I Love This Woman With All My Heart

WindNoSail

Ahnimus wrote:

I wonder if a picture of Christ eating out a prostitute would mean as much to the Christian world.

Any chance you could consider a statement like this before you post it? There is no comparison - your suggestion would be distasteful, offensive, etc. A picture of Mohammned is nothing, even with a bomb on his head. Satire is a good thing and I don't buy into the concept that it is off limits for religious reasons and that I deserve death for it. I would rather question the idiocy of the perp who believed such a thing.

No logic Ahnimus, and I know that must really bug you for me to say that.

MrBrian

WindNoSail wrote:

Do you feel sorry for her because you think she is ignorant and small minded, or because she lost her husband in a terrorist attack? Sounded rather condescending to say you sympathize with her.

The train bombings being about Iraq (whatever) would never justify it, but yet you do. That is just plain wrong thinking.

She wore the tshirt because she wanted to piss them off, what is sad is that is all she can do ... she doesn't really have any other options does she?

No matter how much anyone hates the Iraq war, there is no justification for acts of terrorism. I cannot critize someone who has suffered from this violence for something as inane as wearing a tshirt.

Want to criticize, pick on someone who actually kills people.

of course I feel sorry for her, I said that in my post. whatever else you think after that I'm not even gonna get into.

I've had very very close relatives killed before. shot on the streets, in homes in south africa. the mothers (my aunts) screaming "keffer" (sp?) because the people who are doing the killings are black. I feel sorry that they lost their sons and daughters. I mean they were my cousins! But I still call them (my aunts and uncles)ignorant and stupid for screaming racist terms to try and make the pain go away. because you know what? it does'nt really help.

Now this spain situation is a bit different, but the base of it I feel is the same.

Now you want to talk about justification? this woman should be angry at the government for going into the war that caused this. I'm not saying the bombings were good, of course not. what did the people on the train have to do with the war? of course, nothing. but you want a fact? the bombings helped shift the power to an anti war government. does that make the bombings justified? no, but at least some good came out of it.

Jeanie

Tom K wrote:

Have you ever heard of piss christ by Andres Serrano?

Yes, we had it here in Australia once I believe. It was highly controversial.
And seemed to inflame people no end.

Jeanie

I guess I'm still not understanding what it is that she has done that would require psychological evalution.

It seems to me that she wanted to lodge her protest and show that she was unbowed to the killers of her husband and she chose a non violent, fairly inventive way to do that.

Why would that require her to talk to psychologists?

I think the reporting of her undergoing discussion with psychologists undermines the power of her protest and her right to speak her truth and that seems not right to me.

Perhaps the ones needing to talk to psychologists are the bombers?

Kann

lucylespian wrote:

Why not dude, Muslims feel free to insult "Westerners" all the time, and seem to derive great satisfaction from it. Feeling free to freely call us "infidels" in a totally derogatory way, and having no inhibition about attacking whatever about our culture they don't like.

I admire this woman also. She is showing her defiance and unwillingness to be cowed by these people.

There should be more of this from the Western world. I love her too !!!!!!!!!!

That just kind of reeks of opposing worlds and views and lays pathways for cultural wars wich are not much more than religion wars. I think it's a sad way to see the world. Stopping the provocation/violence cycle would have been a love worthy gesture.
(Oh and on a side note there are "westerner" muslims)

Heineken Helen

Ahnimus wrote:

If I wear a shirt with chirst giving a blowjob to a pig, will you love me?

Did I kill your wife because of religion?

I think it was a great thing for her to do... obviously the trial would be painful for the families and she would need help getting through it... but this is one thing SHE can do, without physically hurting them, to make them see how fucking hypocritical they've been... they can't see images of their prophet being made fun of... but it's ok to kill people to make their point :rolleyes: . She's wearing a t-shirt to make a point.

Heineken Helen

MrBrian wrote:

Now you want to talk about justification? this woman should be angry at the government for going into the war that caused this. I'm not saying the bombings were good, of course not. what did the people on the train have to do with the war? of course, nothing. but you want a fact? the bombings helped shift the power to an anti war government. does that make the bombings justified? no, but at least some good came out of it.

The Spanish people obviously didn't want the war anyway so their government had NO right acting on their behalf and going in. Does this make it ok for some fuckheads to kill people who are on their side? Absolutely not! What good came from that? The war's still going on... George and Tony didn't lose a wink of sleep over Spain pulling out... but yet several people are dead because their government went against their wishes

Heineken Helen

Jeanie wrote:

I guess I'm still not understanding what it is that she has done that would require psychological evalution.

It seems to me that she wanted to lodge her protest and show that she was unbowed to the killers of her husband and she chose a non violent, fairly inventive way to do that.

Why would that require her to talk to psychologists?

I think the reporting of her undergoing discussion with psychologists undermines the power of her protest and her right to speak her truth and that seems not right to me.

Nicely put Jeanie

Yes, wouldn't it be wonderful for her to forgive these men and show some love and support for them... that would be a beautiful act... but this woman is not fucking Jesus! You try losing a loved one for somebody elses cause and see how much love and forgiveness you want to show.

lucylespian

Kann wrote:

That just kind of reeks of opposing worlds and views and lays pathways for cultural wars wich are not much more than religion wars. I think it's a sad way to see the world. Stopping the provocation/violence cycle would have been a love worthy gesture.
(Oh and on a side note there are "westerner" muslims)

People like those terrorists just don't get subtle messages. Don't be too literal about "westerners", i was trying to use a simple label. Cat Stevens is an example of a Western muslim, and his behaviour is nothing to admire. I still admire this lady for her defiant attitude toward the murderers of her husband.
Sometimes the people who love freedom have to stand up fro themselves or the ones who would take it away have free rein. Tolerance, sadly, has a way of allowing the wolf to roam in through the front door. Sometimes ya gotta stand up and kick em back.

Jeanie

Heineken Helen wrote:

Nicely put Jeanie

Yes, wouldn't it be wonderful for her to forgive these men and show some love and support for them... that would be a beautiful act... but this woman is not fucking Jesus! You try losing a loved one for somebody elses cause and see how much love and forgiveness you want to show.

Thanks Helen.:)

I have to say that I would never intentionally offend someone for their religious beliefs, and whilst I am aware that Muslims have found the Danish cartoons extremely offensive, I would like to hope that most good Muslims are more appalled by acts of extremism and terror than by cartoons. I don't consider the men who perpertrated the acts of violence in Madrid to be worthy of respect for their religious beliefs. And if this woman wanted to be truly offensive she would have denounced all Muslims. There could have been so many other things she could have said or done if she truly wanted to be offensive or vicious. She didn't even speak. But she also spoke volumes.

Heineken Helen

Jeanie wrote:

Thanks Helen.:)

I have to say that I would never intentionally offend someone for their religious beliefs, and whilst I am aware that Muslims have found the Danish cartoons extremely offensive, I would like to hope that most good Muslims are more appalled by acts of extremism and terror than by cartoons. I don't consider the men who perpertrated the acts of violence in Madrid to be worthy of respect for their religious beliefs. And if this woman wanted to be truly offensive she would have denounced all Muslims. There could have been so many other things she could have said or done if she truly wanted to be offensive or vicious. She didn't even speak. But she also spoke volumes.

Well the vast majority of Muslims are appaled by the acts of extremism... actually any REAL muslim would be. The Muslims in Ireland were quite respectable in their protests over the cartoons... I can't remember if any Irish papers printed it anyway... but there's such a double standard though, like someone said they can say whatever they want but we MUST be respectful over something that we can't understand or they'll kill because of it

I stand by my opinion that when you're in someone elses country/home, you must respect THEM. I would never move to a Muslim country simply because I like the way of life here and could not possibly live by their rules... although I understand that it's their way of life. If I HAD to move to a Muslim country for whatever reasons however, I WOULD certainly live by their laws. I wouldn't turn up and start demanding that they respect me and adapt to my way of life... that's just not how it works. I stay here cos I like it, I presume anyone who comes here comes because they want to live this way and so they should.

soulsinging

WindNoSail wrote:

Any chance you could consider a statement like this before you post it? There is no comparison - your suggestion would be distasteful, offensive, etc. A picture of Mohammned is nothing, even with a bomb on his head. Satire is a good thing and I don't buy into the concept that it is off limits for religious reasons and that I deserve death for it. I would rather question the idiocy of the perp who believed such a thing.

No logic Ahnimus, and I know that must really bug you for me to say that.

what about the comic/tshirt of christ going down on a pig? ive seen that comment, it is very satirical in terms of sending up the wealth of the church in the west. so that is acceptable?

Jeanie

Heineken Helen wrote:

Well the vast majority of Muslims are appaled by the acts of extremism... actually any REAL muslim would be. The Muslims in Ireland were quite respectable in their protests over the cartoons... I can't remember if any Irish papers printed it anyway... but there's such a double standard though, like someone said they can say whatever they want but we MUST be respectful over something that we can't understand or they'll kill because of it

I stand by my opinion that when you're in someone elses country/home, you must respect THEM. I would never move to a Muslim country simply because I like the way of life here and could not possibly live by their rules... although I understand that it's their way of life. If I HAD to move to a Muslim country for whatever reasons however, I WOULD certainly live by their laws. I wouldn't turn up and start demanding that they respect me and adapt to my way of life... that's just not how it works. I stay here cos I like it, I presume anyone who comes here comes because they want to live this way and so they should.

Yes, I think that unfortunately moderate Muslims don't speak up enough, or that their voices are lost in the cacophany. But there are plenty of them here too. We have a bit of an enclave in Sydney or so it would seem, of angry Muslim men, but here in Melbourne things are much calmer and harmonious. And I'd say that the majority of Muslims who have immigrated to Australia are peaceful people, who have integrated well. And we have even embraced many things about their culture and religion. Unfortunately extremist views are everywhere. I think that as you say, respect the laws and traditions of the land you are in. No harm in learning new things but the basic structure of a country should go unchanged.

Kann

lucylespian wrote:

People like those terrorists just don't get subtle messages. Don't be too literal about "westerners", i was trying to use a simple label. Cat Stevens is an example of a Western muslim, and his behaviour is nothing to admire. I still admire this lady for her defiant attitude toward the murderers of her husband.
Sometimes the people who love freedom have to stand up fro themselves or the ones who would take it away have free rein. Tolerance, sadly, has a way of allowing the wolf to roam in through the front door. Sometimes ya gotta stand up and kick em back.

I understand the admiration, I'm arguing on the symbolism. I understand the grief of that person but I disagree with her way to express it.
As for tolerance and freedom, well in my view those are double edged weapons you have to accept not propriety you have to defend.

Heineken Helen wrote:

I stand by my opinion that when you're in someone elses country/home, you must respect THEM. I would never move to a Muslim country simply because I like the way of life here and could not possibly live by their rules...

I know my analogy is very far fetched but it holds some kinf of idea I can't put into words!
I have a childhood friend raised in my country but whose parents come from lebanon. I used to get hammered on vodka with him and go eat a mcbacon to ease out the hangover. A few years ago he kind of got an "islamic epiphany", stopped short alcohol and pork. He still is a very dear friend and when he comes to my house I refrain from getting drunk (will have a few beers though) and cook food without pork, out of respect for him. These are minor efforts and they show respect and everyone's happy. I'm not sure it's can be extended to countries and populations, but it's a nice story?

Heineken Helen

Jeanie wrote:

Yes, I think that unfortunately moderate Muslims don't speak up enough, or that their voices are lost in the cacophany. But there are plenty of them here too. We have a bit of an enclave in Sydney or so it would seem, of angry Muslim men, but here in Melbourne things are much calmer and harmonious. And I'd say that the majority of Muslims who have immigrated to Australia are peaceful people, who have integrated well. And we have even embraced many things about their culture and religion. Unfortunately extremist views are everywhere. I think that as you say, respect the laws and traditions of the land you are in. No harm in learning new things but the basic structure of a country should go unchanged.

well see I hold the view that people leave their country if they want a change so they should embrace that change, those who stay are obviously happy where they are and like how it is so they shouldn't have a change enforced on them... if you like the culture of your country and want to live like that well stay there... of course you can live how you like in other countries, just don't force others to do the same

Heineken Helen

Kann wrote:

I know my analogy is very far fetched but it holds some kinf of idea I can't put into words!
I have a childhood friend raised in my country but whose parents come from lebanon. I used to get hammered on vodka with him and go eat a mcbacon to ease out the hangover. A few years ago he kind of got an "islamic epiphany", stopped short alcohol and pork. He still is a very dear friend and when he comes to my house I refrain from getting drunk (will have a few beers though) and cook food without pork, out of respect for him. These are minor efforts and they show respect and everyone's happy. I'm not sure it's can be extended to countries and populations, but it's a nice story?

It is a nice story and I'm sure he appreciates it... but you ARE in his company because you WANT to be. If he came to your house and went through your fridge and killed you because you had pork in the fridge, I'm sure you'd be none too happy . I have muslim friends too and I respect their views totally and will do my best to accommodate them when I can but if I forget something I'd be very surprised if they got offended and I don't think they would. Well a muslim friend of my sister called around one night and I was already drinking when she came so I joined them at the table with my bottle of wine... after two hours she decided she couldn't sit there anymore because she can't be in the same room as alcohol :rolleyes: now THAT'S bullshit if you ask me. She's sitting there smoking away but blames my alcohol (I'd actually only had two glasses in the whole time she was there so it's not as if I was drunk) as her reason for having to leave :rolleyes:

Jeanie

Heineken Helen wrote:

well see I hold the view that people leave their country if they want a change so they should embrace that change, those who stay are obviously happy where they are and like how it is so they shouldn't have a change enforced on them... if you like the culture of your country and want to live like that well stay there... of course you can live how you like in other countries, just don't force others to do the same

I guess. I think a lot of people leave their countries because they have to. And that when they get to their new country they are just being how they are, so on top of everything else, they aren't going to be suddenly rocking up to my house on Sunday in shorts and thongs ready to chow down on a bbq.
And that's ok, because while I'm happy to learn about their cultures and beliefs and embrace some of them of them as my own, I'm not going to be changing my intrinsic nature to theirs. Just as they won't be to mine.
I think it's probably very different here anyway, because we are all immigrants, except for the indegenous population. So we all have brought different ideals, religions, cultures here and while we have all kept those to a greater or lesser degree we also accept that we have to embrace our differences in order to make the country work. Whilst Australia is a melting pot, I do agree that we do need to be respectful of each other.

Heineken Helen

Jeanie wrote:

I guess. I think a lot of people leave their countries because they have to. And that when they get to their new country they are just being how they are, so on top of everything else, they aren't going to be suddenly rocking up to my house on Sunday in shorts and thongs ready to chow down on a bbq.
And that's ok, because while I'm happy to learn about their cultures and beliefs and embrace some of them of them as my own, I'm not going to be changing my intrinsic nature to theirs. Just as they won't be to mine.
I think it's probably very different here anyway, because we are all immigrants, except for the indegenous population. So we all have brought different ideals, religions, cultures here and while we have all kept those to a greater or lesser degree we also accept that we have to embrace our differences in order to make the country work. Whilst Australia is a melting pot, I do agree that we do need to be respectful of each other.

Well you still have a choice... albeit a bad one: stay in your own country and be persecuted OR pursue a new life elsewhere. If you choose the latter you must be willing to respect those you are visiting if you want them to welcome you... otherwise you're no better than those who forced you to leave your own country. And like I said, of COURSE they can live as they've always lived but they should not expect others to automatically adapt to them... since it was not them who CHOSE to change. I'm totally for respect and everyone respecting everyone... I'm talking of the examples of people moving to other countries and then demanding that laws be changed to suit their ways of life and stuff like that... or those who move here and do nothing but complain about the way of life I really don't get it. If you're here, it's STILL better than your country whether you like it or not.

Jeanie

Heineken Helen wrote:

Well you still have a choice... albeit a bad one: stay in your own country and be persecuted OR pursue a new life elsewhere. If you choose the latter you must be willing to respect those you are visiting if you want them to welcome you... otherwise you're no better than those who forced you to leave your own country. And like I said, of COURSE they can live as they've always lived but they should not expect others to automatically adapt to them... since it was not them who CHOSE to change. I'm totally for respect and everyone respecting everyone... I'm talking of the examples of people moving to other countries and then demanding that laws be changed to suit their ways of life and stuff like that... or those who move here and do nothing but complain about the way of life I really don't get it. If you're here, it's STILL better than your country whether you like it or not.

Very true. We agree. I have no time or patience for being dictated terms by people who showed up five minutes ago and want everything to revolve around them. So by all means attempt to change the intrinsic nature of a country but don't be surprised if you are met with some pretty heavy resistance.

MrBrian

Heineken Helen wrote:

The Spanish people obviously didn't want the war anyway so their government had NO right acting on their behalf and going in. Does this make it ok for some fuckheads to kill people who are on their side? Absolutely not! What good came from that? The war's still going on... George and Tony didn't lose a wink of sleep over Spain pulling out... but yet several people are dead because their government went against their wishes

yep. that's about right.

Ahnimus

WindNoSail wrote:

Any chance you could consider a statement like this before you post it? There is no comparison - your suggestion would be distasteful, offensive, etc. A picture of Mohammned is nothing, even with a bomb on his head. Satire is a good thing and I don't buy into the concept that it is off limits for religious reasons and that I deserve death for it. I would rather question the idiocy of the perp who believed such a thing.

No logic Ahnimus, and I know that must really bug you for me to say that.

The picture of Mohammed suggested that he stood for bombing and murder. Christ spent a lot of time with prostitutes, so showing that would be kind of like the same thing. I'll admit I could have thought of something better. And yes, some of my family was murdered by die-hard Christian mofos.

Heineken Helen

Ahnimus wrote:

The picture of Mohammed suggested that he stood for bombing and murder. Christ spent a lot of time with prostitutes, so showing that would be kind of like the same thing. I'll admit I could have thought of something better. And yes, some of my family was murdered by die-hard Christian mofos.

But it's STILL just a picture... people need to stop more often and think 'what would Jesus do in this situation?'

I think he woulda chose a different route than all the protests and threats to be perfectly honest. If you think something is childish and ignorant, well it's up to you to rise above it. If somebody killed one of my loved ones, I will use every avenue available to me to piss them off... if that includes parading around a courtroom in a t-shirt, well that's what I'll do.

elmer

the original cartoon protesters should have had their placards rammed down their throats. The authorities were wrong not to act at the time, police should have busted heads. Their offense is laughable, as for all the "moderate muslim..." lefty bollocks.....well...

elmer

MrBrian wrote:

this woman should be angry at the government for going into the war that caused this. I'm not saying the bombings were good, of course not. what did the people on the train have to do with the war? of course, nothing. but you want a fact? the bombings helped shift the power to an anti war government. does that make the bombings justified? no, but at least some good came out of it.

No good came out the bombings, in spite of what anybody may say.

I pity that woman for her protest, it seems somehow a feeble gesture.

on jan2nd a car bomb detonated around madrid airport, I believe killing 2 so the new government hasnt appeased all. The spanish above all should recognize the threats that are posed by muslims.

Heineken Helen

elmer wrote:

No good came out the bombings, in spite of what anybody may say.

I pity that woman for her protest, it seems somehow a feeble gesture.

on jan2nd a car bomb detonated around madrid airport, I believe killing 2 so the new government hasnt appeased all. The spanish above all should recognize the threats that are posed by muslims.

To be honest I can't understand the Spanish stance on this. If my government had chosen to be involved in this against our wishes... and they retaliated by killing some of my fellow countrypeople... well I think I'd change my mind and back my government, rather than bowing to the ignorance of these terrorists (note, not muslims, the Koran does NOT instruct people to act this way)

elmer

Heineken Helen wrote:

To be honest I can't understand the Spanish stance on this. If my government had chosen to be involved in this against our wishes... and they retaliated by killing some of my fellow countrypeople... well I think I'd change my mind and back my government, rather than bowing to the ignorance of these terrorists (note, not muslims, the Koran does NOT instruct people to act this way)

people of madrid felt the government had lied to them, and that all would have been clear from the aftermath yet inklings of eta or other organisations were banded around so they could buy themselves time. something like that.

elmer

elmer wrote:

the original cartoon protesters should have had their placards rammed down their throats. The authorities were wrong not to act at the time, police should have busted heads. Their offense is laughable, as for all the "moderate muslim..." lefty bollocks.....well...

obviously a strong reaction would only have raised tensions but its what I thought when I see groups of adult men allowed to threaten bombs over an "offensive cartoon".
dont know about their religion but seems like some kind of death cult from a distance.

Heineken Helen

elmer wrote:

obviously a strong reaction would only have raised tensions but its what I thought when I see groups of adult men allowed to threaten bombs over an "offensive cartoon".

It is quite funny when you put it like that