I Don't Understand the Mentality of Movin Train Posters re: Pope comments
rationalthought
Posts: 15
Israel has been facing this same exact situation for years. Whenever the Palestinians don't get exactly what they want, they riot. They kidnap. They murder. They make threats of Death to Israel, Death to Jews. And, this board has defended their actions for years.
Now, that they have directed their aggression at the Pope (it was only a matter of time before Christianity got involved), the Board takes the opposite view that they are acting ridiculously.
Now, that they have directed their aggression at the Pope (it was only a matter of time before Christianity got involved), the Board takes the opposite view that they are acting ridiculously.
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i know the pope is old and that sorta gives off a...nice hopeless... he must be decent image... but lets still not forget the catholic past.... he sure hasn't..
this is not in defense of comments to kill him. i dont believe in extremist ideals. i promote peace
but the facts are there...these pope's may wear white... but their skin has been washed from red.
I don't know ... A lot of the pro-Palestine people are also the ones jumping in and blaming the West for these people's actions. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like the apologists are at least being consistent.
Accepting responsibity and apologist are two different things.. Its not until you accept your portion of responsibility in a conflict that resolution can begin.
Agreed ... But I believe that I have seen people do both of these things. I also agree with your use of the term "portion".
And what exactly is it that Palestinians want? Do you mean that it is wrong of them to riot, kidnap, and murder when confronted with a far more powerful aggressive occupying army which kidnaps and murders them at will?
I don't understand your mentality in linking the Palestinian conflict and the current mess of the month together....I fail to see the connection...
Yes. It is wrong. Murdering and being a suicide bomber is wrong. Having a government which does not accept Israel's right to exist is wrong.
False representation of the Israel.
Really? So Israel doesn't, and has never, kidnapped and murdered Palestinians, along with stealing their land and bulldozing their homes?? Interesting. Would you care to elaborate?
And would you say that it is also wrong for Israel to deny Palestines right to exist?
...
I also feel that if you are going to get on 'celebrities' who express their political opinions, it should also hold true for the Pope... he's a fucking 'celebrity', too. Shouldn't he just shut the fuck up and just Pope?
Hail, Hail!!!
Popein' ain't easy...:D
It's hard out here for a Pope?
Hail, Hail!!!
Probably, yeah ... Although I think this has become more of a free speech issue. Brad Pitt can beak off all he wants, why not the Pope?
That's what I say. Just because a person's vocation isn't one of politics, it doesn't mean they shouldn't have an opinion on politics, right? If the other case were true, then none of us should have an opinion on anything... including music or movies, unless were were musicians or actors. And there are a lot of shitty movies and horrible music being made out there that we really need to voice up against.
Hail, Hail!!!
The issue is the same, albeit not identical. The Palestinians riot when they do not get their exact way, rather than engage in normal political dialogue. As do these extremists when they do not get their exact way.
The intifada did not start in response to Israel killing anyone. Let us remember that the intifada began when Ariel Sharon visited the Temple Mount, a holy place in Israel for both Jews and Muslims. Palestinians took such umbrage to this visit that they began bombing pizzerias and busses. This radical intolerance has been stewing in the Palestinian and radical Muslim population for years. But, the world is only now realizing it.
After the pope mobile. Maybe he can have a show, Pope My Ride.
And I suppose you believe that the L.A riots had nothing to do with years of black oppression, and disadvantage, and a history of police brutailty towards them? It simply began solely and exclusively as a direct result of the beating of a single black man - Rodney King, right?
What about Popes on ropes?
Because these instances aren't necessarily comparable, unless you hold a specific view about the middle eastern conflict?
Your asessment of the palestinians is very much arguable, and I will add to it my own questionmark behind which palestinians you refer to. The leadership of both sides have a lot of skeletons in their respective closets, and switch back and forth between who prolongs the conflict this time.
In any case, I do not see the parallell to another "moral outrage" by some muslim groups based on some unfortunate comments made by the pope. By the way, "the muslim world" is not in anoutrage about this, there are groups and some demonstrations that protest and demand an apology. And some fringe wackos calling for his death.
Actually, the common denominator between these instances is how a small group ruin it for everyone else.
To sum up, your presentation of Israel-Palestine conflict is very biased, and a lot of the people on here don't see it that way. Neither do I, unless you direct just as much criticism towards the other side as well. And most on here think the pope fumbled his statements, but it's pretty harsh to demand his death for that. (which is called for by some extremist groups and imams)
It really ain't that hard to understand.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
since when has Israel kidnapped anyone? do you mean imprisioning militants and would be suicide bombers?
no
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=107&ItemID=10838
'Israel has been kidnapping Lebanese for years, a hefty chunk of the 10,000 or so rotting in horrifying Israeli prisons, like the secret Facility 1391 in central Israel, worse than Camp X-Ray in Guantanamo. On June 25 Corporal Gilad Shalit was kidnapped in Gaza, prompting an escalation in Israel's already barbaric assaults on the civilian population there. Since June 25, says the Palestinian Ministry of Detainees, Israel has kidnapped over 35 Palestinian Parliament Members and 10 cabinet Ministers. It was certainly hard to find in any US paper or newscast any reference to the fact that one day before, on 24 June, Israeli forces kidnapped two civilians in Gaza, a doctor and his brother, and sent them off to some Israeli dungeon. As Noam Chomsky remarked to an interviewer from al-Ahram, "The timing alone reveals with vivid clarity that the show of outrage over the capture of Israeli soldiers is cynical fraud, and undermines any shreds of moral legitimacy for the ensuing actions."
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
maybe it was b/c sharon 'visited' the temple mount w/ over a thousand armed men during a holy day in islam?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Hey, what's the big deal? In the Middle East, holy days in Islam have become a reason to step up violent attacks. Par for the course ...
I never knew that this board had a common stance on anything.... this would be good news!!! can't we just agree that they're all a bunch of madmen for once?! (israel, palestinians, the pope, bush, iran president, the UN... basically the whole world...)
Your bias runs clear. Sharon was accompanied by police, because when Israel alerted Palestinian authorities in advance to the visit, Sharon was threatened with all sorts of violence.
Second, I never have before heard that he visited during some Islamic holy day. Not that it would excuse the violent reaction, but provide support for your claim.
and your bias shows, too...i read he showed up w/ the armed men b/c he was investigating reports of vandalism...this was right after the peace talks fell apart, too, and sharon was running for pm on a more hard line stance...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Intifada#Sharon_visits_the_Temple_Mount
Graham Usher, Palestine correspondent for The Economist and Middle East International and the author of Dispatches From Palestine: The Rise and Fall of the Oslo Peace Process (Pluto), all point out, the "al-Aqsa intifada,: started when Barak introduced massive and intimidating police and military presence the day following Sharon's visit, the day of prayers.
Sharon visits the Temple Mount
On September 28, the Israeli opposition leader Ariel Sharon, with a Likud party delegation, and surrounded by hundreds of Israeli riot police, visited the mosque compound of the Temple Mount/Har HaBayit/Al-Haram Al-Sharif in the Old City of Jerusalem. The mosque compound is the first Qibla of Muslims and the third holiest site in Islam. It also contains the area for the most holy site in Judaism. The pretext for Sharon's visit of the mosque compound was to check complaints by Israeli archeologists that Muslim religious authorities had vandalized archeological remains beneath the surface of the mount during the conversion of the presumed Solomon's Stables area into a mosque.
Sharon's impending visit was officially announced and approved in advance with many Palestinian officials including Arafat himself, though prior to it some people on both sides protested, because of his controversial political stance. His visit was condemned by the Palestinians as a provocation and an incursion, as were his armed bodyguards that arrived on the scene with him in claims that Palestinian protesters threatened his life. Critics claim that Sharon knew that the visit would trigger violence, and that the purpose of his visit was political; Sharon won the February 2001 elections in a landslide
The "October Uprising"
The October 2000 uprising is the name for the uprising by Israeli Arabs (Which is consideed to be the beginning of the Alaqsa Intifada) in October, 2000. When Ariel Sharon ascended the third holliest place in Islam. Palestinians saw Sharon's visit as an assault on the Al-Aqsa Mosque. For this reason, the whole conflict is known as the Al-Aqsa Intifada.
On September 29, 2000, the day after Sharon's visit, following Friday prayers, large uprising broke out around Old Jerusalem during which several Palestinian demonstrators were shot dead. Already in the same day, the September 29, 2000, demonstrations broke out in the West Bank. In the days that followed, demonstrations erupted all over the West Bank and Gaza. The same day, in the West Bank city of Qalqilyah, a Palestinian police officer working with Israeli police on a joint patrol opened fire and killed his Israeli counterpart Supt. Yosef Tabeja[14], an Israel Border Police officer.
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
so you honestly see nothing wrong w/ sending in a thousand men dressed in riot gear during a day of prayers at the 3rd holiest site in their religion?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way