Pro-Israel Lobby in American Christianity
ArmsinaV
Posts: 108
First of all, I'm a Christian. I believe in the inclusive message of Christ, the breaking down of social barriers through a common bond, and the support Christ's church gives to the poor and the oppressed. I believe in a relational church as well as a spiritual church that reaches to meet people where they are and helps those who need it most.
Also, I come from Jewish heritage and Jewish immigrants who traveled to NYC around 1900.
I've been doing a bit of research on this, and I already know what most people think about Israel on this board. They're occupiers and the cause of the conflict in "Palestine" today. I don't believe that's a fair/complete assessment, but that's not the purpose of my post.
Rather, I think it should be absolutely known how scary it is - particularly for Christians - at how politically minded and power driven the pro-Israel Christian movement is, especially the followers of a "pastor" named John Hagee.
If you don't know John Hagee by name, you may by face. He's on the ultra-ridiculous Christian TV networks constantly. His "theology" actually claims that God wants Christians to be rich, and the best way to show faith is - you guessed it - give him money. In other words, if you're poor, your faith is lacking. If you're rich, God loves you.
He also claims that it is a Christian duty to support Israel for the sake of biblical prophecy. Without going into too much detail, the guy thinks that the end is soon and that we must attack Iran ASAP.
Frankly, this kind of thing scares me to death. The church of Jesus is a spiritual call to live in pursuit of the things the world does not value. Money. Power. Fame. This guy flies directly in the face of that, and, to boot, he tries to influence foreign policy via some crackpot interpretation of the Bible. He's the absolute opposite of Jesus, yet many follow him in Jesus' name.
Anyway, I'm all for exposing this liar. Here is his web site and his "Exodus II" program, which raises money for Jews to return to Israel. He is a meglomaniac and a swindler of the worst kind. Essentially, to him, Zionism is Christianity, and vice versa.
I'm curious to see what other Christians on this board think of Hagee, as well.
http://www.jhm.org/
Also, I come from Jewish heritage and Jewish immigrants who traveled to NYC around 1900.
I've been doing a bit of research on this, and I already know what most people think about Israel on this board. They're occupiers and the cause of the conflict in "Palestine" today. I don't believe that's a fair/complete assessment, but that's not the purpose of my post.
Rather, I think it should be absolutely known how scary it is - particularly for Christians - at how politically minded and power driven the pro-Israel Christian movement is, especially the followers of a "pastor" named John Hagee.
If you don't know John Hagee by name, you may by face. He's on the ultra-ridiculous Christian TV networks constantly. His "theology" actually claims that God wants Christians to be rich, and the best way to show faith is - you guessed it - give him money. In other words, if you're poor, your faith is lacking. If you're rich, God loves you.
He also claims that it is a Christian duty to support Israel for the sake of biblical prophecy. Without going into too much detail, the guy thinks that the end is soon and that we must attack Iran ASAP.
Frankly, this kind of thing scares me to death. The church of Jesus is a spiritual call to live in pursuit of the things the world does not value. Money. Power. Fame. This guy flies directly in the face of that, and, to boot, he tries to influence foreign policy via some crackpot interpretation of the Bible. He's the absolute opposite of Jesus, yet many follow him in Jesus' name.
Anyway, I'm all for exposing this liar. Here is his web site and his "Exodus II" program, which raises money for Jews to return to Israel. He is a meglomaniac and a swindler of the worst kind. Essentially, to him, Zionism is Christianity, and vice versa.
I'm curious to see what other Christians on this board think of Hagee, as well.
http://www.jhm.org/
2000: Lubbock; 2003: OKC, Dallas, San Antonio; 2006: Los Angeles II, San Diego; 2008: Atlanta (EV Solo); 2012: Dallas (EV Solo); 2013: Dallas; 2014: Tulsa; 2018: Wrigley I
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But having been up close with Brother Pat and Ben Kinchloe as a youngster back in the early days of the 700 Club, the support for Israel in that community, albeit based on biblical prophecy, has been an ongoing thing for decades.
Crazy enough as it sounds, they see the biblical prophecy as some sort of destined fate for Israel in some fashion or another (nuclear, mass destruction, etc...) so they need the state to exist to fulfill their messianic beliefs.
so yeah, JC's name has been hijacked left and right
How true. I am in the process of reading Tolstoy's "The Kingdom of Heaven is Within You" and he is all fired up because the church doesn't really teach the sermon on the mount anymore. I reread it...and he's absolutely right. you don't hear many church men talking about that....
-Big Fish
—Dorothy Parker
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6902/conspiracytheoriesxt6qt8.jpg
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7804933329125812633
biblical 'prophecies' such as those cited in Daniel and Revelation are not coming in the future. Such interpretations are wrong and dangerous. Revelation is a figurative book, written about things that have already happened. (The collapse of Rome, etc.) People who misunderstand it are misunderstanding the message of Christ.
The message is about what is now, what is here. The Kingdom is here, it has come. It is the church. The message is not get ready for a Kirk Cameron-promoted apocalypse, rapture, or "tribulation". Belief in those things automatically turn the church and its believers into a group that is constantly on the watch, trying to assess world events, trying to interpret symbols in Revelation, trying to foretell what God has said no man knows. The church was meant for much more than that.
The book of Revelation does not concern itself with Israel, as a new dispensation had been established through Jesus Christ. The book of the Prophets in the Old Testament concerned themselves with the Jews because God's promise was still with them. Not until after Christ came, did that change. The book of Revelation does not speak about the siege of Solomon's temple... only in the Old Prophets are these mentioned. The Revelation is simply about the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Also, the Bible speaks about a form of rapture... not that I believe in it... neither do I believe in the 7 Year Tribulation... a 3 1/2 yrs of peace and prosperity, then another 3 1/2 yrs of tribulation. But Paul makes certain references of a rapture-like event that will take place:
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: 'Death is swallowed in victory.'
and also
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Rather than having to discuss a contrarious belief, I agree with you. The message is about what is taking place at hand. Not some Hagee concept, or a sinner-bashing feast of scaring people with monsters with seven heads of different animals and thousand horns or some dragon with a pregnant woman on top. As you said, these are all metaphorical and have their own meaning... what most of it means, I have no idea.
what we see happening in the middle-east are things that the Bible has already spoken about... it goes back all the way to Ishmael and Isaac.
The Christian right used to consistently oppose war. Just War was the only type of war they would support, and only if it was for good reason. The methods were also a major part of Just War.
Now you've got Christians who support pre-emptive war, the antithesis of Just War. I am frustrated by many protestant Christians who believe support of Israel is essential to our Christian faith. That's not true at all.
God exiled the Jews from Israel to Babylon of His own accord. Who are we to say that Palestinians must be cast off their lands simply because a mere 6 million Jews must live in a land that their people only held for roughly 75 years?
I support Israel's right to exist, but I do not support more U.S. intervention in foreign affairs that do not directly affect us.
-Enoch Powell
"Faith is the key to divine health and healing. Remember, your faith should not be placed in the person who prays for you. ... Release your faith and receive your healing today."
anyone who preaches the prosperity gospel and preaches you just have to have enough faith and you'll be healed has got a few screws loose. I always had to chuckle at the if you have enough faith crowd...I believe God can heal anything, but he's under no obligation to.... don't those people at some point always die?? Wouldn't that mean they lost faith. Also, where does it say that God wants everyone to be rich. There's more against being wealthy and being controlled by wealth in the bible than there is saying you should be wealthy. argh.
Luke 18:25
"Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Hagee must have forgotten this.
The Christian faith grew from the most basic grassroots movement to something that is anything but. The church should be organic, practical, humble, and engaging. Not corporate, flashy, and arrogant. People have confused the certainty of Christ's message with the certainty that only they are fit enough to be a part of it.
If you see a guy preaching about the Glory of Jesus on your television screen. Chances are, he's probably more interested in your money than your soul.
Hail, Hail!!!
Awesome post.
Thanks.
I've been doing a lot of thinking/reading about what it means to be a Christian in America, in light of today's political atmosphere. I was raised to "speak where the Bible speaks, be silent where it's silent", etc.
And while I believe in the message of Christ and his Church, I wonder if it is promoted the way he intended. Time after time, Christ and his followers met the world where it is. He engaged people where they stood. He didn't ask them to see him or listen to him where he was/is.
We live in a postmodern society that inherently questions religion, absolutes, and institutions. We don't live in a society where people give authority to a preacher because he's a preacher. In fact, the situation is quite the opposite. So, what do Christians do with the good news? Do they essentially preach to themselves and condem everyone else for not listening? Well, that's been tried and I don't think it works. Do they ignore the difficult aspects of Christ's message and pretend Jesus is like everyone else? Well, that's been tried and I don't think it works either.
The answer, I think, is to show just how appealing the church is when it's not morphed into something else. It's not a political tool of the Republican party, or "liberation theologians" who use the Bible to promote marxists policies. I believe the church is, literally, people sitting around, helping with the difficulties of life, inviting others to a meal/discussion about their problems, and the church will grow when those things happen. I am a part of a group that gets together and discusses how hard life is, basically, and why we feel the example of Jesus is the answer. Yes, there's more to it than that, but that's where it should start.
It really is a radical approach to life. It was when Christ was around and it is today. The idea is that life is tough, we all need help, and this guy says he's the best way to get/give it. That's it.
The church is not a huge building with a lame 30-something preacher who is trying to act like a teenager and hip up his message with bleached highlights and a cool band in the background that "rocks for Jesus". And it's not a fat spinster who wants to be at the forefront of biblical "prophecies" because it means he lives the life of a rich, important man. And it's not a bunch of old people who think the church is dying because it's going soft, who shake their heads at all the liberals in the media, scared to death what will happen when George Bush leaves office.
Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, render unto God what is God's.
-Enoch Powell
Not a bad point. The term "church" when used biblically is not a reference to a building at all. The term "church" is used to describe the worldwide body of Christ followers. It is a reference to people, not structure.
That being said, the church is as diverse politically as is the general public. Left right and all points inbetween. It is not ones political leanings that make them a member of the "church", but their faith in and desire to follow the example set by Christ.