No, the legal situation around them are very different. If an addict could buy heroin at Wal-Mart for it's actual value (pennies), you would have much less violent crime surrounding heroin use and trade.
Perhaps, do you really think it would be sold for it's actual value, though?
Not so long ago a kid here stabbed another kid because he didn't want to give him a cigarette. But that's of course an exception.
Fair enough.
Perhaps, do you really think it would be sold for it's actual value, though?
Of course, but I think you're confusing "actual value" with "production cost". The actual value of something is the price the market will pay for it in a freely competitive environment.
What if? That's not part of the question. The more likely event, in actuality, is that our wages are relatively higher because of violence and thievery here. Regardless, we are not better off if we are using slave labor, nor are we better off as slaves. That isn't the question, however.
I agree that we are better off when out products are in free competition with those made by foreigners earning only a small fraction of our wages.
In other words, corporate colonisation. Economic slavery.
And then there's your own personal brand of slavery:
Anyway, who woulda thunk... I'm a liberal I thought I was somewhere in the middle, but there ya have it, I'm a leftie
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Of course, but I think you're confusing "actual value" with "production cost". The actual value of something is the price the market will pay for it in a freely competitive environment.
yea I bit. but I see what ffg is saying. I guess I couldnt morally agree that heroin should be legal. but I could say the same for booze and ciggys too, but I dont. so what ya gonna do. heroin for all!
yea I bit. but I see what ffg is saying. I guess I couldnt morally agree that heroin should be legal. but I could say the same for booze and ciggys too, but I dont. so what ya gonna do. heroin for all!
Yep, I can TOTALLY See how that would make the world a better place
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Considering the production costs and ease of entry into a free-market for these products, yes. That would be pennies-per-use, not pennies for a lifetime supply or something on a grand scale.
Considering the production costs and ease of entry into a free-market for these products, yes. That would be pennies-per-use, not pennies for a lifetime supply or something on a grand scale.
I assume thats without the "legalize and tax the hell out of it" crowd getting involved.
Certainly pollution is an aggressive act and people have every right to reject it. I have a hard time blaming only "rich individuals and corporations" (as the original question implied) for auto/truck emissions, however.
what about the ones in power holding back other technology? what about the bush administration's great scheme to lower gas prices by lowering the environmental restrictrions (which ended up saving us....fuckall)? or destroying anwr to drill for oil when just raising the current fuel efficiency standard just 3 more miles to the gallon would save us more oil than even the best estimates of anwr?
i knowyou said blame ONLY, and i agree w/ that, but i think they have a higher level of blame
take that case, in i think illinois where the guy made his own alternative fuel and the government came in and said he couldn't make his fuel for himself anymore unles he obtained a fuel manufacturing permit (or something), for which he didn't even qualify for!!
they certainly don't give the majority of ppl very many options
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Considering the production costs and ease of entry into a free-market for these products, yes. That would be pennies-per-use, not pennies for a lifetime supply or something on a grand scale.
OK, I only asked because if the prices were high, violence wouldn't necessarily drop, I think.
What if? That's not part of the question. The more likely event, in actuality, is that our wages are relatively higher because of violence and thievery here. Regardless, we are not better off if we are using slave labor, nor are we better off as slaves. That isn't the question, however.
I agree that we are better off when out products are in free competition with those made by foreigners earning only a small fraction of our wages.
You're simply assigning new qualities to these questions that aren't contained in their text.
I would not exchange goods with a rebel who was attempting to overthrow a democracy because exchange would imply an honest dealing with another. What honest dealing can I have with a violent criminal?
do you buy anything made in china?
do you buy gas?
and what about the ppl who are being paid 'only a small fraction of our wages' b/c of violence and theivery?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
what about the ones in power holding back other technology? what about the bush administration's great scheme to lower gas prices by lowering the environmental restrictrions (which ended up saving us....fuckall)? or destroying anwr to drill for oil when just raising the current fuel efficiency standard just 3 more miles to the gallon would save us more oil than even the best estimates of anwr?
i knowyou said blame ONLY, and i agree w/ that, but i think they have a higher level of blame
take that case, in i think illinois where the guy made his own alternative fuel and the government came in and said he couldn't make his fuel for himself anymore unles he obtained a fuel manufacturing permit (or something), for which he didn't even qualify for!!
they certainly don't give the majority of ppl very many options
I don't disagree with much of this, but I'm not sure if you expect me to. Do I think corporate welfare and stupid regulations are good things? No. Do I think choice and free innovation are good things? Yes.
Definitely! There are many good corporations in China, just like there are many bad ones.
do you buy gas?
Of course. But I buy gas produced from American & Canadian sources for a myriad of reasons. And my gas-use days are going to quickly come to an end period, thanks to Honda's new hydrogen car.
and what about the ppl who are being paid 'only a small fraction of our wages' b/c of violence and theivery?
Violence and theivery are certainly bad things. But just because you're being paid a small wage, doesn't mean you're being stolen from or assaulted. Just as often it means the person you're being compared against lives in a country with a minimum wage, something upheld via violence and theivery.
Definitely! There are many good corporations in China, just like there are many bad ones.
Of course. But I buy gas produced from American & Canadian sources for a myriad of reasons. And my gas-use days are going to quickly come to an end period, thanks to Honda's new hydrogen car.
Violence and theivery are certainly bad things. But just because you're being paid a small wage, doesn't mean you're being stolen from or assaulted. Just as often it means the person you're being compared against lives in a country with a minimum wage, something upheld via violence and theivery.
It would be tough to fight "unneccessary wars" absent $1 trillion in tax revenues, forced conscription, and fiat currency, yes. Libertarians stand opposed to those things, so that's a start. War, however, is a much bigger issue than dollars and soldiers, so Libertarianism alone does not necessarily preclude "unneccessary war". It would simply make it much harder to wage.
Allowing American corporations to effectly colonise small nations to do slave labor...
Libertarianism here would do little to stop American corporations from effectively colonising small nations. Libertarianism there certainly might, depending on the people involved.
Libertarianism is a political ideal, not an entire moral and economic system. So it seems a bit odd to be applying it to the vague problems you mention and certainly would not, alone, be the solution to those problems.
It would be tough to fight "unneccessary wars" absent $1 trillion in tax revenues, forced conscription, and fiat currency, yes. Libertarians stand opposed to those things, so that's a start. War, however, is a much bigger issue than dollars and soldiers, so Libertarianism alone does not necessarily preclude "unneccessary war". It would simply make it much harder to wage.
Libertarianism here would do little to stop American corporations from effectively colonising small nations. Libertarianism there certainly might, depending on the people involved.
Libertarianism is a political ideal, not an entire moral and economic system. So it seems a bit odd to be applying it to the vague problems you mention and certainly would not, alone, be the solution to those problems.
Libertarianism is a political ideal, not an entire moral and economic system. So it seems a bit odd to be applying it to the vague problems you mention and certainly would not, alone, be the solution to those problems.
Good point.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
It would be if you did a revision to many of FFG's post with a pre-emptive "In My Ideolgy" or "My ideology works like this". He doesn't come across that way, though. And whenever he is challenged he falls back into the "what value is to me? or what value is it to you?" mode.
It would be if you did a revision to many of FFG's post with a pre-emptive "In My Ideolgy" or "My ideology works like this". He doesn't come across that way, though. And whenever he is challenged he falls back into the "what value is to me? or what value is it to you?" mode.
It's a tiresome shtick.
I see that he's absolutely 100% right. And I'm joining in because I think many people blur this point and create inaccuracy due to not discerning that one detail. I am one of these people, who has not naturally recognized this until now, and I relate to the many on this board, sharing similar worldview traits, so I know the mindset, and that "we're" going wrong here. Political views are complementary to moral or economic views, and yet there is differentiation.
I believe in integration, so I recognize that the discernment he points out here, is in our understanding and comprehension with logic, and that makes a BIG difference in terms of our degree of understanding ourselves and our systems. Ultimately, though, these divisions don't really exist in reality, because a human system isn't even separate from the external system, much less the human ideals within said human. So, when we reintegrate ACCURATE logic in with the big picture where many of us have strengths, this is where "we're" going "right" and where I think farfromglorified might be less savvy in grasping.(ie. leaving morality disconnectd from human political or economic decisions)
Again, though, I think the blurring of that line has had dangerous and power-imbalanced consequences through time. I'll grant you that, farfromglorified.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I'm not anything about right and wrong. Mainly, as for my post regarding FFG's opinions (or ideologies or values, lol), I'm talking about better English, better communication.
Comments
Not so long ago a kid here stabbed another kid because he didn't want to give him a cigarette. But that's of course an exception.
Perhaps, do you really think it would be sold for it's actual value, though?
naděje umírá poslední
Fair enough.
Of course, but I think you're confusing "actual value" with "production cost". The actual value of something is the price the market will pay for it in a freely competitive environment.
In other words, corporate colonisation. Economic slavery.
And then there's your own personal brand of slavery:
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Define this please. What is "economic slavery"?
:rolleyes:
If I changed that to:
"Employees should be able to make as much as they can", would you disagree? I'd agree with that one too.
Oooppps... too late!
Anyway, who woulda thunk... I'm a liberal
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
And that value would be pennies?
naděje umírá poslední
You are advocating your libertarianism as policy, if I'm not mistaken.
It's amazing to me you don't see the fallibilty of it.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Considering the production costs and ease of entry into a free-market for these products, yes. That would be pennies-per-use, not pennies for a lifetime supply or something on a grand scale.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
what about the ones in power holding back other technology? what about the bush administration's great scheme to lower gas prices by lowering the environmental restrictrions (which ended up saving us....fuckall)? or destroying anwr to drill for oil when just raising the current fuel efficiency standard just 3 more miles to the gallon would save us more oil than even the best estimates of anwr?
i knowyou said blame ONLY, and i agree w/ that, but i think they have a higher level of blame
take that case, in i think illinois where the guy made his own alternative fuel and the government came in and said he couldn't make his fuel for himself anymore unles he obtained a fuel manufacturing permit (or something), for which he didn't even qualify for!!
they certainly don't give the majority of ppl very many options
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
OK, I only asked because if the prices were high, violence wouldn't necessarily drop, I think.
look a dragon, let's chase it!
naděje umírá poslední
Hehe...yes. Which, in all actuality, would happen.
do you buy anything made in china?
do you buy gas?
and what about the ppl who are being paid 'only a small fraction of our wages' b/c of violence and theivery?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
I don't disagree with much of this, but I'm not sure if you expect me to. Do I think corporate welfare and stupid regulations are good things? No. Do I think choice and free innovation are good things? Yes.
Definitely! There are many good corporations in China, just like there are many bad ones.
Of course. But I buy gas produced from American & Canadian sources for a myriad of reasons. And my gas-use days are going to quickly come to an end period, thanks to Honda's new hydrogen car.
Violence and theivery are certainly bad things. But just because you're being paid a small wage, doesn't mean you're being stolen from or assaulted. Just as often it means the person you're being compared against lives in a country with a minimum wage, something upheld via violence and theivery.
And true libertarianism solves all this.
Get outta here.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Solves what?
Keeping our country out of unneccessary war. Allowing American corporations to effectly colonise small nations to do slave labor...
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
It would be tough to fight "unneccessary wars" absent $1 trillion in tax revenues, forced conscription, and fiat currency, yes. Libertarians stand opposed to those things, so that's a start. War, however, is a much bigger issue than dollars and soldiers, so Libertarianism alone does not necessarily preclude "unneccessary war". It would simply make it much harder to wage.
Libertarianism here would do little to stop American corporations from effectively colonising small nations. Libertarianism there certainly might, depending on the people involved.
Libertarianism is a political ideal, not an entire moral and economic system. So it seems a bit odd to be applying it to the vague problems you mention and certainly would not, alone, be the solution to those problems.
A political ideal, and you are? A libertarian?
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I'm not a Libertarian, although their political views are closest to my own.
It would be if you did a revision to many of FFG's post with a pre-emptive "In My Ideolgy" or "My ideology works like this". He doesn't come across that way, though. And whenever he is challenged he falls back into the "what value is to me? or what value is it to you?" mode.
It's a tiresome shtick.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
What is a Libertarian?
I mean, we're all human's aren't we? Where does the role-playing begin and end?
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
I believe in integration, so I recognize that the discernment he points out here, is in our understanding and comprehension with logic, and that makes a BIG difference in terms of our degree of understanding ourselves and our systems. Ultimately, though, these divisions don't really exist in reality, because a human system isn't even separate from the external system, much less the human ideals within said human. So, when we reintegrate ACCURATE logic in with the big picture where many of us have strengths, this is where "we're" going "right" and where I think farfromglorified might be less savvy in grasping.(ie. leaving morality disconnectd from human political or economic decisions)
Again, though, I think the blurring of that line has had dangerous and power-imbalanced consequences through time. I'll grant you that, farfromglorified.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Right about what?
I'm not anything about right and wrong. Mainly, as for my post regarding FFG's opinions (or ideologies or values, lol), I'm talking about better English, better communication.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.