Army Medic guilty of desertion

Sludge FactorySludge Factory Posts: 976
edited March 2007 in A Moving Train
Just wanted to hear everyone's thoughts on this

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070306/ap_on_re_eu/war_objector

WUERZBURG, Germany - A U.S. Army medic who refused to return to Iraq because of his opposition to the war was convicted of desertion at his court martial Tuesday, and could face as long as seven years in prison.

Spc. Agustin Aguayo, whose case has been closely watched by American anti-war groups, opened the one-day proceeding on a U.S. base in Germany by admitting he intentionally avoided his deployment back to Iraq.

Aguayo has said in the past that he had refused to return to Iraq because he believes war is immoral, and that he could "no longer go down this path."

Though Aguayo only pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of being absent without leave, Judge Col. R. Peter Masterton sided with prosecutors in finding him guilty of the more severe charge of desertion. He also was found guilty of missing a troop deployment.

Masterton did not immediately issue a sentence, which can also include loss of pay, demotion to the lowest enlisted rank and a dishonorable discharge.

The 35-year-old with the 1st Infantry Division's 2nd Brigade Combat Team served a year as a combat medic in Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit in 2004 after the military turned down his request to be considered a conscientious objector.

He then jumped out of a window of his base housing in Germany on Sept. 2 rather than be forced to ship out for a second tour and fled home to California.

He turned himself in to the military at California's Fort Irwin about three weeks later.

As his court martial opened, Aguayo admitted to the facts of the case in a short statement.

"I understand that the formation was to move ... to Iraq your honor," he told the judge in a quiet, wavering voice. "Yes, I deliberately stayed away from the movement. I knew that I wouldn't be making this movement."
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Comments

  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    with a war that has gone on this long, of course you are going to find some who refuse to go back.
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    I understand he doesn't like war...so why did he enlist in the army? That is one of the possibilities when you sign up. If he was supposed to go and left his troops like he admitted, then he is a deserter. If he felt that strongly about it then I'm glad he stood up for that but he should be willing to pay the price for his actions.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • Welcome to contradictionville Mr. Aguayo....population, you.
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    chopitdown wrote:
    I understand he doesn't like war...so why did he enlist in the army?
    I have worked in IT for 5 years now. I am in the middle of deciding to change careers. not nearly the same but you get the point. people can change their minds about the path they choose
  • RushlimboRushlimbo Posts: 832
    jlew24asu wrote:
    I have worked in IT for 5 years now. I am in the middle of deciding to change careers. not nearly the same but you get the point. people can change their minds about the path they choose

    Exactly. People's perspectives change all the time (hopefully). Perhaps this soldier is against this type of war but when he enlisted thought he would be fighting a different war (on terror, etc....).
    War is Peace
    Freedom is Slavery
    Ignorance is Strength
  • even flow?even flow? Posts: 8,066
    chopitdown wrote:
    I understand he doesn't like war...so why did he enlist in the army? That is one of the possibilities when you sign up. If he was supposed to go and left his troops like he admitted, then he is a deserter. If he felt that strongly about it then I'm glad he stood up for that but he should be willing to pay the price for his actions.

    Maybe it is like joining al-q and then finding out they want you to fly a plane?
    You've changed your place in this world!
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    jlew24asu wrote:
    I have worked in IT for 5 years now. I am in the middle of deciding to change careers. not nearly the same but you get the point. people can change their minds about the path they choose

    I know...and there are channels to go about doing that or consequences for not following the channels. Anyone can change their mind at any time, but they are not free from the reality / consequences of that choice.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • Rushlimbo wrote:
    Exactly. People's perspectives change all the time (hopefully). Perhaps this soldier is against this type of war but when he enlisted thought he would be fighting a different war (on terror, etc....).

    If your "perspective" is chaging all the time, perhaps you should refrain from signing contracts that state otherwise.
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    even flow? wrote:
    Maybe it is like joining al-q and then finding out they want you to fly a plane?

    if that were the case he'd be "free" to leave al-q then as well.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    If your "perspective" is chaging all the time, perhaps you should refrain from signing contracts that state otherwise.

    do people in the military sign contracts? I really dont know.

    impossible to avoid consequences when you sign the dotted line
  • jlew24asu wrote:
    do people in the military sign contracts? I really dont know.

    http://www.rethinkingschools.org/archive/19_03/military_enlistment.pdf
    impossible to avoid consequences when you sign the dotted line

    Yep.
  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    jlew24asu wrote:
    do people in the military sign contracts? I really dont know.

    impossible to avoid consequences when you sign the dotted line

    http://usmilitary.about.com/library/pdf/enlistment.pdf

    minimum of 8 years service...unless discharged sooner 10.A
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118


    o yea I knew this. he deserves what punishment he gets. although in this case, I have a feeling he would welcome such punishment to avoid going back to war. o well, in other countries you get the firing squad for deserting.
  • jlew24asu wrote:
    o yea I knew this. he deserves what punishment he gets. although in this case, I have a feeling he would welcome such punishment to avoid going back to war. o well, in other countries you get the firing squad for deserting.

    I agree. Personally, I think the Army should fully allow "conscientious" dissent without harsh punishment so long as the dissenters repay benefits they've received while in the Armed forces and forgo future benefits.
  • CollinCollin Posts: 4,931
    Why did they turn down his request?
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  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    I agree. Personally, I think the Army should fully allow "conscientious" dissent without harsh punishment so long as the dissenters repay benefits they've received while in the Armed forces and forgo future benefits.

    Even in the case of an illegal war? People keep forgetting that. This war is illegal.

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  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    gue_barium wrote:
    Even in the case of an illegal war? People keep forgetting that. This war is illegal.

    the government owns the soldiers. Your opinion regarding the legality of the war doesn't make it legal or illegal, people keep forgetting that as well.
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    chopitdown wrote:
    the government owns the soldiers. Your opinion regarding the legality of the war doesn't make it legal or illegal, people keep forgetting that as well.

    It isn't an opinion, it is a fact. Also, even though I was in the Armed Forces, I certainly wasn't "owned" by the government.

    "The UN Charter outlines two grounds on which you can lawfully engage in armed conflict – one is article 42 of the charter which says that you act together with other states once that action has been explicitly authorized by the United Nations Security Council. That didn't happen in the case of Iraq.

    The other provision is article 51 of the UN Charter, which is about self defence. That didn't apply in the case of Iraq either."

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  • gue_barium wrote:
    Even in the case of an illegal war? People keep forgetting that. This war is illegal.

    There's no such thing as an "illegal war". It makes no sense. I'm totally in agreement with this guy that this is an immoral war, but illegal? Sorry, that just doesn't work.

    Regardless, this guy signed away his right to have moral qualms about things. If he wants to desert, so be it and I applaud his decision. But he must own up to his obligations.
  • RushlimboRushlimbo Posts: 832
    If your "perspective" is chaging all the time, perhaps you should refrain from signing contracts that state otherwise.

    If you want mindless drones in our society then that is your opinion and I respect it. I like to think the men and women in our armed forces use their intelligence.
    War is Peace
    Freedom is Slavery
    Ignorance is Strength
  • CollinCollin Posts: 4,931
    There's no such thing as an "illegal war". It makes no sense. I'm totally in agreement with this guy that this is an immoral war, but illegal? Sorry, that just doesn't work.

    Actually, there is see the post above made by gue_barium.
    THANK YOU, LOSTDAWG!


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  • Rushlimbo wrote:
    If you want mindless drones in our society then that is your opinion and I respect it. I like to think the men and women in our armed forces use their intelligence.

    Hehe...nice.

    I'm advocating a position of "think before you sign". Can you help me understand how that makes me a proponent of "mindless drones"?
  • Collin wrote:
    Actually, there is see the post above made by gue_barium.

    gue posted something from the UN Charter. Can you point me to a UN ruling that declares this war "illegal"?
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    There's no such thing as an "illegal war". It makes no sense. I'm totally in agreement with this guy that this is an immoral war, but illegal? Sorry, that just doesn't work.

    Regardless, this guy signed away his right to have moral qualms about things. If he wants to desert, so be it and I applaud his decision. But he must own up to his obligations.

    I think he is owning up to his obligations as an American soldier. As is the Watada fellow. They are both fighting the battle, just in a different way.

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  • gue_barium wrote:
    I think he is owning up to his obligations as an American soldier. As is the Wataba fellow. They are both fighting the battle, just in a different way.

    Yep...fighting the battle of being "anti-war" by joining the military. Real heroes :rolleyes:

    It's pretty easy to be "anti-war" when someone is asking you to fight one. Apparently it's a little harder when someone's offering you free college tuition and other giveaways.
  • the guy can do whatever the hell he wants to... I'm sure he's looking for permission or approval from anyone...
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

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  • chopitdownchopitdown Posts: 2,222
    gue_barium wrote:
    It isn't an opinion, it is a fact. Also, even though I was in the Armed Forces, I certainly wasn't "owned" by the government.

    "The UN Charter outlines two grounds on which you can lawfully engage in armed conflict – one is article 42 of the charter which says that you act together with other states once that action has been explicitly authorized by the United Nations Security Council. That didn't happen in the case of Iraq.

    The other provision is article 51 of the UN Charter, which is about self defence. That didn't apply in the case of Iraq either."

    does the UN law supercede US law? Can someone from the UN come to the US and prosecute this "illegal" war?
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Yep...fighting the battle of being "anti-war" by joining the military. Real heroes :rolleyes:

    It's pretty easy to be "anti-war" when someone is asking you to fight one. Apparently it's a little harder when someone's offering you free college tuition and other giveaways.

    They aren't "anti-war". This isn't about that and you know it. They both saw active duty.

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  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    chopitdown wrote:
    does the UN law supercede US law? Can someone from the UN come to the US and prosecute this "illegal" war?

    Here's a good read:

    Could Bush be Prosecuted for War Crimes?

    http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Bush_Gang/Bush_War_Criminal%3F.html

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  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Yep...fighting the battle of being "anti-war" by joining the military. Real heroes :rolleyes:

    It's pretty easy to be "anti-war" when someone is asking you to fight one. Apparently it's a little harder when someone's offering you free college tuition and other giveaways.

    You yourself say this is an immoral war. Wtf? Here's a couple of guys putting it all on the line that think the same thing.

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    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
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