social Security application is on file and the worker is otherwise in possession of valid immigration that authorizes employment. It is just a matter of the employer having to make logistical arrangements for their payroll system to accommodate the delay, while the worker awaits issuance of their number. And of course it is up to the worker to provide their employer with the number as soon as it is issued, so appropriate tax reporting measures can be taken.
    ==================

    Hey Judge, they used FAKE cards, even with a green card they are given some leeway. All they had to do was to produce their green cards and their application for a pending SSN. Barring these procedures, they're illegals who are subject to deportation and the company is subject to fines. Same should have been done with Tyson.



    PART II

    http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/100004.pdf


    1) Application for Passport,

    Box 5 of the application asks for a SSN #, it allows for a person to use zeros if they do not have one. However, throughout the entire instruction of this application it states that "Temporary or altered documents are not acceptable."

    2) page 3 of 4, Instructions for filling out the Application for Passport

    paragraph reads as follows:

    Federal Tax Law

    Section 6039E of the Internal Revenue Code (26 U.S.C. 6039E) requires you to provide your Social Security Number (SSN), if you have one, when you apply for a U.S. passport or renewal of a U.S. passport. If you have not been issued a SSN, enter zeros in box $5 of this form. If you are residing abroad, you must also provide the name of the foreign country in which you are residing. The Department of State m ust provide your SSN and foreign residence information to the Department of Treasury. If you fail to provide the information, you are subject to a $500 penalty enforced by the IRS. All questions on this matter should be directed to the nearest IRS office.

    3) A forged SSN card represents fraud. Fraud is a crime. How simple is that law?
    SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
  • acoustic guyacoustic guy Posts: 3,770
    unsung wrote:
    A Federal judge in Tenn. today in a case against illegal aliens ruled that having fake social security cards was not against the law.


    No link yet just heard it on CNN.


    Does anyone have a backbone anymore? I guess he has never experienced identity theft.
    If that is true then I think I am gonna be sick.
    I am so fucking fed up with this type of bullshit.
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  • Urban HikerUrban Hiker Posts: 1,312
    The SSN needs to be replaced.

    I can't believe how many states have used it as a driver's license # and schools/employers as an ID #.

    No integrity has been maintained. That is why they have been so easily exploited by criminals.

    Still, this ruling is bullshit.
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  • puremagicpuremagic Posts: 1,907
    The SSN needs to be replaced.

    I can't believe how many states have used it as a driver's license # and schools/employers as an ID #.

    No integrity has been maintained. That is why they have been so easily exploited by criminals.

    Still, this ruling is bullshit.



    The Patriot Act, Public Law 108-458, National Intelligence Reform Act of 2004 does NOT allow for social security numbers to be displayed on driver licenses or identification cards.

    If your identification card number is also your social security number, you will be required to visit a DMV Service Center for renewal in order to obtain a new photo.

    Employer can not supercede this law and force employees to carry ID that display their SSN.
    SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,497
    puremagic wrote:
    The Patriot Act, Public Law 108-458, National Intelligence Reform Act of 2004 does NOT allow for social security numbers to be displayed on driver licenses or identification cards.

    If your identification card number is also your social security number, you will be required to visit a DMV Service Center for renewal in order to obtain a new photo.

    Employer can not supercede this law and force employees to carry ID that display their SSN.


    But the damage is done...it as used far to often in the past.
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  • puremagicpuremagic Posts: 1,907
    But the damage is done...it as used far to often in the past.


    Yes, but there are still people out there who don't know they have this right. This is one step that allows people get a handle on repairing that damage.

    Identity fraud is such a nightmare to repair, but at least you know you have an opportunity to put such people in prison.
    SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
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