Global Warming v Terrorism

pushmepullme

Anyone hear more worried about global warming than terrorism? I'm so scared and depressed by global warming that I can't read or hear anything related to it, it makes my heart sink thinking about the damage we're doing to this planet, and that there are people who refuse to do anything about it (step forward our leaders).
I don't think people realise how privileged we are to exist.

pushmepullme

You know you get all these fucking right wing Americans going on about God and their love for Jesus, saying the world is great, etc. Yet they drive to Church in their fuckign 4x4's when they live only 2 doors away. It makes me sick.

Ahnimus

I am not afraid of either.

I think they don't do anything about global warming because it's contradictory to their financial goals. Oil is a big contributor to "greenhouse" gases. The question is, is the world at threat of increasing in temperature?

What does the EPA say?

http://yosemite.epa.gov/oar/globalwarming.nsf/content/climate.html

EPA wrote:

An Introduction
According to the National Academy of Sciences, the Earth's surface temperature has risen by about 1 degree Fahrenheit in the past century, with accelerated warming during the past two decades. There is new and stronger evidence that most of the warming over the last 50 years is attributable to human activities. Human activities have altered the chemical composition of the atmosphere through the buildup of greenhouse gases – primarily carbon dioxide, methane, and nitrous oxide. The heat-trapping property of these gases is undisputed although uncertainties exist about exactly how earth’s climate responds to them. Go to the Emissions section for much more on greenhouse gases.

Ok, it's not 1 degree, that's what I heard at first, but further research reveals graphs and it's 0.6 degrees. It was -0.2 in the 80's, it was actually cooler than normal. Here is the research evidence. Note the section that reads "The heat-trapping property of these [greenhouse] gases is undisputed although uncertainties exist about exactly how earth’s climate responds to them." . Ok, what about those gases?

Nitrous Oxide, I know it's used in Cars as Nitro, Nitrous Methane is also used in Drag Racers called Topfuel and some Remote Controlled Cars. It's also used in medical facilities as an anasthetic, some people call it Laughing Gas. Though these days doctors mostly use anesthetic like Benzocaine.

What does wikipedia say?

wikipedia wrote:

Nitrous oxide, also known as dinitrogen oxide or dinitrogen monoxide, is a chemical compound with chemical formula N2O. Under room conditions, it is a colourless non-flammable gas, with a pleasant, slightly-sweet odor. It is used in surgery and dentistry for its anaesthetic and analgesic effects, where it is commonly known as laughing gas due to the euphoric effects of inhaling it. It is also used as an oxidizer in internal combustion engines. In this use it is known as nitrous, or NOS after a well-known brand which has become a genericized trademark. Nitrous oxide is present in the atmosphere where it acts as a powerful greenhouse gas.

OK, ok, next. What about methane?

wikipedia wrote:

Methane is a greenhouse gas with a global warming potential over 100 years of 23.[1] When averaged over 100 years each kg of CH4 warms the earth 23 times as much as the same mass of CO2.

The Earth's crust contains huge amounts of methane. Large amounts of methane are emitted to the atmosphere through mud volcanoes which are connected with deep geological faults or as the main constituent of biogas formed naturally by anaerobic digestion.

Natural gas fields
The major source of methane is extraction from geological deposits known as natural gas fields. It is associated with other hydrocarbon fuels and sometimes accompanied by helium and nitrogen. The gas at shallow levels (low pressure) is formed by anaerobic decay of organic matter deep under the Earth's surface. In general, sediments buried deeper and at higher temperatures than those which give oil generate natural gas.

Alternative sources
Apart from gas fields an alternative method of obtaining methane is via biogas generated by the fermentation of organic matter including manure, wastewater sludge, municipal solid waste, or any other biodegradable feedstock, under anaerobic conditions. Industrially, methane can be created from common atmospheric gases and hydrogen (produced, perhaps, by electrolysis) through chemical reactions such as the Sabatier process, Fischer-Tropsch process. Coal bed methane extraction is a method for extracting methane from a coal deposit. It is also caused by cows' natural gas.

Hence, my jokes about cow's farts causing global warming. Or the dinosaurs crapping up an ice age. Ok, finally carbon dioxide CO2.

wikipedia wrote:

Atmospheric carbon dioxide derives from multiple natural sources including volcanic outgassing, the combustion of organic matter, and the respiration processes of living aerobic organisms; man-made sources of carbon dioxide come mainly from the burning of various fossil fuels for power generation and transport use. It is also produced by various microorganisms from fermentation and cellular respiration. Plants utilize carbon dioxide during photosynthesis, using both the carbon and the oxygen to construct carbohydrates. In addition, plants also release oxygen to the atmosphere, which is subsequently used for respiration by heterotrophic organisms, forming a cycle.

Yea so naturally occuring, yup again. Ok, so they all naturally occur and we help em out a bit. But the main sources are from the earth itself, and according to the EPA it's actually good.

EPA wrote:

Energy from the sun drives the earth’s weather and climate, and heats the earth’s surface; in turn, the earth radiates energy back into space. Atmospheric greenhouse gases (water vapor, carbon dioxide, and other gases) trap some of the outgoing energy, retaining heat somewhat like the glass panels of a greenhouse.
Without this natural “greenhouse effect,” temperatures would be much lower than they are now, and life as known today would not be possible. Instead, thanks to greenhouse gases, the earth’s average temperature is a more hospitable 60°F. However, problems may arise when the atmospheric concentration of greenhouse gases increases.

So, what happened before, with the dinosaurs and before that and before that.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ec/Co2-temperature-plot.png

Ah cool, so this has happened how many times? And how do we know this? Assuming this is true. What caused it the first 5 times? farts and volcanoes? Decomposing biological waste? According to these graphs we are due for an ice age anyway. Or did the Dinosaurs drive cars? Were there advanced civilizations several times in the history of our planet, extinct by their own destruction, harvesting the planet for fossil fuel? I'd say it's pretty inconclusive. I'd say we don't know what's causing it, but global warming is natural. Wether we burn oil or not the earth naturally does.

OutOfBreath

Ahnimus, noone disputes that.
What is the question is whether our added effect, is the famous drop that overflows the cup.

Peace
Dan

Ahnimus

OutOfBreath wrote:

Ahnimus, noone disputes that.
What is the question is whether our added effect, is the famous drop that overflows the cup.

Peace
Dan

That's what I said, it's inconclusive. Certainly we need to study it more and push the research of zero-point energy. I just don't think it's something to get all excited about.

pushmepullme

Yeah, because the ice caps melting is 'inconclusive'.

WMA

It does seem to be going faster than in the past though.

Carbon dioxide levels are substantially higher now than at any time in the last 800,000 years, the latest study of ice drilled out of Antarctica confirms.

The in-depth analysis of air bubbles trapped in a 3.2km-long core of frozen snow shows current greenhouse gas concentrations are unprecedented.

The East Antarctic core is the longest, deepest ice column yet extracted.
...
Earlier results from the Epica core were published in 2004 and 2005, detailing the events back to 440,000 years and 650,000 years respectively. Scientists have now gone the full way through the column, back another 150,000 years.

The picture is the same: carbon dioxide and temperature rise and fall in step.
...
In the core, the fastest increase seen was of the order of 30 parts per million (ppm) by volume over a period of roughly 1,000 years.

"The last 30 ppm of increase has occurred in just 17 years.
...

from http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5314592.stm

Edit: As far as fear. I don't really worry about either, though global warming is no doubt a higher risk. You are much more likely to die from almost anything else you can think of than you are by a terrorist attack statistically speaking.

chopitdown

pushmepullme wrote:

You know you get all these fucking right wing Americans going on about God and their love for Jesus, saying the world is great, etc. Yet they drive to Church in their fuckign 4x4's when they live only 2 doors away. It makes me sick.

Does it make you sick when you see liberals or agnostic driving SUV's around?
http://www.creationcare.org/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1491-2005Feb5.html
There is growing evidence -- in polling and in public statements of church leaders -- that evangelicals are beginning to go for the green. Despite wariness toward mainstream environmental groups, a growing number of evangelicals view stewardship of the environment as a responsibility mandated by God in the Bible.

"The environment is a values issue," said the Rev. Ted Haggard, president of the 30 million-member National Association of Evangelicals. "There are significant and compelling theological reasons why it should be a banner issue for the Christian right."

In October, the association's leaders adopted an "Evangelical Call to Civic Responsibility" that, for the first time, emphasized every Christian's duty to care for the planet and the role of government in safeguarding a sustainable environment.

"We affirm that God-given dominion is a sacred responsibility to steward the earth and not a license to abuse the creation of which we are a part," said the statement, which has been distributed to 50,000 member churches. "Because clean air, pure water, and adequate resources are crucial to public health and civic order, government has an obligation to protect its citizens from the effects of environmental degradation."

Signatories included highly visible, opinion-swaying evangelical leaders such as Haggard, James Dobson of Focus on the Family and Chuck Colson of Prison Fellowship Ministries. Some of the signatories are to meet in March in Washington to develop a position on global warming, which could place them at odds with the policies of the Bush administration, according to Richard Cizik, the association's vice president for governmental affairs.

Also last fall, Christianity Today, an influential evangelical magazine, weighed in for the first time on global warming. It said that "Christians should make it clear to governments and businesses that we are willing to adapt our lifestyles and support steps towards changes that protect our environment."

The magazine came out in favor of a global warming bill -- sponsored by Sens. John McCain (R-Ariz.) and Joseph I. Lieberman (D-Conn.) -- that the Bush administration opposed and the Republican-controlled Senate defeated.

Polling has found a strengthening consensus among evangelicals for strict environmental rules, even if they cost jobs and higher prices, said John C. Green, director of the Ray C. Bliss Institute of Applied Politics at the University of Akron. In 2000, about 45 percent of evangelicals supported strict environmental regulations, according to Green's polling. That jumped to 52 percent last year.

polaris

yeah ... me ...

farfromglorified

I'm worried about neither.

even flow?

I'm not too concerned with global warming as to the poisons that we dump into the earth and water on a daily basis. God put all this natural water sources for us to use and I need to buy it in a bottle. Somebody at the top of the chain saying they believe in god is full of shit. Toss in the fact that god put all these crops on the planet, that keep giving back, to keep mankind and all the pretty animals alive and some dumb fuck decides that making sure they die after one harvest so he and his corporation can make big bucks kind of sucks. Be sure to kill off the species while we smile and say thank you very much. How much does it cost!

Eliot Rosewater

Some people think climate change is a farce.....times that by a million and we might be in the area of how big a farce the threat of terrorism is.

El_Kabong

even flow? wrote:

I'm not too concerned with global warming as to the poisons that we dump into the earth and water on a daily basis. God put all this natural water sources for us to use and I need to buy it in a bottle. Somebody at the top of the chain saying they believe in god is full of shit. Toss in the fact that god put all these crops on the planet, that keep giving back, to keep mankind and all the pretty animals alive and some dumb fuck decides that making sure they die after one harvest so he and his corporation can make big bucks kind of sucks. Be sure to kill off the species while we smile and say thank you very much. How much does it cost!

i know, even if you don't believe in global warming you can't possibly think all the toxic shit we dump does no harm...poison the water, air, land...

surferdude

Neither worries me particularly. It's stupid to worry over things you have virtually no control over.

Terrorism - There's basically nothing I can do about this, so it's not on my worry radar.

Global Warming - As a significant part of global warmimg people have no control over I don't really worry about it. I try to do my bit to help conserve but that's about it, and it's not done out of worry but because it's the right thing for me to do.

Like evenflow? I have greater concerns over some of the crap/toxins being pumped into my body on a daily basis. This I at least have some control over so I worry a tiny bit about it. But at the end of the day I find that oral application of alcohol helps me forget these worries.

rebornFixer

I worry about both to some extent, although like other people said, I don't walk around all day incapacitated by worry about things that I cannot really control. Globing warming is not scarier than terrorism, but the latter is not something that I can afford to lose too much sleep over either. A person has got to function day to day.

Vedderlution_Baby

What's the worst that could happen if we decided to do something about global warming? We find a alternative fuel source and stop using middle eastern oil. That would help the war on terrorism and the enviroment wouldn't it?

jeffbr

Neither one worries me.

know1

pushmepullme wrote:

You know you get all these fucking right wing Americans going on about God and their love for Jesus, saying the world is great, etc. Yet they drive to Church in their fuckign 4x4's when they live only 2 doors away. It makes me sick.

What does one have to do with the other? (and do you think there are any left wing Americans who drive to church in their SUV's)

For the record, I'm unconcerned with either global warming or terrorism (and that doesn't mean I litter or abuse the environment unnecessarily)