There ain't gonna be any middle anymore...

Abuskedti

know1 wrote:

The gap is not the problem. The number of people living in poverty is the problem. We need to focus on that and not on the other end.

"The other end" is the cause. They make the laws, they impose their will, they create the maze, they build the walls, they make the rules, they build and nurture the gap - it is their best interest to do so, and our infatuation with their freedom empowers them.

many have said that racism come from ignorance.. that the racist doesn't really see himself as bad or a racist - but its a result of their upbringing, and some education - opportunity for enlightenment - and they can change

the very same things holds true for the poor. They don't know that they are being duped, they don't understand that their habits are their barrier - they need a little education and opportunity for enlightenment and they can change..

but people like you like to call their ignorance - lazy and lay the blame on them that they don't understand the social maze created by those in power - and the fact that the maze is complex enough to change to beat down those that beging to recover.

The fact is, "the other end" will suffer at better distribution of resources - and increases numbers capable of competing.

The poor are oppressed and it is a deliberate, though sub conscious (for the most part) punishment imposed upon those that are down - by the middle and upper class.

The poor are the Indians, the Jews, the slaves.. and we are the oppressors.

ryan198

Abuskedti wrote:

"The other end" is the cause. They make the laws, they impose their will, they create the maze, they build the walls, they make the rules, they build and nurture the gap - it is their best interest to do so, and our infatuation with their freedom empowers them.

many have said that racism come from ignorance.. that the racist doesn't really see himself as bad or a racist - but its a result of their upbringing, and some education - opportunity for enlightenment - and they can change

the very same things holds true for the poor. They don't know that they are being duped, they don't understand that their habits are their barrier - they need a little education and opportunity for enlightenment and they can change..

but people like you like to call their ignorance - lazy and lay the blame on them that they don't understand the social maze created by those in power - and the fact that the maze is complex enough to change to beat down those that beging to recover.

The fact is, "the other end" will suffer at better distribution of resources - and increases numbers capable of competing.

The poor are oppressed and it is a deliberate, though sub conscious (for the most part) punishment imposed upon those that are down - by the middle and upper class.

The poor are the Indians, the Jews, the slaves.. and we are the oppressors.

The key thing here is that the poor aren't stupid unthinking dupes, they do the necessary things to survive. So tell me this if you have a choice to work at Wal-Mart for 5.15/hr with no bennies, or no work, take welfare, and take care of your family at home what do you do? The crazy thing is that this laziness of the poor is so powerful that many people choose the former! Yet when they choose the later, a choice that you'd think that if conservatives who were for family values would support, they get called lazy!?!? How, then do you want to help those in poeverty (working or not) take care of their families?

know1

I didn't call anyone lazy in this forum. I'm saying that focusing on the gap, or unfairly taking from the rich isn't the problem or the answer.

ryan198

know1 wrote:

I didn't call anyone lazy in this forum. I'm saying that focusing on the gap, or unfairly taking from the rich isn't the problem or the answer.

how can you not say that right now in this world the rich are unfairly taking from the poor?

know1

ryan198 wrote:

how can you not say that right now in this world the rich are unfairly taking from the poor?

In some cases, I'm sure they are, but you can't just make a blanket statement like that.

Also, "unfairly" is highly subjective and also a matter of opinion and perspective.

Furthermore, you, I and everyone else on this board are very much included in that rich class when you look at it in terms of the world. Does that mean you and I are unfairly taking from the poor?

Here's a different way of looking at the subjectiveness of "unfair": How can you say that the government in the U.S. is not taking unfairly from the rich. After all, taxing someone at a higher rate than someone else is unfair, no?

sonicreducer

know1 wrote:

Here's a different way of looking at the subjectiveness of "unfair": How can you say that the government in the U.S. is not taking unfairly from the rich. After all, taxing someone at a higher rate than someone else is unfair, no?

well, according to aaron russo and many other researchers none of us should have to pay an income tax.

ryan198

i don't necessarily think that taxing higher is unfair...when all the rules of society are set up to benefit the rich then their should be some reparations.

Abuskedti

ryan198 wrote:

The key thing here is that the poor aren't stupid unthinking dupes, they do the necessary things to survive. So tell me this if you have a choice to work at Wal-Mart for 5.15/hr with no bennies, or no work, take welfare, and take care of your family at home what do you do? The crazy thing is that this laziness of the poor is so powerful that many people choose the former! Yet when they choose the later, a choice that you'd think that if conservatives who were for family values would support, they get called lazy!?!? How, then do you want to help those in poeverty (working or not) take care of their families?

Well, its not as simple as a choice. Many people don't know how to "fit in" a working enviornment... and don't understand how to manage their money.. and how to manage a life... they fail and believe themselves incapable. When I say they need education - for the most part that consists of some mentoring - some explaing of how things work - and how people exist toghether in a workplace and what is necessary to survive on $5.25 per hour and how to improve and advance.. That is a skill - and requires quite a bit of knowledge - and those skills are needed every step of the way.. without that mentoring and understanding - they fail and fall deeper.

We need to educate the poor - for free - and feed them - teach them the importance of self reliance and the benefits and the tools needed to get there. It wouldn't be all that expensive or hard... it can easily be part of the school system - but people need to reach out to them - but instead the teachers and councelors - sit back and blame and call them lazy and fill their squares to keep their own jobs.. there in no incentives for educators to reach out and help these communities - its easier to demonize them, call them names, and leave them in the place we so inacurately tell ourselves they created - when it those that are sliding along in the mainstream that created it

ryan198

Abuskedti wrote:

Well, its not as simple as a choice. Many people don't know how to "fit in" a working enviornment... and don't understand how to manage their money.. and how to manage a life... they fail and believe themselves incapable. When I say they need education - for the most part that consists of some mentoring - some explaing of how things work - and how people exist toghether in a workplace and what is necessary to survive on $5.25 per hour and how to improve and advance.. That is a skill - and requires quite a bit of knowledge - and those skills are needed every step of the way.. without that mentoring and understanding - they fail and fall deeper.

We need to educate the poor - for free - and feed them - teach them the importance of self reliance and the benefits and the tools needed to get there. It wouldn't be all that expensive or hard... it can easily be part of the school system - but people need to reach out to them - but instead the teachers and councelors - sit back and blame and call them lazy and fill their squares to keep their own jobs.. there in no incentives for educators to reach out and help these communities - its easier to demonize them, call them names, and leave them in the place we so inacurately tell ourselves they created - when it those that are sliding along in the mainstream that created it

point taken...as of now there is incentive for teachers...it's called No Child Left Behind, and the incentive is to teach to the Standardized Tests which have always been shown to benefit/reify the needs, and knowledge sets of white upper-middle class children. Further by teaching to the tests it serves to stifle any critical language a student could possible learn in school in return for positivist assumptions about Truth (with a capital t) rather than many truths or angles with which to understand a situation.

know1

ryan198 wrote:

i don't necessarily think that taxing higher is unfair...when all the rules of society are set up to benefit the rich then their should be some reparations.

How are "all the rules of society" set up to benefit the rich?

know1

sonicreducer wrote:

well, according to aaron russo and many other researchers none of us should have to pay an income tax.

I don't think we should either. I think we should pay consumption taxes instead - but just enough to pay for the basic necessities of government.

ryan198

know1 wrote:

How are "all the rules of society" set up to benefit the rich?

Ok we live in a capitalist society which at its very essence is based upon the exploitation of the labor class by the ruling class. No i am not a marxist (more a post-marxist) but his description of economics still works today. Capitalism is based on gaining profit by receiving more economic value for production than the economic value used for production. So for someone working at 7/11 for $5.15/hr+all the operating costs, that 7/11 owner must make more per/hr than (s)he is paying for it. Thus to be successful in the system of capital the rich necessarily must benefit from the poor.

Simulataneously, in contemporary America we are rapidly moving towards the privatization of everything, (electricity, health, food, school, etc.). As such those who can afford more receive better stuff, and therefore have a much better standard of living.

So, for example, here in Baltimore if I were born into an upper-class family living in the suburbs, I would have no worries about paying my 75% higher BGE bill, maintaining my rapidly rising Blue Cross/Blue Shield expenses, purchasing and eating healthy food, and going to Friends, or Notre Dame or whatever getting the best education money can buy. Moreover by going to these schools, eating healthier, etc. I would be able to live longer, get into Harvard, Yale, Duke, etc. and get an upper-class education which is moving towards a state whereby my parents are actually consuming the diploma. In other words, I don't necessarily have to work to get the C b/c mom and dad paid Yale (W, John Kerry) enough money so that I don't have to worry about it. Then with my upper-class education I can chose whatever I want to do to with my life.

Conversely, if I were born into a poor, inner-city family which is on welfare, cannot afford electricity so that it's only possible to study from the textbooks from the 1950's that my public school can't afford to update during the daytime -the only problem with that is that I can't study during that time b/c I'm working at McDonald's to help ends meet. I can only afford the time (b/c there are few inner-city grocery stores) and money (wholefoods is fucking expensive), to eat what's on the McDonald's menu, and can't afford the police protection, health care, and/or travel expenses to go to that cheap community college which has 1/100th the resources (including great teachers) that I could get at the upper class colleges...how can I move up? How can I get out of poverty?

On top of all that being poor and from an urban setting in all probability makes me an ethinic minority that the police target for petty theft, meanwhile the stupid rich white kid is running our country, telling me about family values, killing my friends and family members in Iraq b/c we were told that was the only way to a college education, while lining his and his buddies pockets with oil money.

Now tell me how the rules of society don't benefit the rich.

know1

ryan198 wrote:

Ok we live in a capitalist society which at its very essence is based upon the exploitation of the labor class by the ruling class. No i am not a marxist (more a post-marxist) but his description of economics still works today. Capitalism is based on gaining profit by receiving more economic value for production than the economic value used for production. So for someone working at 7/11 for $5.15/hr+all the operating costs, that 7/11 owner must make more per/hr than (s)he is paying for it. Thus to be successful in the system of capital the rich necessarily must benefit from the poor.

Simulataneously, in contemporary America we are rapidly moving towards the privatization of everything, (electricity, health, food, school, etc.). As such those who can afford more receive better stuff, and therefore have a much better standard of living.

So, for example, here in Baltimore if I were born into an upper-class family living in the suburbs, I would have no worries about paying my 75% higher BGE bill, maintaining my rapidly rising Blue Cross/Blue Shield expenses, purchasing and eating healthy food, and going to Friends, or Notre Dame or whatever getting the best education money can buy. Moreover by going to these schools, eating healthier, etc. I would be able to live longer, get into Harvard, Yale, Duke, etc. and get an upper-class education which is moving towards a state whereby my parents are actually consuming the diploma. In other words, I don't necessarily have to work to get the C b/c mom and dad paid Yale (W, John Kerry) enough money so that I don't have to worry about it. Then with my upper-class education I can chose whatever I want to do to with my life.

Conversely, if I were born into a poor, inner-city family which is on welfare, cannot afford electricity so that it's only possible to study from the textbooks from the 1950's that my public school can't afford to update during the daytime -the only problem with that is that I can't study during that time b/c I'm working at McDonald's to help ends meet. I can only afford the time (b/c there are few inner-city grocery stores) and money (wholefoods is fucking expensive), to eat what's on the McDonald's menu, and can't afford the police protection, health care, and/or travel expenses to go to that cheap community college which has 1/100th the resources (including great teachers) that I could get at the upper class colleges...how can I move up? How can I get out of poverty?

On top of all that being poor and from an urban setting in all probability makes me an ethinic minority that the police target for petty theft, meanwhile the stupid rich white kid is running our country, telling me about family values, killing my friends and family members in Iraq b/c we were told that was the only way to a college education, while lining his and his buddies pockets with oil money.

Now tell me how the rules of society don't benefit the rich.

I think you rambled all across the board there and brought in many things that have nothing to do with all the rules of society benefitting the rich. The rules are the same, the rich have a competitive advantage, but the rules are the same. Well, actually, if you count taxes, the rules actually go more against the rich than the poor.

I believe capitalism and privatization of things LOWERS the prices for all. That's the whole point of it. I'm not sure where you get that privatization raises costs. Health insurance and healthcare costs are a great example of how NOT privatizing things has driven the cost up due to no competition. If we are moving toward privatization, that should help the lower class.

If businesses were set up so that the owners made less money than they paid their employees, how would they function.

Isn't it easier for minorities and lower class people to be accepted into schools and receive scholarships and financial assistance? There's another advantage for you.

The fact is, there is incentive and opportunity for all to make progress and improve their situation. It's when you throw up your hands, and complain that it's all not fair and that you weren't told or taught or taken by the hand and lead to what you needed to improve that you have no chance.

ryan198

in no case ever has the privatization of anything worked to cheapen the cost...look at electricity especially in B'more, LA, etc.

BrinkofForever

know1 wrote:

I believe capitalism and privatization of things LOWERS the prices for all. That's the whole point of it. I'm not sure where you get that privatization raises costs. Health insurance and healthcare costs are a great example of how NOT privatizing things has driven the cost up due to no competition. If we are moving toward privatization, that should help the lower class.

Yeah. Um. Health Insurance would NOT be a good example there. Most people are painfully aware that premiums are rising way above the inflation rate in this country right now. What you fail to acknowlege is that when privatization spurs competition it does lower costs overall, however, when deregulation allows for unchecked consolidation within an industry (such as healthcare), costs increase because of lack of competition. Healthcare, Banking and the Oil Industry are great examples of this... so are companies such as Ticketmaster and Clearchannel.

boxwine_in_hell

The real problem I believe is with perception. For some reason in the last 10-20 years, the terms Liberal and Consevative have become extremely pejorative. Shades of gray have been eliminated from our political scene. It's human nature I guess. I happen to lean more toward what most would consider the values of the Democratic party and when I hear the word "Conservative" my hackles immediately and quite irrationally raise. My mind is flooded with the image of a Pro Life, bible thumping, homophobic, NRA member that listens to Rush Limbaugh on his lunch break and comes home to dinner with Fox News playing in the background. Stereotypes of these nature are every bit as dangerous as racial stereotypes and all of us as human beings are obligated to think beyond the knee jerk reaction to each other and focus on the good of our government and our society. Unfortunately the number of altruistic politicians are about as prevalent as the number of altruistic CEO's. Money and power are the real root of the problems my friends and it is a perversion that does not choose political party lines or idealogies. Money and power trump all. (no pun intended toward the Donald!) This is why promotion of grassroot thought and action by websites like this and groups of people like PJ fans are so important. People only can be shit on for so long before they realize it isn't the rain. And when that realization finally becomes collective....look the hell out....it will be explosive.