All I'm saying is give libertarianism a chance.
Pacomc79
Posts: 9,404
All I've heard from republican canidates last week is that libertarians don't believe in government.
Absolute utter bullshit.
Plenty of libertarians believe in government the vast majority of libertarians believe in small direct government with strong local power and less national infuence giving the most amount of personal and economic liberties possible but still maintaining commerce and safety in society, theydon't believe in the hulking steaming pile of waste the Democratic and Republican parties have allowed it to become.
Frankly, voting republican if you're a fiscal conservative is more a "waste of your vote" than voting libertarian.
After hearing Sonny Perdue talk about it this morning and seeing his new "tax" plan.....
I'm voting Libertarian all the way down the list. I'm completely done with the Republican and Democratic parties. Worthless assholes all.
Like I'm going to listen to a phone call from fucking John Ashcroft telling me how I should vote anyway.
Saying Libertarians don't believe in any government is like me saying Republicans believe in moral totalitiarianism.
Absolute utter bullshit.
Plenty of libertarians believe in government the vast majority of libertarians believe in small direct government with strong local power and less national infuence giving the most amount of personal and economic liberties possible but still maintaining commerce and safety in society, theydon't believe in the hulking steaming pile of waste the Democratic and Republican parties have allowed it to become.
Frankly, voting republican if you're a fiscal conservative is more a "waste of your vote" than voting libertarian.
After hearing Sonny Perdue talk about it this morning and seeing his new "tax" plan.....
I'm voting Libertarian all the way down the list. I'm completely done with the Republican and Democratic parties. Worthless assholes all.
Like I'm going to listen to a phone call from fucking John Ashcroft telling me how I should vote anyway.
Saying Libertarians don't believe in any government is like me saying Republicans believe in moral totalitiarianism.
My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
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some of the views on National Defense I don't understand either, because ultimately the main role of the federal government would be to protect the states and National Defense is obviously Job #1.
I guess you could call me a moderate libertarian. Yeah some of them get extreme and they are the "complete self government" people but it's really not most of us.
you are?
cross the river to the eastside
I likey. We really need to make the voting process better.
I am, too.
See for yourself:
http://www.co.orange.nc.us/elect/Ballot_Style_1_Nov06.pdf
Fascists as far as the eye can see
http://reason.com/news/show/116496.html
Yes I am. He is fiscally conservative, a true conservative, and socially liberal. He believes in state's rights over federal control. Supports stem cell research. Believes that abortion and same sex marriage should be decided on a state by state basis, not the federal government. I can go on but I'm sure you get the picture.
Anarchists believe property is theft. Libertarians believe everything
is property.
Libertarians are bosses; anarchists work for them when they run out of
other options.
Libertarians buy more guns, but anarchists use more ammo.
Libertarians ride in stretch limos; anarchists throw bricks through
their windshields.
Libertarians go shopping; anarchists go shoplifting.
Libertarians go to the police after they've been mugged; anarchists
get mugged by the police.
A libertarian wants to marry another libertarian, but only after
sleeping with enough anarchists.
Anarchists ignore the IRS; Libertarians hire accountants and attorneys
to fight them.
Libertarians think the government is trying steal the property they
rightfully own; anarchists think the government is trying to defend
property that nobody rightfully owns.
Libertarians are organized in a political party; anarchists aren't
organized in anything.
Anarchists ignore elections; Libertarians run for office, vote and
lose.
I agreed to come here today to speak on some such subject as “The Libertarian as Conservative.” To me this is so obvious that I am hard put to find something to say to people who still think libertarianism has something to do with liberty. A libertarian is just a Republican who takes drugs. I’d have preferred a more controversial topic like “The Myth of the Penile Orgasm.” But since my attendance here is subsidized by the esteemed distributor of a veritable reference library on mayhem and dirty tricks, I can’t just take the conch and go rogue. I will indeed mutilate the sacred cow which is libertarianism, as ordered, but I’ll administer a few hard lefts to the right in my own way. And I don’t mean the easy way. I could just point to the laissez-faire Trilateralism of the Libertarian Party, then leave and go look for a party. It doesn’t take long to say that if you fight fire with fire, you’ll get burned.
If that were all I came up with, somebody would up and say that the LP has lapsed from the libertarian faith, just as Christians have insisted that their behavior over the last 1900 years or so shouldn’t be held against Christianity. There are libertarians who try to retrieve libertarianism from the Libertarian Party just as there are Christians who try to reclaim Christianity from Christendom and communists (I’ve tried to myself) who try to save communism from the Communist parties and states. They (and I) meant well but we lost. Libertarianism is party-archist fringe-rightism just as socialism really is what Eastern European dissidents call “real socialism,” i.e., the real-life state-socialism of queues, quotas, corruption and coercion.
Read more...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Even if by voting Libertarian you would be supporting a reduction in the size and scope of the federal government. I respect the fact that you are pro-life but aren't there other more pressing issues facing our nation today that need immediate attention.
What "pro-abortion" stance? Most Libertarians simply do not believe there should be laws against it. That doesn't mean they think abortion is morally right.
It's funny that anarchism has taken on such a silly definition in the last 150 years. I am an anarchist that has very few qualms about voting Libertarian.
C'mon, that is simply a cop out. If you think it is murder, than you think it needs to be stopped. And you need a law to stop it. So, if you aren;t for a law against it...you are, for all practical purposes, for it.
I had forgotten about that issue with them.
Well most Libertarians that I have met feel that regardless of wether abortion is right or wrong feel that it should be dealt with on a state by state basis. Some libertarians are pro-life because they feel that it is an attack on the fetus. I guess it all boils down to wether you view the fetus as an extension of the mother or a seperate entity. The issue Libertarians agree upon is that the federal government has no right interfereing in this issue.
No, it's not a cop out. Here's why:
Personally, I believe that abortion is murder. I believe abortion is murder because I believe a fetus is a human life. However, I also believe that another reasonable person can believe that a fetus is not a human life. Above all else, I support every individual's right to act on reason. And therefore, I cannot support a law against abortion. I can only support my own volition to never be involved in an abortion.
I respect your belief that human life should be protected. But the essence of human life is reasoned choice. And therefore to sacrifice reasoned choice to protect life becomes self-defeating.
All that said, if you want a government that bans abortion, the Libertarian party is not for you. But please refrain from complaining about any government that then decides to push the non-objective morality of some on the will of others -- you've gotten what you asked for.
The more I read about Libertarian philosopy the more I'm starting to think that I'm a Libertarian, with a few exceptions, but for the most part I agree with them on many issues.
That's great. What specific issues do you have problems with?
One thing I like about the Libertarian party is that it's principled. That means most Libertarians share common principles, but the actual policy ideas that come out of those principles can be diverse so you don't have a lot of "party line" thinking.
Not that I have problem with it I just don't necessarily agree with. Welfare, now I believe in a limited welfare state, nothing like what we have now. While my understanding of libertarian principles is that they do not support any form of a welfare state. Like I said I don't have a major problem with that it's just that I disagree. For the most part I am in agreement with many Libertarian ideals.
Well, it's not tough to marry social services with Libertarianism. It's only tough to marry systematic social services with Libertarianism. That means you won't find too many Libertarians that support federal social services. Furthermore, you won't find many Libertarians that support state-level social services. But you will find many that support such services on a local level. Furthermore, most Libertarians have strong beliefs in community support. They simply believe that each individual has a right to choose their methods of support.
In Libertarianism, the individual comes first. That means holding as primary the belief that no individual should be sacrificed to society. Because of this, forced participation in a welfare state conflicts with Libertarian principles. But I have found most Libertarians to have a very strong sense of community in the true sense of the word -- a belief that all people share common interests and that no person's interests should be sacrificed to another but rather all should work together for mutual benefit.
oh, so if I believe abortion to be murder, thus wanting the same governmental laws about murder to apply to abortion then I am condoning any and all regulation and legislation of morality? A bit of a stretch...no?
Fine, whatever you say, I guess they aren't for me. You are one hell of a recruiter.
And I still think it is a cop-out. Leaving it up to the States is a decent compromise IMO.
Very well stated. Being fiscally conservative in no way means we care nothing about our fellow man.
Unless of course you are talking about abortion.
No, it's not a stretch. In effect you are saying that your morality supercedes the morality of another without offering any logical justification for why you're right and another is wrong.
It's the typical abortion debate: "abortion is murder" (reasonable) vs "abortion is not murder" (also reasonable), with both sides pretending that their argument is more sound than another. The answer is to leave it up to the individual to choose their own actions based on their reasoned morality. If you don't like abortion, don't participate in one and oppose any state system that forces you to participate. Furthermore, you have every right in the world to judge negatively those who do participate in them.
However, you cannot have a right to force those who simply hold a different morality than you to act differently without, in effect, giving them the same right.
I'm not a recruiter. And if I was, I wouldn't want to recruit someone who doesn't share the principles of the organization. I have no interests in tricking people into believing I share their ideals. What good would that do?
Obviously abortion should not be decided on a federal level. Roe V Wade was an unconsitutional ruling and should be reversed. We can certainly agree on that.