Hard truths and solutions regarding the creation & maintenance of the state of Israel
kenny olav
Posts: 3,319
I recently came about this quote by Washington Post columnist, Richard Cohen:
"The greatest mistake Israel could make at the moment is to forget that Israel itself is a mistake. It is an honest mistake, a well-intentioned mistake, a mistake for which no one is culpable, but the idea of creating a nation of European Jews in an area of Arab Muslims (and some Christians) has produced a century of warfare and terrorism of the sort we are seeing now."
Its an unusual statement, at least by a Jewish person writing for a widely read American newspaper, and I wonder what his solution is to correct this "mistake"?
Before I get to what I think the possible solutions are, I think Richard Cohen's use of the word "mistake" is not completely accurate. I would not, after all, say that the driving the inhabitants of North America into reservations in the desert was a "mistake" made by Europeans. It was surely a deliberate conquest. Admittedly, the conquest of Palestine by Israel (and allies, namely Britain and America) is more complicated because the Kingdom of Israel did exist in ancient times, although Canaan and Philistia were more ancient.
The creation of the state of Israel was not a delilberate conquest you say? How then do you refute what Israeli leaders have had to say?
The brutal honesty may shock you:
"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.
"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.
"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.
"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.
"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
"If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel."
-- David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth's Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).
David Ben Gurion
Prime Minister of Israel
1949 - 1954,
1955 - 1963
"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.
"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.
"Any one who speaks in favor of bringing the Arab refugees back must also say how he expects to take the responsibility for it, if he is interested in the state of Israel. It is better that things are stated clearly and plainly: We shall not let this happen."
-- Golda Meir, 1961, in a speech to the Knesset, reported in Ner, October 1961
"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971
Golda Meir
Prime Minister of Israel
1969 - 1974
"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.
"[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat."
-- Yitzhak Rabin (a "Prince of Peace" by Clinton's standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen's remarks to the Knesset's foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)
Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel
1974 - 1977,
1992 - 1995
"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.
"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.
Menachem Begin
Prime Minister of Israel
1977 - 1983
"The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
-- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.
"The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It's that simple."
-- Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.
"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988
Yizhak Shamir
Prime Minister of Israel
1983 - 1984,
1986 - 1992
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Prime Minister of Israel
1996 - 1999
"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more"....
-- Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000
"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.
"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.
Ehud Barak
Prime Minister of Israel
1999 - 2001
"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.
"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.
"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online
Ariel Sharon
Prime Minister of Israel
2001 - 2006
Source for the above quotations
Back to the solutions...
My take is there are four directions you can go:
1. Continue using military might to demoralize any Arab opposition until they accept whatever terms Israel sees fit. An extreme example of these terms is the conquest of Greater Israel.
2. End the occupation of land taken after the 1967 war and hope that the Palestinians do not also demand the the right of return to cities and towns within Israel proper (as defined by the U.N.), thereby completing the two-state solution.
3. End the occupation of foreign land and allow Palestinians back into places where they (or their ancestors) once lived in Israel and attempt to establish and maintain a "non-ideological, secular, liberal democratic state which is officially neither Jewish nor Arab in character". This is the post-Zionist, one state solution.
4. Dismantle the state of Israel entirely and grant all of the land to the Palestinians, as advocated for by Neturei Karta and other anti-Zionist Jewish organizations.
I am certainly opposed to solution 1 and revolted by anyone who isn't likewise opposed.
Solution 2 is not completely fair but it does seem to be the most realistic. It may not, however, be realistic in the long run if Palestinians by and large never accept the loss of land. A tricky aspect of this solution is the administration of sites in Jerusalem that are holy to Jews, Christians and Muslims.
Solution 3 is the most fair, but probably unrealistic...unless we zap everyone in the middle east with magical flower power rays of rainbow light.
Solution 4 is utterly unrealistic because Israelis will not leave without a fight. Obviously, ultra-orthodox Jews will not fight them and if Arabs (and potential allies) fight them, it'll be World War 3 and there will be no habitable land for anyone to live on, except maybe in the Yukon.
My personal solution is to build a house in the Yukon.
"The greatest mistake Israel could make at the moment is to forget that Israel itself is a mistake. It is an honest mistake, a well-intentioned mistake, a mistake for which no one is culpable, but the idea of creating a nation of European Jews in an area of Arab Muslims (and some Christians) has produced a century of warfare and terrorism of the sort we are seeing now."
Its an unusual statement, at least by a Jewish person writing for a widely read American newspaper, and I wonder what his solution is to correct this "mistake"?
Before I get to what I think the possible solutions are, I think Richard Cohen's use of the word "mistake" is not completely accurate. I would not, after all, say that the driving the inhabitants of North America into reservations in the desert was a "mistake" made by Europeans. It was surely a deliberate conquest. Admittedly, the conquest of Palestine by Israel (and allies, namely Britain and America) is more complicated because the Kingdom of Israel did exist in ancient times, although Canaan and Philistia were more ancient.
The creation of the state of Israel was not a delilberate conquest you say? How then do you refute what Israeli leaders have had to say?
The brutal honesty may shock you:
"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.
"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.
"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.
"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.
"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
"If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel."
-- David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth's Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).
David Ben Gurion
Prime Minister of Israel
1949 - 1954,
1955 - 1963
"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.
"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.
"Any one who speaks in favor of bringing the Arab refugees back must also say how he expects to take the responsibility for it, if he is interested in the state of Israel. It is better that things are stated clearly and plainly: We shall not let this happen."
-- Golda Meir, 1961, in a speech to the Knesset, reported in Ner, October 1961
"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971
Golda Meir
Prime Minister of Israel
1969 - 1974
"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.
"[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat."
-- Yitzhak Rabin (a "Prince of Peace" by Clinton's standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen's remarks to the Knesset's foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)
Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel
1974 - 1977,
1992 - 1995
"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.
"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.
Menachem Begin
Prime Minister of Israel
1977 - 1983
"The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
-- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.
"The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It's that simple."
-- Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.
"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988
Yizhak Shamir
Prime Minister of Israel
1983 - 1984,
1986 - 1992
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.
Benjamin Netanyahu
Prime Minister of Israel
1996 - 1999
"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more"....
-- Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000
"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.
"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.
Ehud Barak
Prime Minister of Israel
1999 - 2001
"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.
"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.
"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online
Ariel Sharon
Prime Minister of Israel
2001 - 2006
Source for the above quotations
Back to the solutions...
My take is there are four directions you can go:
1. Continue using military might to demoralize any Arab opposition until they accept whatever terms Israel sees fit. An extreme example of these terms is the conquest of Greater Israel.
2. End the occupation of land taken after the 1967 war and hope that the Palestinians do not also demand the the right of return to cities and towns within Israel proper (as defined by the U.N.), thereby completing the two-state solution.
3. End the occupation of foreign land and allow Palestinians back into places where they (or their ancestors) once lived in Israel and attempt to establish and maintain a "non-ideological, secular, liberal democratic state which is officially neither Jewish nor Arab in character". This is the post-Zionist, one state solution.
4. Dismantle the state of Israel entirely and grant all of the land to the Palestinians, as advocated for by Neturei Karta and other anti-Zionist Jewish organizations.
I am certainly opposed to solution 1 and revolted by anyone who isn't likewise opposed.
Solution 2 is not completely fair but it does seem to be the most realistic. It may not, however, be realistic in the long run if Palestinians by and large never accept the loss of land. A tricky aspect of this solution is the administration of sites in Jerusalem that are holy to Jews, Christians and Muslims.
Solution 3 is the most fair, but probably unrealistic...unless we zap everyone in the middle east with magical flower power rays of rainbow light.
Solution 4 is utterly unrealistic because Israelis will not leave without a fight. Obviously, ultra-orthodox Jews will not fight them and if Arabs (and potential allies) fight them, it'll be World War 3 and there will be no habitable land for anyone to live on, except maybe in the Yukon.
My personal solution is to build a house in the Yukon.
Post edited by Unknown User on
0
Comments
i think your personal solution is a good idea
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
there never was a palstine
there was the land of israel, and a bunch of angree romans who changed the name to palastine, that meens if they hadnt changed the name i guise we would call the arrabs living thire israelites????
the land that the jew of the first aliyah(before ben gurion) immirated to was vastlly under populated, and the land the jews moved to they BOUGHT primerelly from absentee land ownersand real estate speculators
sinse when is buying stealing
secondlly there was always a jewish presents in the land of israel, and if the arabs had really whanted a state of thire own than when the un desided to partition isral and make israel were the jews were a majority, and palstine were the arbs were a majority, they would have exepted, but instead all the arab contrys attacked israel, in a war of annilation at her rebirth, there is a price to pay for starting a war of anialation.
lets get to the so called ocupied territories, in deffending her self against 6 arab armys in 1967 israel won the Disputed territories, not from a non existant palastine but from jorden and egypt who had illeagaly annexed these areas in thire agressive war against israel in 1948, and again the arabs started the 6 day war of 1967 with the intention to anialate israel, there is a price to pay for starting agressive wars of annialation
and as for the refugee problem let the arabs adress the issue of jewish refugees that were forsed out of thire homes in arab copntrys and had all thire property confiscated and then israel will think of the arab refugees.
taking afew quotes from leaders with out any context, doesnt proove much
the solution
the land of israel has always is now and should always beloing to the jewish people
if the arabs refuse to live in peace israel should chuck them out to the 22 other arab contrys including jorden wich is a palstinian arab state
israel should show overwhelming force so as to act as a deterence to the arabs
there should be a heavy price to pay for starting wars of anialtion, the awarness of a heavy price to pay will deter them in the future
You are either so pro Israel that you are oblivious to the truth, or you're very stupid.
That land always was Palestine. It belongs to them.
Israel are the ones responsible for the conflict. By their oppression, human rights abuse and constant demolition of the Palestinian people they are asking for it.
I think the most appropriate solution is 4. However, Jerusalem is holy to Xtians, Jews and Muslims, so it wouldn't work. Palestinians deserve their country back. End of.
At this rate, World War 3 in a week.
....awaits abusive pro-Israel post from Miller8966 or fando y lis...
who are the palatinians?
the palastinian post(the jerusalem post)
the palastine electric company(now known as the israel electric company)
the palastine philharmonic(now the israel philharmonic
the palstinian foundation fund
the joint palastine appeal
palastine echonomic cooporation ect
they were all jewish organizations untill the astablishment of the state of isrtael in 1948 and for another decade or so the term palatinian applyed almost exclusivly to the jews
"there is no such thing as palastine in history, absolutlly not" prof, phillip hitti. arab american historian,1946
" palastine was part of the provence of syria politiclly, the arabs of palastine were not indipendent in the sense of forming a seperate political entity" representative of arab higher commitee to un may 1947
"there are no differnces between jordanians palastinian syrians and lebernese ,the founding of a palastinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against israel" zuheir muhsin militery and executive of the plo, dutch news paper 1977
" the return of the jew in 1800s and early 1900 created jobs and arabs from impoverished area were drawn into the holy land for work. in 1948 so many arabs were new to the area and could notqualify for un requirementsfor refugee status that the un added a clause permitting refugee status for arabs who had been there for as little as two years" joan peters from time imamorial 1984
" the interesting thing about palastinans, is that so few arabs thought of
them selves as such before 1967 it post dates the founding of the plo. palastine had a natianal liberation movment before it had a nationality" mark steyn national post april 4 2002
the arabs start war after war in an attempt to anialate israel, the arabs diserve evey thing they get,there is a price to pay for there agresive behaviour.
Yeh, they're agressive alright. Wouldn't you be if some country of warmongers opressed you and your people for decade after decade?
Israel are a bunch of war criminals. If you can't see that, you are blind.
you are dilutianal , there is no opression for decades and decades that the arabs did not bring on them selves
the arab terror started first, your imaginary repression is simply israel reacting to the terror inflicted on her by the arabs, that makes israel a contry deffending itself and the arabs the criminals
I've never heard of the existence of these people before. Very interesting.
What came first? Hezbollah, Hamas, or the Israeli invasions?
I think you are the 'dilutional' one.
And yes, option 4 would be the best, in fact, lets drop all ideas of borders and nations the world over. Dismantle every single state, let the peoples of the planet find our own way.
Why shouldnt human beings be allowed to migrate and live wherever they want to?
What are we in the West so afraid of?
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
Viva Zapatista!
what came first , the plo folowed by the arab nations trying to wipe out israel
i think my option is much better, out withthe terrorist arabs
Well I guess the debate's over then!
pretty much!
Out with them? I wonder why they would get a bit hostile about such a sentiment?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
now question
why the fuck does hezbella, knowing full well that israel will retaliate, hide behind a heavilly populated civilian area? do explain
because they don't have a pentagon?
that's where they live?
Israel could easily take these guys out individually by hitmen. It's not like they haven't done it before. They want war and they want territory...now they have their excuse to go for it.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I came upon them about 3-4 years ago, as a group of them were speaking at pro-Palestine demontration that was being broadcast on C-Span. I was stunned to see very traditional looking Jews denouncing the state of Israel. In fact, I didn't know much about the Israel/Palestine conflict until after I saw them and that's when I began to research it more. I understand they are a very small group (somewhere between 5-10 thousand if my memory serves me right) but as you can see they are very dedicated to their cause. I would love to have a conversation with one of them.
I just found this video of Neturei Karta on You Tube...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dSHl3C9kgY&NR
Wow... is all I can say right now.
Israelis - don't suck, they're just fools mostly.
Missiles fired by Israel - 9,000.
Missiles fired by Palestinians (Hamas and Hezbollah) - 1,000.
Current hostages held by Israel - 3,000+
Current hostages held by Palestinians (Hamas and Hezbollah) - 3.
No shit, Israel sucks much worse than Hamas and Hezbollah put together.
...But neither of them are innocent.
Does anyone in the REGION of Palestine deserve to be there?
Remember "He who has not sinned may cast the first stone."?
What a stupid bullshit thing to say...
"If you haven't sinned yet - here you go. Throw stones, do it! One of us, one of us!"
*arg*
Current terror suspects and activists with ties to Arab terror organizations attempting to overthrow Israeli government detained while in Israel = 3000+
Current Israeli troops captured from their own soil after a violation of Israeli sovereignty by Hezbollah troops crossing a border that was agreed upon and taken forcibly back and held hostage = 3
Prisoner exchange demanded by Hezbollah = 100s per individual Israeli soldier (so much for a "proportional response," eh?)
Just to add a bit of perspective, but I guess the view from yet another "intolerant-Christian-Israel-supporter" may be shouted down in here. Funny how people on one side state their opinion and the other side gets derided as being delusional or closed-minded or ignorant or intolerant all the time. :rolleyes:
And I promise to check my spelling before I post.
arabs dont suck, but the ones who make up hezbala and other terror organizations are pure evil
now i dont believe for one moment that you are so foolish that you cannot tell the diffrence between a contry arresting terrorists, and terrorist kidnapping soldiers.
You make me laugh sir. It is people like you, with their utterly dumbass opinions, that contribute to how poor a state the world is in today.........
Frickin' Morons
Is your horrific spelling in every post a bit that I just don't get. It has to be.
terrorist that blow themselves up in order to kill as manny people as posible
terrorists who launch rocket after rocket at inocent civilians and then cry when the contry they are attaking retaliates, these and people who encorrage them are the reason for the poor state the world is in.
You are the fool. Talk about stupid bullshit - you compare the amount of missiles fired and "hostages" held and think that explains things? Why don't you look into how many of the purported 3,000 plus "hostages" (prisoners) Israel is holding have committed or attempted to commit attacks on innocent civilians?
It is really sad how ignorant so many people on this board are...it makes me rethink whether I should be a fan of this band. I don't think I'll be attending concerts anymore - it's like attending an anti-Israel rally.
I also wonder why a fan of this band, whose music is based and mired in love and compassion, can continue to condone murderous ilegal acts of barbarism.
I guess thats Republicans for you.
Don't close the door behind you. goodbye. and yes, this is anti-israeli governments muredrous actions rally. You won't be missed.
We have loked at it, and figured that seeing as these people have not been charged, tried, or convicted of any crimes or attacks on civillians, that these people are innocent.
But that's ok, you continue with your racist little view of the world.
I suppose you think the dispossesed in New Orleans had only themselves to blame, eh?
You have no respect for fact, or human life.
Move along.
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
Viva Zapatista!
consider my original post on this thread a rough draft
the final draft can be found on my newest blog at myspace.com/kennyolav. (sorry, this blog contains no T and A)