Why aren't these people paying taxes?

Ahnimus

PaperPlates wrote:

I believe in order to be a church, you'd need a congregation who actually believed the nonsense you spew. A preacher with no crowd is just a nutjob yelling on the corner.

Well, this particular Church of the Universe had thousands of registered members and was always full.

Plus, I'm pretty sure I could get a few thousand people to sit around and listen to me ramble while they are whacked out on psychodelic drugs. It wouldn't be that hard.

dkst0426

hippiemom wrote:

"Anti-gambling leaders in the East Ohio and West Ohio Conferences of the United Methodist Church, an early and staunch opponent of Issue 3, plan to place signs opposing the measure on church grounds throughout the state."

And? If the pastor of a church decides to place a sign on church grounds, guess what? It's PRIVATE property. They are well within his rights to do so.

"The Cleveland Baptist Association, representing 37 churches with 16,000 members, is providing church leaders with anti-gambling materials and updates."

It is not uncommon for churches to print out "voter guides." This (in theory) is no different. Seeing as how this report is from a news source, it would be nice if you could get an actual copy of said "materials and updates" and look at the wording.

The UMC Annual Conferences named and the Baptist Association would be thoroughly stupid to not have approached legal counsel about how best to voice out against this issue. I know--I was working in the South Carolina Annual Conference when the same issue came to light in 1999.

Of course, if this is another topic designed to slam the institutional Church, then all the above is going for naught, anyway.

Cosmo

PaperPlates wrote:

Noone in these churches FORCES anyone to vote a certain way. That would cancel out democracy. And I'm not quite sure why you felt a need to call me a name. "bevis". Good one. As far as 'getting your pokes in' that one hardly seemed worth it. Im sure you can do better.

...
Churches are in the business of 'saving souls'... right? Fine, then save our fucking souls. I just don't want your 'Values' put into legislation that I am forced to obey.
On the other hand, I don't want our government regulating religion since I am a firm believer in the Constitution and Bill of Rights that grants each and every one of us the freedom to choose (or not choose) a religion to believe in.

Uncle Leo

1970RR wrote:

I think that granting special exemptions from taxes and allowing them to bypass regulations everyone else must follow is the opposite of "seperation" and is ,in reality, government subsidies.
The last thing you need is government evaluating what is or is not activism in order to revoke a churches tax-exempt status.

Exactly. Tax exemption seems to merge church and state.

Make them pay the same taxes as any other business, then it's not our business what issues they try to sway people on.

Ahnimus

Uncle Leo wrote:

Exactly. Tax exemption seems to merge church and state.

Make them pay the same taxes as any other business, then it's not our business what issues they try to sway people on.

That's even more apparent with the Boyscouts of America being a Mormon run organization that receives benefits from the government. The BOA also discriminates against homosexuals and atheists. Yet, they still receive moneys from the government.

hippiemom

dkst0426 wrote:

And? If the pastor of a church decides to place a sign on church grounds, guess what? It's PRIVATE property. They are well within his rights to do so.


It is not uncommon for churches to print out "voter guides." This (in theory) is no different. Seeing as how this report is from a news source, it would be nice if you could get an actual copy of said "materials and updates" and look at the wording.

The UMC Annual Conferences named and the Baptist Association would be thoroughly stupid to not have approached legal counsel about how best to voice out against this issue. I know--I was working in the South Carolina Annual Conference when the same issue came to light in 1999.

Of course, if this is another topic designed to slam the institutional Church, then all the above is going for naught, anyway.

Of course it's private property. I put signs on my private property too. I also pay property taxes. Churches do not, because of the supposed separation between church and state. To them I say fine, don't pay taxes, but if you want to be separate then stay the hell out of legislative debates. You want to lobby politically, then guess what, you're not "separate" anymore.

Same thing with the voter guides. They are using tax-exempt income to print and distribute them. This is a political, not a religious activity, and political activities are not exempt for any other group.

In one of the articles I posted, the Catholic church is building a retirement community for millionaires and trying to claim tax-exempt status because it's part of their "ministry." In another of the articles, it talks about daycare centers being exempt from inspections and licensing requirements designed to protect children. Give me a break! You want to be in the daycare business, or the real estate business, then pay taxes like every other business.

Of course the church groups consulted with their legal counsel. I never said, or even implied, that they'd broken the law. What I do say is that it's time to tighten up these laws.

I agree with those who've said that tax-exempt status amounts to government subsidies. There are at least a couple of fundamentalist churches around here who agree with that view and have refused to apply for 501(c)(3) exemption because of it.

PaperPlates

Cosmo wrote:

...
Churches are in the business of 'saving souls'... right? Fine, then save our fucking souls. I just don't want your 'Values' put into legislation that I am forced to obey.
On the other hand, I don't want our government regulating religion since I am a firm believer in the Constitution and Bill of Rights that grants each and every one of us the freedom to choose (or not choose) a religion to believe in.

Those values you scorn so much ARE part of 'saving souls'. At least as I understand it.

"On the other hand, I don't want our government regulating religion since I am a firm believer in the Constitution and Bill of Rights that grants each and every one of us the freedom to choose (or not choose) a religion to believe in."

I couldnt agree more. See, we're not so different.

PaperPlates

Ahnimus wrote:

That's even more apparent with the Boyscouts of America being a Mormon run organization that receives benefits from the government. The BOA also discriminates against homosexuals and atheists. Yet, they still receive moneys from the government.

Lots of things recieve money from the government. Many of them things that the holy rollers loathe. Do you have a problem with govt. giving organizations money in general, or is it just because its "church related"?

Ahnimus

PaperPlates wrote:

Lots of things recieve money from the government. Many of them things that the holy rollers loathe. Do you have a problem with govt. giving organizations money in general, or is it just because its "church related"?

Because they discriminate. If they were indiscriminate and didn't push political or religious agendas, I'd be happy to give them money.

hippiemom

PaperPlates wrote:

Lots of things recieve money from the government. Many of them things that the holy rollers loathe. Do you have a problem with govt. giving organizations money in general, or is it just because its "church related"?

Other groups that receive government funding are subject to licensing requirements, they have to file financial disclosure statements, they have to abide by all state and federal laws. I have a huge problem granting public funds to any group that doesn't work under the same rules as the rest of us.

PaperPlates

hippiemom wrote:

Other groups that receive government funding are subject to licensing requirements, they have to file financial disclosure statements, they have to abide by all state and federal laws. I have a huge problem granting public funds to any group that doesn't work under the same rules as the rest of us.

So do I. Im a republican remember? A real one. I HATE giving money to anyone who doesnt deserve it. Ive been to the vatican, and many non-catholic churches as well. One thing I've never been struck by was how hurting financially any of those institutions are. They don't need my money any more than anyone else getting handouts. I wont argue with you on this one.

hippiemom

PaperPlates wrote:

So do I. Im a republican remember? A real one. I HATE giving money to anyone who doesnt deserve it. Ive been to the vatican, and many non-catholic churches as well. One thing I've never been struck by was how hurting financially any of those institutions are. They don't need my money any more than anyone else getting handouts. I wont argue with you on this one.

Suddenly I feel a wee bit uncomfortable .... here I am on the same side with PaperPlates, and Pastor Ernie of the Church of the Lunatic Fringe.

How did this happen???

Cosmo

PaperPlates wrote:

Those values you scorn so much ARE part of 'saving souls'. At least as I understand it.

"On the other hand, I don't want our government regulating religion since I am a firm believer in the Constitution and Bill of Rights that grants each and every one of us the freedom to choose (or not choose) a religion to believe in."

I couldnt agree more. See, we're not so different.

...
Scorn? I just don't believe that these 'Values' they preach are the values they abide to. Whose Family came up with these Universal Values? Falwell? Robertson? Phelps?
Let me follow my own moral compass... I don't need someone dictating which morals I'm supposed to possess.

PaperPlates

hippiemom wrote:

Suddenly I feel a wee bit uncomfortable .... here I am on the same side with PaperPlates, and Pastor Ernie of the Church of the Lunatic Fringe.

How did this happen???

Crazier things have happened. I mean, they gave flavor flav a freegin tv show ffs, anything can happen.

PaperPlates

Cosmo wrote:

...
Scorn? I just don't believe that these 'Values' they preach are the values they abide to. Whose Family came up with these Universal Values? Falwell? Robertson? Phelps?
Let me follow my own moral compass... I don't need someone dictating which morals I'm supposed to possess.

He said dic-tating.

JOEJOEJOE

I am a CPA, and I just saw a client's closing stmt for a home he bought. The county in which he bought the house charges a "transfer tax" (as most counties do) on the purchase, however, said taxes are called a "Theatre Restoration Tax", which go to refurbishing a local theatre.

I am a hardcore democrat, but this sort of tax goes a bit too far!

On the bright side, the tax is based on the value of the home, so the richer the person, the more thay pay for the theatre restoration! (that appeals to the democrat in me!)

Cosmo

PaperPlates wrote:

He said dic-tating.

...
Dick... the perfect description of people who want America to become more of a theocracy, fusing 'God's Law' with our laws.
And please, don't take this as some sort of theoretical conspiracy against Christianity or Christians... if the Jews or the Muslims or Johovah's Witnesses were doing the same thing... I'd be presenting the very same arguements. I do not want ANY religious beliefs to direct legislation in this country.
Personally... I can't help it if the Christians apparently need constant reminders of what the Ten Commandments are... I don't want my tax dollars going towards things to remind them of what they are supposed to do. I suggest they memorize all 10 of them and try to live by them... if they are so important to them.
Also... there is no War On Christmas. That is a conspiracy theory. It's all about money. Getting Jewish dollars and Muslim dollars and Buddhist dollars from 26-November to 02-January. That's all. There is no law on the books outlawing 'Silent Night', contrary of what Bill O'Rielly tells you.

dkst0426

Cosmo wrote:

There is no law on the books outlawing 'Silent Night', contrary of what Bill O'Rielly tells you.

Actually, that's what the Christians who choose to speak up are trying to remind groups like the ACLU of.

Ahnimus

Cosmo wrote:

...
Dick... the perfect description of people who want America to become more of a theocracy, fusing 'God's Law' with our laws.
And please, don't take this as some sort of theoretical conspiracy against Christianity or Christians... if the Jews or the Muslims or Johovah's Witnesses were doing the same thing... I'd be presenting the very same arguements. I do not want ANY religious beliefs to direct legislation in this country.
Personally... I can't help it if the Christians apparently need constant reminders of what the Ten Commandments are... I don't want my tax dollars going towards things to remind them of what they are supposed to do. I suggest they memorize all 10 of them and try to live by them... if they are so important to them.
Also... there is no War On Christmas. That is a conspiracy theory. It's all about money. Getting Jewish dollars and Muslim dollars and Buddhist dollars from 26-November to 02-January. That's all. There is no law on the books outlawing 'Silent Night', contrary of what Bill O'Rielly tells you.

Yea that is strange, I know all ten commandments and I'm an atheist. Apparently believing in god means you have a short memory.

PaperPlates

Ahnimus wrote:

Yea that is strange, I know all ten commandments and I'm an atheist. Apparently believing in god means you have a short memory.

and apparently being an atheist gives you the right to generalize like it was your job.