i just think that's blatently ignoring the goal...and that's with all due respect b/c you are clearly knowledgeble about the situation. research has show that people will accept democracy if they are convinced that they have a voice, and people need security from everyday thugs, i think we are making progress...unfortunately, the media is fixated on death tolls instead of reporting news, so i'm not so up to date as i should be.
Surely they want democracy. However, they hold some things higher. things they wont sacrifice.
I believe it is possible to bring democracy to Iraq. We need only two things - first we can not expect them to trust us when we don't care about their security. We need three times the number of troops in country to keep their streets safe. We don't care about their security - so they die every day because of the lack of law throughout the country
The second thing - perhaps more difficult - we need to learn to respect them and their decisions. Listen to their ideas and work with them - ranther than dictating.
Right now they can all have to be very careful how they are perceived - because there are many different groups killing and torturing people.
If we are unwilling to respect them enough to provide a reasonable amount of security - and yet continue to insult them by patroling their streets with weapons... we can not possibly win their trust.
and we are wasting out time, money lives and far more of their lives.
Surely they want democracy. However, they hold some things higher. things they wont sacrifice.
I believe it is possible to bring democracy to Iraq. We need only two things - first we can not expect them to trust us when we don't care about their security. We need three times the number of troops in country to keep their streets safe. We don't care about their security - so they die every day because of the lack of law throughout the country
The second thing - perhaps more difficult - we need to learn to respect them and their decisions. Listen to their ideas and work with them - ranther than dictating.
Right now they can all have to be very careful how they are perceived - because there are many different groups killing and torturing people.
If we are unwilling to respect them enough to provide a reasonable amount of security - and yet continue to insult them by patroling their streets with weapons... we can not possibly win their trust.
and we are wasting out time, money lives and far more of their lives.
With all due respect, i think you're criticisms are misplaced. I think we are on the same page...but training these people is taking some time.
at least we agree on the goal..b/c if i have to read one more "stay the course" post i'm going to slam my head against my george foreman grill.
bottom line: we are there, and we need to win. which means we have to train these guys, and it CAN be done.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
With all due respect, i think you're criticisms are misplaced. I think we are on the same page...but training these people is taking some time.
at least we agree on the goal..b/c if i have to read one more "stay the course" post i'm going to slam my head against my george foreman grill.
bottom line: we are there, and we need to win. which means we have to train these guys, and it CAN be done.
We are there.
Win what? I hope you haven't bought into the war on terror. Because world terrorism has less to do with Iraq than it does with Switzerland. The only thing we can possibly do is help Iraq recover from what we have done to them. We are currently not doing that. Training people to use a gun, to march and do some urban police manuvers is not enough.
If they can not go shopping or to school and feel safe - if they are not free to speak their mind - then they are not recovering and democracy is nowhere in sight.
It must start with secure streets. The Iraqi troops we train do not have the same vision for Iraq as us - how could they possibly? there are all manuvering for a piece of what is left.
we can only win by gaining their trust and respect. If we continue to allow 100 people killed and tourtured every week or so.. they will live in fear and continue to blame us... and resist us - however quietly...
It's a whisper campaign designed to covertly sway the voters. It doesn't have to be true, it's just designed to create doubt in the opposition.
Information is the answer to all our problems. Our minds are subject to information, when we learn something new it shifts our thinking. Whisper campaigns seek to cause a shift by introducing information, perhaps false or misleading.
If you think about it almost everything works in this way. The whole concept of court is utilizing information. Evidence, whitness testimony, motive. All have a set value in a court of law. However, politics affect those point values. E.g. a bloody glove as physical evidence can be devalued by claims of planted evidence. It doesn't matter how conclusive or factual the claim is, it serves it's purpose to lower the value of information with conflicting information. This happens in the minds of the jury.
The situation in the world, regarding terrorism, can be thought of the same way. "Terrorists" have received a life time of information drastically different than the western world. The conflicting information to their train of thought is insignificant. It's like throwing an acorn into the Grand Canyon. Our understanding of the situation can also be thought of the same way.
When a person decides to vote they may be faced with an information war in their minds. Many people avoid this conflict of information by simply choosing a set party and always voting for them. They look at the information once and make a decision that sticks, neglecting new information.
It's kind of a Hebbian theory of psychology. Things that fire together wire together. It's difficult for a person without that understanding to escape it.
That's my current train of thought, of course it's subject to persuasion. :cool:
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Win what? I hope you haven't bought into the war on terror. Because world terrorism has less to do with Iraq than it does with Switzerland. ...
Maybe it did at the time we went in, but to not realize that the central front on the war on terror is in Iraq is ignoring what al-Queda is saying themselves. don't believe me, or bush, or whoever, believe THEM...what they are saying.
i wasn't for the iraq war to begin with, and at that time it wasn't part of the war on terror...but it is now, and we don't have a time machine, so we need to deal with it...train the iraqi forces, and once we do that, we win.
again, i'm not sure why this is so hard to understand and frankly, the bush administration has done a crappy job of putting this objective forward.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Maybe it did at the time we went in, but to not realize that the central front on the war on terror is in Iraq is ignoring what al-Queda is saying themselves. don't believe me, or bush, or whoever, believe THEM...what they are saying.
i wasn't for the iraq war to begin with, and at that time it wasn't part of the war on terror...but it is now, and we don't have a time machine, so we need to deal with it...train the iraqi forces, and once we do that, we win.
again, i'm not sure why this is so hard to understand and frankly, the bush administration has done a crappy job of putting this objective forward.
Thats just silly if only you do a little thinking. Do you really believe the terrorists are happy to have an opportunity to fight the United States in a conventional war? They are "Terrorists". The execute dramatic attacks to bring attention to their aganda. Iraq provides for them a pool of recruits and a wonderful consequence free practice field. their propaganda is designed to spread the news that America is the enemy and that we are helping fight them - when in fact the ones fighting are the locals and America's brave. And its only the ones fighting that are losing.
The terrorists win - their message proves right - and their numbers grow.
Bush wins - because he has engaged the angry yet disinterested American vote... he makes money for his supporters -
Iraq is not a war on Terror.. it is a war on Iraq.
The terrorists aren't idiots. If they really wanted the Democrats to win, they wouldn't say it. They know that if they actually said that, it would only help the Republican party.
That's why the entire article is a fake.
It's a town full of losers and I'm pulling out of here to win
i just think that's blatently ignoring the goal...and that's with all due respect b/c you are clearly knowledgeble about the situation. research has show that people will accept democracy if they are convinced that they have a voice, and people need security from everyday thugs, i think we are making progress...unfortunately, the media is fixated on death tolls instead of reporting news, so i'm not so up to date as i should be.
and where is your proof? cos im not convinced they want democracy at all. i dont think they give a shit. i think they just want people to stop dying.
i just think that's blatently ignoring the goal...and that's with all due respect b/c you are clearly knowledgeble about the situation. research has show that people will accept democracy if they are convinced that they have a voice, and people need security from everyday thugs, i think we are making progress...unfortunately, the media is fixated on death tolls instead of reporting news, so i'm not so up to date as i should be.
"fixated on death tolls" i guess death tolls are only important when the death involves you,your family, or friends. If it's people on the other side of the world its just a number. This isnt a game we win or lose; it's life that we're losing.
Do you actually believe that any military action we take will lesson the likelyhood of a terrorist attack? The only way this Iraq war may prolong the time between random acts of terrorism - is that we are doing more damage to ourselves than any terrorist group could hope to.
No I don't. We aren't any safer since this war began. That's what I was trying to say...that terrorist acts are going to happen regardless of who's in office or where we stand in this war.
Alpine Valley 06-13-99 [EV-Solo]
Alpine Valley 10-8-00 (The Icebowl)
Chicago 05-16-06, 05-17-06
Lollapalooza 08-05-07
Chicago 08-22-08 [EV Solo]
Chicago 08-23-09, 08-24-09
Chicago 06-28-11, 06-29-11 [EV Solo]
PJ20 Alpine Valley 09-03-11, 09-04-11
Wrigley Field 07-19-13
Wrigley Field 08-20-16, 08-22-16
No I don't. We aren't any safer since this war began. That's what I was trying to say...that terrorist acts are going to happen regardless of who's in office or where we stand in this war.
I agree with that..
So.. why they did we kill 600,000 Iraqis? See I don't believe we'd have killed 600,000 Iraqis no matter who was in office
Comments
Surely they want democracy. However, they hold some things higher. things they wont sacrifice.
I believe it is possible to bring democracy to Iraq. We need only two things - first we can not expect them to trust us when we don't care about their security. We need three times the number of troops in country to keep their streets safe. We don't care about their security - so they die every day because of the lack of law throughout the country
The second thing - perhaps more difficult - we need to learn to respect them and their decisions. Listen to their ideas and work with them - ranther than dictating.
Right now they can all have to be very careful how they are perceived - because there are many different groups killing and torturing people.
If we are unwilling to respect them enough to provide a reasonable amount of security - and yet continue to insult them by patroling their streets with weapons... we can not possibly win their trust.
and we are wasting out time, money lives and far more of their lives.
With all due respect, i think you're criticisms are misplaced. I think we are on the same page...but training these people is taking some time.
at least we agree on the goal..b/c if i have to read one more "stay the course" post i'm going to slam my head against my george foreman grill.
bottom line: we are there, and we need to win. which means we have to train these guys, and it CAN be done.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
We are there.
Win what? I hope you haven't bought into the war on terror. Because world terrorism has less to do with Iraq than it does with Switzerland. The only thing we can possibly do is help Iraq recover from what we have done to them. We are currently not doing that. Training people to use a gun, to march and do some urban police manuvers is not enough.
If they can not go shopping or to school and feel safe - if they are not free to speak their mind - then they are not recovering and democracy is nowhere in sight.
It must start with secure streets. The Iraqi troops we train do not have the same vision for Iraq as us - how could they possibly? there are all manuvering for a piece of what is left.
we can only win by gaining their trust and respect. If we continue to allow 100 people killed and tourtured every week or so.. they will live in fear and continue to blame us... and resist us - however quietly...
It's a whisper campaign designed to covertly sway the voters. It doesn't have to be true, it's just designed to create doubt in the opposition.
Information is the answer to all our problems. Our minds are subject to information, when we learn something new it shifts our thinking. Whisper campaigns seek to cause a shift by introducing information, perhaps false or misleading.
If you think about it almost everything works in this way. The whole concept of court is utilizing information. Evidence, whitness testimony, motive. All have a set value in a court of law. However, politics affect those point values. E.g. a bloody glove as physical evidence can be devalued by claims of planted evidence. It doesn't matter how conclusive or factual the claim is, it serves it's purpose to lower the value of information with conflicting information. This happens in the minds of the jury.
The situation in the world, regarding terrorism, can be thought of the same way. "Terrorists" have received a life time of information drastically different than the western world. The conflicting information to their train of thought is insignificant. It's like throwing an acorn into the Grand Canyon. Our understanding of the situation can also be thought of the same way.
When a person decides to vote they may be faced with an information war in their minds. Many people avoid this conflict of information by simply choosing a set party and always voting for them. They look at the information once and make a decision that sticks, neglecting new information.
It's kind of a Hebbian theory of psychology. Things that fire together wire together. It's difficult for a person without that understanding to escape it.
That's my current train of thought, of course it's subject to persuasion. :cool:
Maybe it did at the time we went in, but to not realize that the central front on the war on terror is in Iraq is ignoring what al-Queda is saying themselves. don't believe me, or bush, or whoever, believe THEM...what they are saying.
i wasn't for the iraq war to begin with, and at that time it wasn't part of the war on terror...but it is now, and we don't have a time machine, so we need to deal with it...train the iraqi forces, and once we do that, we win.
again, i'm not sure why this is so hard to understand and frankly, the bush administration has done a crappy job of putting this objective forward.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Thats just silly if only you do a little thinking. Do you really believe the terrorists are happy to have an opportunity to fight the United States in a conventional war? They are "Terrorists". The execute dramatic attacks to bring attention to their aganda. Iraq provides for them a pool of recruits and a wonderful consequence free practice field. their propaganda is designed to spread the news that America is the enemy and that we are helping fight them - when in fact the ones fighting are the locals and America's brave. And its only the ones fighting that are losing.
The terrorists win - their message proves right - and their numbers grow.
Bush wins - because he has engaged the angry yet disinterested American vote... he makes money for his supporters -
Iraq is not a war on Terror.. it is a war on Iraq.
The terrorists aren't idiots. If they really wanted the Democrats to win, they wouldn't say it. They know that if they actually said that, it would only help the Republican party.
That's why the entire article is a fake.
and where is your proof? cos im not convinced they want democracy at all. i dont think they give a shit. i think they just want people to stop dying.
"fixated on death tolls" i guess death tolls are only important when the death involves you,your family, or friends. If it's people on the other side of the world its just a number. This isnt a game we win or lose; it's life that we're losing.
No I don't. We aren't any safer since this war began. That's what I was trying to say...that terrorist acts are going to happen regardless of who's in office or where we stand in this war.
Alpine Valley 10-8-00 (The Icebowl)
Chicago 05-16-06, 05-17-06
Lollapalooza 08-05-07
Chicago 08-22-08 [EV Solo]
Chicago 08-23-09, 08-24-09
Chicago 06-28-11, 06-29-11 [EV Solo]
PJ20 Alpine Valley 09-03-11, 09-04-11
Wrigley Field 07-19-13
Wrigley Field 08-20-16, 08-22-16
I agree with that..
So.. why they did we kill 600,000 Iraqis? See I don't believe we'd have killed 600,000 Iraqis no matter who was in office
I agree. Sounds like a pot of planted news...
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=645841891