"health" of the mother

Brain of J.Lo

Not a great moment for Sen. McCain. I felt my blood pressure rise. (...much like it did when I was pregnant and teetering on the brink of a serious "health" problem that would have been life-threatening! lol)

Thoughts?

_

McCain wrote:

Just again, the example of the eloquence of Sen. Obama. He's health for the mother. You know, that's been stretched by the pro-abortion movement in America to mean almost anything.

That's the extreme pro-abortion position, quote, "health." But, look, Cindy and I are adoptive parents. We know what a treasure and joy it is to have an adopted child in our lives. We'll do everything we can to improve adoption in this country.

Uh... huh?


Wanting to protect the health of the mother... whoa... how extremely pro-abortion! :rolleyes:

And what's that got to do with him being an adoptive parent? Did the adoption of his children protect the health of all mothers or something?

jimed14

First ... it makes me ill when people state folks that are pro-choice are
"pro-abortion" ... I would never want anyone I was with that was pregnant to have an abortion ... but ... I fully support leaving the choice to the woman, and whomever she needs to consult ... to say I am "pro abortion" because I support the right for a woman to choose is such a mischaracterization of my view. McCain used that "pro abortion" term so many times tonight, it aggravated me.

McCain's protecitng the health of the mother comment ... probably lost him many undecided independent women voters ... sounded very callous ...

By the way, Cindy McCain does NOT support the overturning of Roe v Wade and she is ok with abortions in the case of rape and incest ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE69ajamamo&feature=related

JSBE

"Just again, the example of the eloquence of Sen. Obama. He's health for the mother. You know, that's been stretched by the pro-abortion movement in America to mean almost anything."

um. um. um. honestly, i don't know what to say.

*** edit - double post on the exact quote by mccain. i didn't realize that scb posted it, although having it again won't hurt ***

Heineken Helen

jimed14 wrote:

First ... it makes me ill when people state folks that are pro-choice are
"pro-abortion" ... I would never want anyone I was with that was pregnant to have an abortion ... but ... I fully support leaving the choice to the woman, and whomever she needs to consult ... to say I am "pro abortion" because I support the right for a woman to choose is such a mischaracterization of my view. McCain used that "pro abortion" term so many times tonight, it aggravated me.

Well said... and I agree... I'm 100% pro choice but I would not want ANYONE to have to go through an abortion! Saying 'pro abortion' makes it sound like you love abortion and think everyone should have one :rolleyes:

know1

jimed14 wrote:

First ... it makes me ill when people state folks that are pro-choice are
"pro-abortion" ... I would never want anyone I was with that was pregnant to have an abortion ... but ... I fully support leaving the choice to the woman, and whomever she needs to consult ... to say I am "pro abortion" because I support the right for a woman to choose is such a mischaracterization of my view. McCain used that "pro abortion" term so many times tonight, it aggravated me.

You gotta admit that "Pro-Choice" isn't exactly very accurate either.

How about "Pro-Legal-Abortion"?

jked3

McCain also said several times that "these women are facing a difficult decision". Well John, if abortion is immoral, should be illegal and unavailable, what decision are these women facing? Women will then have no choice.

To say that pro-choice = pro-abortion is so disingenuous.

Heineken Helen

know1 wrote:

You gotta admit that "Pro-Choice" isn't exactly very accurate either.

How about "Pro-Legal-Abortion"?

Nope... cos I'm still not PRO legal abortion... cos it's still not something I LIKE. I'm PRO people having the choice to decide either way... therefore pro choice. But it's probably not something I would ever CHOOSE to do... but I can't say how I would choose or feel in that situation.

cincybearcat

JSBE wrote:

"Just again, the example of the eloquence of Sen. Obama. He's health for the mother. You know, that's been stretched by the pro-abortion movement in America to mean almost anything."

um. um. um. honestly, i don't know what to say.

*** edit - double post on the exact quote by mccain. i didn't realize that scb posted it, although having it again won't hurt ***

I'm not really sure the big deal with this line. It really does depend on what people determine to equal health...for example, if keeping the baby is going to cause the mother to get heartburn ...that negatively impacts her health...but is it enough to justify a late-term abortion? Anyhow, I think people look at this issue purely emotional and are unable or unwilling to even try and see what the other side is saying.

Brain of J.Lo

cincybearcat wrote:

I'm not really sure the big deal with this line. It really does depend on what people determine to equal health...for example, if keeping the baby is going to cause the mother to get heartburn ...that negatively impacts her health...but is it enough to justify a late-term abortion? Anyhow, I think people look at this issue purely emotional and are unable or unwilling to even try and see what the other side is saying.

It's absurd to imply that pro-choice advocates are trying to protect a mother's right to abort because of heartburn, or any other insignificant health issue. The fact is, there is a LOT of gray area between a healthy pregnancy and a pregnancy that results in death. There are complications that can severely impact a woman's long-term health that don't result in immediate death.

edited just to add: I don't believe that anyone but the mother in question has the right to determine whether or not her health concern is valid "enough".

Brain of J.Lo

Heineken Helen wrote:

Nope... cos I'm still not PRO legal abortion... cos it's still not something I LIKE. I'm PRO people having the choice to decide either way... therefore pro choice. But it's probably not something I would ever CHOOSE to do... but I can't say how I would choose or feel in that situation.

I agree. I support the fact that the CHOICE belongs to the woman. Therefore, I'm pro-choice. I'm not pro-abortion, nor am I pro-legal-abortion, because I do not promote abortion, legal or otherwise. I support the choice.

PJ_Saluki

So, if "pro-choice" equals "pro-abortion," does "pro-life" equal "anti-choice"?

"McCain-Palin -- The anti-choice candidates!"

Has a nice ring to it, no?

cincybearcat

Brain of J.Lo wrote:

It's absurd to imply that pro-choice advocates are trying to protect a mother's right to abort because of heartburn, or any other insignificant health issue. The fact is, there is a LOT of gray area between a healthy pregnancy and a pregnancy that results in death. There are complications that can severely impact a woman's long-term health that don't result in immediate death.

edited just to add: I don't believe that anyone but the mother in question has the right to determine whether or not her health concern is valid "enough".

Well, thanks for taking my hearburn item so literally...try looking at the overall message.

cincybearcat

Brain of J.Lo wrote:

I agree. I support the fact that the CHOICE belongs to the woman. Therefore, I'm pro-choice. I'm not pro-abortion, nor am I pro-legal-abortion, because I do not promote abortion, legal or otherwise. I support the choice.

How is being pro-choice not being for keeping abortion legal...thus pro-legal abortion?

Seriously, let's just stop looking at these ridiculous labels anyhow.

Brain of J.Lo

cincybearcat wrote:

try looking at the overall message.

I did, that's why I said "or any other insignificant health problem", and that's why I added the last sentence.

Brain of J.Lo

cincybearcat wrote:

How is being pro-choice not being for keeping abortion legal...thus pro-legal abortion?

I explained that I feel a term like "pro-legal abortion" still sends the message that abortion is being encouraged, when the choice is what is being promoted and supported.

I think the labels are worth examining, simply because terms like "pro-abortion" and "pro-choice" definitely have two different connotations.

NMyTree

How about just Pro-Options. Or An Advocate Of Having Options Available.


I know, the second one is too long and doesn't roll off the tounge quite so well, when arguing:D

know1

Brain of J.Lo wrote:

I explained that I feel a term like "pro-legal abortion" still sends the message that abortion is being encouraged, when the choice is what is being promoted and supported.

Is that what helps you sleep at night? Why are you so scared of being labeled with the word abortion?

Heineken Helen

know1 wrote:

Is that what helps you sleep at night? Why are you so scared of being labeled with the word abortion?

THere's no fear... but it's definitely used by some as propaganda. Pro-choice IS a term related to abortion.

Flannel Shirt

NMyTree wrote:

How about just Pro-Options. Or An Advocate Of Having Options Available.


I know, the second one is too long and doesn't roll off the tounge quite so well, when arguing:D

Pro Options. Contact your local printer and start having them printed. I'd slap it on my car.

Options Advocate.

Brain of J.Lo

know1 wrote:

Is that what helps you sleep at night? Why are you so scared of being labeled with the word abortion?

lol!

I have no trouble sleeping at night; I just don't believe abortion is murder. I firmly believe that the rights and well-being of the mother trump the rights of the potential life inside of her. And I say this from the perspective of a mother who would happily give her life to save her 2 year old child, if it were somehow necessary.

I just don't think it's *accurate* to say that pro-choice = pro-abortion, for the reasons I've already explained.

Brain of J.Lo

Heineken Helen wrote:

THere's no fear... but it's definitely used by some as propaganda. Pro-choice IS a term related to abortion.

Absolutely. It's not fear, it's an objection to a term that is used to stoke anger.

Brain of J.Lo

NMyTree wrote:

How about just Pro-Options. Or An Advocate Of Having Options Available.


I know, the second one is too long and doesn't roll off the tounge quite so well, when arguing:D

Isn't that just the same as pro-choice, anyway?

iamica

It's all just buzz labels to generate sympathy for a particular opinion. People who are in favor of abortion being legal call themselves "pro choice", and the opposition "anti choice". People against abortion being legal call themselves "pro life" and label the opposition "pro abortion". It's all very calculated to demonize the opposition.
I think we should all be working together to reduce the number of unintended pregnancies, and by doing so, reducing abortions.

know1

Brain of J.Lo wrote:

lol!

I have no trouble sleeping at night; I just don't believe abortion is murder. I firmly believe that the rights and well-being of the mother trump the rights of the potential life inside of her. And I say this from the perspective of a mother who would happily give her life to save her 2 year old child, if it were somehow necessary.

I just don't think it's *accurate* to say that pro-choice = pro-abortion, for the reasons I've already explained.

Well I believe the proper perspective is for a doctor to save as much life as he/she can - mother, baby, etc.

I think it's most accurate to say Pro-Legal-Abortion.

But I'll continue to just use Pro-Abortion since it's interesting to see how uncomfortable that makes people.

Heineken Helen

know1 wrote:

Well I believe the proper perspective is for a doctor to save as much life as he/she can - mother, baby, etc.

I think it's most accurate to say Pro-Legal-Abortion.

But I'll continue to just use Pro-Abortion since it's interesting to see how uncomfortable that makes people.

well I'll feel free to call you anti-choice then so

know1

Heineken Helen wrote:

well I'll feel free to call you anti-choice then so

Fine by me. I'm really anti-abortion, though. Pro-Life just doesn't quite go far enough for me.

Brain of J.Lo

know1 wrote:

But I'll continue to just use Pro-Abortion since it's interesting to see how uncomfortable that makes people.

Well, if it makes you happy, you can call me "pro-baby-killin'". It's just the same, and it's just as inaccurate.

Heineken Helen

Brain of J.Lo wrote:

Well, if it makes you happy, you can call me "pro-baby-killin'". It's just the same, and it's just as inaccurate.

I'll second that one.

so know1 if you support refusing an abortion where the mothers life is in danger, do you mind if I call you anti-life?

saveuplife

Brain of J.Lo wrote:

I agree. I support the fact that the CHOICE belongs to the woman. Therefore, I'm pro-choice. I'm not pro-abortion, nor am I pro-legal-abortion, because I do not promote abortion, legal or otherwise. I support the choice.

You aren't making any sense. You are for abortion being legal. Hence, people have more of an ability to decide to abort because it's not against the law. Just to clarify though, people can still CHOOSE to abort even if it's against the law.

You ARE pro-legalized abortion. Come on. Trying to get out of that is not helping your cause.

saveuplife

By the way, why are those of you who don't like the title pro-legalized abortion, scared of it? Why do you not want more abortions as long as they are safe for the mom? If your not killing anything you are just removing cells, right? Why do you want less abortions? Why are you scared to say you are for pro-legalized abortion when that is clearly what you are for.

It just doesn't make sense to me. IMHO the tide on this issue is turning when people on the one side are starting to admit that they don't condone abortion even when the mom's life isn't threatened at all by the procedure.

You are starting to point out that there is something intrinsically wrong with it. You're not to point of saying it's life, but you certainly are getting closer.