Climate Change Dilemna

surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
edited February 2007 in A Moving Train
You've accepted that global climate change is real and that man contributes to it. You have a finite amount of money to spend to address the issue. Youe have three options in spending your money;

1. Spend it all, 100%, on prevention or lowering of man's contribution to global climate change. This may result in millions of deaths if climate change is at the point of being irreversable as some scientists think, or if the change is very slow in being reversed as many scientists think.

2. Spend it all, 100%, on adapting to climate change. This may too result in millions of deaths, and is a poor course of action if man is the primary contributor to climate change.

3. Split your spending between prevention and adapting. Otherwise known as not putting all your eggs in one basket. This lowers your risk and is the course of action anyone with any risk management knowledge would take.

Which is the prudent path to take?

Man has a remarkable record at adapting yet I've yet to see more than a handful of scientists ask for money to be spent on adapting. The scientists behind the IPCC report seemingly want course 1. taken with no money spent on adapting to climate change.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
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Comments

  • the problem with adapting is that climate change is still occurring...fix the problem...do not fix a result of the problem.
    surferdude wrote:
    You've accepted that global climate change is real and that man contributes to it. You have a finite amount of money to spend to address the issue. Youe have three options in spending your money;

    1. Spend it all, 100%, on prevention or lowering of man's contribution to global climate change. This may result in millions of deaths if climate change is at the point of being irreversable as some scientists think, or if the change is very slow in being reversed as many scientists think.

    2. Spend it all, 100%, on adapting to climate change. This may too result in millions of deaths, and is a poor course of action if man is the primary contributor to climate change.

    3. Split your spending between prevention and adapting. Otherwise known as not putting all your eggs in one basket. This lowers your risk and is the course of action anyone with any risk management knowledge would take.

    Which is the prudent path to take?

    Man has a remarkable record at adapting yet I've yet to see more than a handful of scientists ask for money to be spent on adapting. The scientists behind the IPCC report seemingly want course 1. taken with no money spent on adapting to climate change.
    I'll dig a tunnel
    from my window to yours
  • miller8966miller8966 Posts: 1,450
    Honestly im not even worried about it. But if i were to be worried i would take option 3.
    America...the greatest Country in the world.
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    I say split the money, but put a little more into adaption. Global climate change is a natural occuring event and while mankind may have had a hand it it's severity or what not, it would still occur regardless of our actions. We should do as much as we can to protect our environment but not at the expense of providing option for a future where the weather in our regions will be drastically different.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    the problem with adapting is that climate change is still occurring...fix the problem...do not fix a result of the problem.
    But you can only fix the problem if climate change is 100% a man made problem. Are you willing to bet our survival on this very unproven theory?
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    the problem with adapting is that climate change is still occurring...fix the problem...do not fix a result of the problem.


    The problem is that you can't stop global climate change, it is a natural event. You can restrict the impact that mankind is contributing but you can not arrest the process.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • even flow?even flow? Posts: 8,066
    From the Bush way of seeing the world. If we just drop a few mini nukes on the countries that we don't get along with. Not only will they not have the need to eat up oil, but the nuclear winter which would be a mini one of course, would cool the world off enough that we would not have to worry about global warming in our time anymore. As a matter of fact with no proven theory on it. We may not have to worry at all as a species anymore.

    As long as there are two sides of the story the people in power who make their money on some of the supposed things that contribute in a big way to global warming, I can't see anything really happening that is going to be good and or productive.

    Option 3 for me if I choose from your list.
    You've changed your place in this world!
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,492
    Dude it is soooo cold here right now, this global warming is killing me.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Global Warming has inverse effects, currents shift making the air colder.. you should read a little more on global warming to get a better idea of how it would work. Infact The Day After Tomorrow explains it well!
    April 28, 2003
    May 3, 2003
    Camden NJ Sat May 27, 2006
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    Washington DC Tuesday May 30, 2006
    E. Rutherford NJ June 01, 2006
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  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,492
    Global Warming has inverse effects, currents shift making the air colder.. you should read a little more on global warming to get a better idea of how it would work. Infact The Day After Tomorrow explains it well!

    Relax, I was joking.

    And the number of errors in The Day after Tomorrow are astounding!!!
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Oh ok, lol a lot of people say that though and I'm like hello... ever watch movies!! haha

    deep love Jonathan
    April 28, 2003
    May 3, 2003
    Camden NJ Sat May 27, 2006
    Camden NJ Sun May 28, 2006
    Washington DC Tuesday May 30, 2006
    E. Rutherford NJ June 01, 2006
    E. Rutherford NJ June 03, 2006
  • Relax, I was joking.

    And the number of errors in The Day after Tomorrow are astounding!!!

    Then I guess I might need to reassess my take on asteroids that I formed after watching "Armageddon".
    War is Peace
    Freedom is Slavery
    Ignorance is Strength
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,492
    Rushlimbo wrote:
    Then I guess I might need to reassess my take on asteroids that I formed after watching "Armageddon".


    Yep, Deep Impact is where it's at.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • onelongsongonelongsong Posts: 3,517
    i'd like to add that new discoveries have been made since the initial report went into review. in greenland; meltwater is trailing down the cracks to the base and lubricating the ice; making it move faster than previously predicted. in antartica; meltwater is filling the cracks; freezing and expanding to break off large pieces of ice. according to nasa; 1250 square miles of ice broke off and disappeared in 2005. in 1997 the earths ice cover was about the size of the us. in 2003 we'd lost the equivelant of all the states east of the mississippi.
    the earths ice cover is the earths fail safe system. it reflects heat back into space. this is the importance of our ice; not just rising sea levels.

    there is no adapting. once we hit 6 to 7 degrees of temperature increase the frozen methane will be released into the atmosphere. ask any scientist that has studied the permian extinction and the discoveries of 1998 in greenland. scientists; as other professions; have specialties. for example; for almost 30 years my uncle was the top bio/chemical warfare scientist in the us. yet; his knowledge in other fields was limited. my specialty is nutritional research and proper diet to cure disease. my contribution would be that plants will die and thus the animals that eat the plants will die; the animals that eat those animals will then die. the point is; we all look at the problem from our own perspective.
  • onelongsongonelongsong Posts: 3,517
    Dude it is soooo cold here right now, this global warming is killing me.

    it's been freezing here in the deserts the last month or so. the warming shifted the jetstream pushing the cold air from the ice caps further south. thus; you have a much warmer christmas then normal. it's all relative.
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    surferdude wrote:
    You've accepted that global climate change is real and that man contributes to it. You have a finite amount of money to spend to address the issue. Youe have three options in spending your money;

    1. Spend it all, 100%, on prevention or lowering of man's contribution to global climate change. This may result in millions of deaths if climate change is at the point of being irreversable as some scientists think, or if the change is very slow in being reversed as many scientists think.

    2. Spend it all, 100%, on adapting to climate change. This may too result in millions of deaths, and is a poor course of action if man is the primary contributor to climate change.

    3. Split your spending between prevention and adapting. Otherwise known as not putting all your eggs in one basket. This lowers your risk and is the course of action anyone with any risk management knowledge would take.

    Which is the prudent path to take?

    Man has a remarkable record at adapting yet I've yet to see more than a handful of scientists ask for money to be spent on adapting. The scientists behind the IPCC report seemingly want course 1. taken with no money spent on adapting to climate change.
    Option 4. Stop printing money and giving government checks (like the american dollar, for example) any worth whatsover.

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    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    people are trying to adapt to climate change all the time ... but like dude said - you aren't fixing the problem ... this is akin to having a leak in your tire ... u can fill it up with air every few days or u can fix the leak ...

    and part of addressing climate change is debunking this myth that it will cost us money ... people are changing light bulbs and re-insulating their homes all the while saving money!! ... the problem originates where there is no regulation and competitive benefits supercede societal ones ...

    ie regulating emissions from high polluters ... if we leave it to the open market - no one is gonna make the effort because they will lose out to the competition however, if there was regulations - everyone would be playing on the same field ... this is the crux of our problem now ... and ignorance
  • onelongsongonelongsong Posts: 3,517
    polaris wrote:
    people are trying to adapt to climate change all the time ... but like dude said - you aren't fixing the problem ... this is akin to having a leak in your tire ... u can fill it up with air every few days or u can fix the leak ...

    and part of addressing climate change is debunking this myth that it will cost us money ... people are changing light bulbs and re-insulating their homes all the while saving money!! ... the problem originates where there is no regulation and competitive benefits supercede societal ones ...

    ie regulating emissions from high polluters ... if we leave it to the open market - no one is gonna make the effort because they will lose out to the competition however, if there was regulations - everyone would be playing on the same field ... this is the crux of our problem now ... and ignorance

    you are so right. i went 100% solar and the government paid for most of the system. adding what i used to pay the power company; my system was paid off in less than a year and i now enjoy free electricity. i'll have to replace batteries in another 5 years but the savings far outweigh the costs. i'm adding a wind generator in 2 months and i'm set.
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    you are so right. i went 100% solar and the government paid for most of the system. adding what i used to pay the power company; my system was paid off in less than a year and i now enjoy free electricity. i'll have to replace batteries in another 5 years but the savings far outweigh the costs. i'm adding a wind generator in 2 months and i'm set.

    the big problem is that many only look at the immediate costs ... if we factor in impact to life and health and the true cost of energy use ... combating climate change is a win-win situation ...
  • onelongsongonelongsong Posts: 3,517
    polaris wrote:
    the big problem is that many only look at the immediate costs ... if we factor in impact to life and health and the true cost of energy use ... combating climate change is a win-win situation ...

    exactly. and to those who complain they don't get enough sun to produce electricity:
    i lived in northern illinois where the sun never shines. i put in a 10 Kw wind generator and had enough power to sell back to the power company. at my farm in wisconsin i damed up a creek and built a hydroelectric generator from an article in mother earth news. because of the milking machines; it didn't support the entire farm but it did supply the house.
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    exactly. and to those who complain they don't get enough sun to produce electricity:
    i lived in northern illinois where the sun never shines. i put in a 10 Kw wind generator and had enough power to sell back to the power company. at my farm in wisconsin i damed up a creek and built a hydroelectric generator from an article in mother earth news. because of the milking machines; it didn't support the entire farm but it did supply the house.

    if u don't mind me asking - what were your costs for the wind generator? ... broken up by the main parts ... batteries, turbine and pole ...
  • onelongsongonelongsong Posts: 3,517
    polaris wrote:
    if u don't mind me asking - what were your costs for the wind generator? ... broken up by the main parts ... batteries, turbine and pole ...

    at the time; early 1980's; the cost of the generator complete was $18,000 usd. i used deep cycle batteries which ran about $70 usd a piece for a total of $840.
    my current system is 12 Kw at the panels and the complete cost was $26,000. i'm now using high tech batteries which cost $1100 each and i use 16 because i refuse to give up my waterbad and i have a big freezer. my neighbour just bought a system for $11,000 but his house is half the size. he's using the cheap deep cycle batteries which he'll probably have to replace every 3 years.
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    at the time; early 1980's; the cost of the generator complete was $18,000 usd. i used deep cycle batteries which ran about $70 usd a piece for a total of $840.
    my current system is 12 Kw at the panels and the complete cost was $26,000. i'm now using high tech batteries which cost $1100 each and i use 16 because i refuse to give up my waterbad and i have a big freezer. my neighbour just bought a system for $11,000 but his house is half the size. he's using the cheap deep cycle batteries which he'll probably have to replace every 3 years.
    Do you know what the environmental costs of the batteries are? Both in production and recycling?
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    at the time; early 1980's; the cost of the generator complete was $18,000 usd. i used deep cycle batteries which ran about $70 usd a piece for a total of $840.
    my current system is 12 Kw at the panels and the complete cost was $26,000. i'm now using high tech batteries which cost $1100 each and i use 16 because i refuse to give up my waterbad and i have a big freezer. my neighbour just bought a system for $11,000 but his house is half the size. he's using the cheap deep cycle batteries which he'll probably have to replace every 3 years.

    i heard there is new battery technology in the works that holds the same amount of power but is way quicker to charge while lasting singificantly longer (20 years +) ...
  • onelongsongonelongsong Posts: 3,517
    polaris wrote:
    i heard there is new battery technology in the works that holds the same amount of power but is way quicker to charge while lasting singificantly longer (20 years +) ...

    if you get a name or manufacturer please pm me with it. i'd greatly appreciate it.
  • onelongsongonelongsong Posts: 3,517
    surferdude wrote:
    Do you know what the environmental costs of the batteries are? Both in production and recycling?

    no but if you have the info i'd like it. i don't think my batteries are lead but i could be wrong. since lead is an element it already exists here so in my mind we're just moving it from one place to another.
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    if you get a name or manufacturer please pm me with it. i'd greatly appreciate it.

    http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/10/new_nanotechnol.php

    i don't know if they are for commerical sale yet
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    no but if you have the info i'd like it. i don't think my batteries are lead but i could be wrong. since lead is an element it already exists here so in my mind we're just moving it from one place to another.
    I wasn't asking to call you out on it. I think it's great where you're at and I'm envious. But I find the lack of science behind this part of the enviro movement quite astonishing and unscientific. Basically we're being told to follow a model that we have no proof is any better than the existing model.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    surferdude wrote:
    I wasn't asking to call you out on it. I think it's great where you're at and I'm envious. But I find the lack of science behind this part of the enviro movement quite astonishing and unscientific. Basically we're being told to follow a model that we have no proof is any better than the existing model.

    c'mon man - this is beyond belief ... if anyone wanted to capture the full embodied energy of his batteries and solar panels and whatever ... they can do that ... its just he hasn't bothered ... but at the end of the day - he is definitely reducing his footprint significantly ... it doesn't take an engineer to see this ...

    the model is reduce energy use and your footprint ... there doesn't need to be anything scientific about it ...
  • onelongsongonelongsong Posts: 3,517
    surferdude wrote:
    I wasn't asking to call you out on it. I think it's great where you're at and I'm envious. But I find the lack of science behind this part of the enviro movement quite astonishing and unscientific. Basically we're being told to follow a model that we have no proof is any better than the existing model.

    dude; i didn't take it that way at all. you brought up a good point and i would like the information. can new batteries be somehow made from old batteries? i really don't know. i'll take all the knowledge you can throw my way.
  • onelongsongonelongsong Posts: 3,517
    polaris wrote:
    http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/10/new_nanotechnol.php

    i don't know if they are for commerical sale yet

    thank you. i'm checking it out now.
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