Oh Canada!!

thankyougrandma

Buffalo River Dene Nation:
Canada Opposed the United Nations Draft Declaration of Indigenous Rights
2006-10-02


On June 29, 2006, the United Nations Human Rights Council adopted a Draft Declaration of Indigenous Rights. The Declaration affirms the right of self-determination of Indigenous Peoples, including the right to traditional territory and resources, and the right of Indigenous Peoples to oversee their own education in their own languages. It was passed by a vote of 30-2–- Russia joining Canada in opposition to the Declaration.

There are several high-profile territorial confrontations occurring in Canada today, including the standoff with the Haudenosaunee (Six Nations Confederacy) in Caledonia in southern Ontario; the encroachment of multinationals onto the Lubicon Lake First Nation in northern Alberta; the struggle of the Secwepemc people over plans to convert their territory, Skwelkwek’welt, into a ski resort in B.C.; the deforestation of the homeland of the Haida; and the marginalization of the Innu of Nitassinan.

“It is no coincidence that the Canadian government so adamantly opposes the adoption of the Draft Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples,” says Adelard Blackman, special emissary for Buffalo River Dene Nation in Northern Saskatchewan. “They believe that it will present a threat because of the power that it will give to Indigenous Peoples, especially in the area of free, prior and informed consent as it applies to lands, territories and resources.”

The people of Buffalo River Dene Nation were removed from their traditional territory in 1952, purportedly to establish the Primrose Lake Air Weapons Range. The territory contains the world’s largest oilsands deposit and Blackman believes the Canadian government knew the land was rich in natural resources. “It was a calculated move by the government and multinationals to gain control of our traditional territory and natural resources contained in it,” he says. Blackman believes the federal government fears the impact the declaration may have on land claims across Canada.

Ghislain Picard, regional chief of Quebec and Labrador, is frustrated that Canada is seen by so many as an international leader in human rights, while it continually undermines the rights of Indigenous People. “It is very disappointing, even frustrating, to see that the government of our own country has such a closed mind towards the protection of the rights of Indigenous Peoples,” he says. “All the more so that Canada pretends to be a key player on the level of human rights internationally.”

The Canadian government has been garnering some criticism from the international community regarding its stance on the declaration. The London-based foreign affairs magazine, The Economist –- hardly a left-wing publication -- lambasted Canada’s treatment of Original Peoples, stating that they “are treated with a mixture of ignorance and indifference.” Human rights organization Amnesty International has been critical holding that recognizing the human rights of the world’s Indigenous Peoples is long overdue. “It’s difficult to imagine an important issue of human rights that the governments of the world have taken more time to resolve,” said Alex Neve, secretary general of Amnesty International Canada.

On the occasion of the International Day of the World’s Indigenous on August 3, United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan noted that of the more than 370 million Indigenous Peoples living in some 70 countries, “Much remains to be done to alleviate the poverty faced by many indigenous people, to protect them against massive violations of human rights, and to safeguard against the discrimination …”

To this end, Annan sees the Declaration as “an instrument of historic significance for the advancement of the rights and dignity of the world’s indigenous peoples.”

Harper’s Indian affairs minister, Jim Prentice, cited legal conflicts between the declaration and Canadian laws as the reason for his government’s opposition. But Mary Simon, president of the Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami (Canada’s National Inuit Organization) considers this opposition “odd and unsupported,” and Liberal Indian Affairs critic Anita Neville agrees: “The government’s argument that the draft resolution may be inconsistent with Canadian laws is a non-starter.”

The Declaration of Indigenous Rights is now before the 61st session of the UN General Assembly awaiting ratification of the human rights of Indigenous Peoples.

Ahnimus

The Original Peoples of Canada do have the right to self-governance. That has never been disputed. In-fact Native languages are recognized by Universities nation-wide, regardless of how secluded they are in reality. As an example, a native reserve on the west coast called "Sliammon" has a nationally recognized language, called "Sliammon". I grew up near the reserve and our High-school taught two languages, French and Sliammon.

The requirement of a native group to be sovereign is to have a self-governing body. This is formally the Six Nations. However, in cases like Caledonia the residents denounced their government and acted outside of any governance at all. Effectively negating their standing as a sovereign entity.

The indigenous peoples of Canada do have the ability to self-governance. They have rights to their own land aswell. They do not pay federal or provincial taxes and are entitled to education, employment and social benefits outside of their reserved lands. In Caledonia the disputed land was traded to the municipality several decades ago and legal documents prove it. The native uprising there claimed such trades are not legal and the native people regardless of any circumstances ultimately have rights to all of Canada.

thankyougrandma

Ahnimus wrote:

The Original Peoples of Canada do have the right to self-governance. That has never been disputed. In-fact Native languages are recognized by Universities nation-wide, regardless of how secluded they are in reality. As an example, a native reserve on the west coast called "Sliammon" has a nationally recognized language, called "Sliammon". I grew up near the reserve and our High-school taught two languages, French and Sliammon.

The requirement of a native group to be sovereign is to have a self-governing body. This is formally the Six Nations. However, in cases like Caledonia the residents denounced their government and acted outside of any governance at all. Effectively negating their standing as a sovereign entity.

The indigenous peoples of Canada do have the ability to self-governance. They have rights to their own land aswell. They do not pay federal or provincial taxes and are entitled to education, employment and social benefits outside of their reserved lands. In Caledonia the disputed land was traded to the municipality several decades ago and legal documents prove it. The native uprising there claimed such trades are not legal and the native people regardless of any circumstances ultimately have rights to all of Canada.

Very nice exposé, but then why voting against that declaration????

Ahnimus

thankyougrandma wrote:

Very nice exposé, but then why voting against that declaration????

I don't know what the Declaration entails. Also, consider the inequality of native rights. Basically what is said, is that if you are born a native person in Canada as opposed to being born white, black, hispanic, asian, etc.. you are granted specific rights under some kind of grandfather clause.

If this were true for all races in Canada we would all be seperated by laws. As an example, I am a decendant of swiss-german, my family immigrated here from Switzerland about 100 years ago. That should make me exempt from responsibility for suppressing, oppressing or killing natives. As none of my ancestory played any part in the conquering of Canada. It also means that black people should be granted tax immunity and the ability to self-governance due to their oppression. Women should be allowed self-governance and reserved lands for their repeated oppression through history.

The most important aspect of this is the conquering of Canada by immigrants. That is the particular event all of this is based on. In almost all nations were conquering has occured the indigenous peoples are granted no rights unequal to those of other residents. Canada by it's own fault signed the Indian Act granting native peoples their own governance and land. Over the last hundred or so years this has expanded the view that modern natives own Canada or that non-natives are ultimately responsible for a 200 year old conflict.

I personally do not have a "heritage" outside of Canada. I could argue that my ancestory made good watches or celebrated Oktoberfest. However none of that affects my life today. I was born into modern Canada as a Canadian. With my birth comes an eternal debt to other people. Which by definition is racism. I believe in reperations to people directly affected by government policy. However, this should not extend 200 years into the future, to all decendants of affected people.

I've been labelled racist several times for my perspective of this arguement. That ultimately is a racist statement to me. Because I believe in equality at birth. The Indian Act of Canada imposes a birth inequality and that is perpetuated by native and non-native people today.

even flow?

Grandma: What was up with the overpass falling? Geez! If that was a rush hour happening. It would have been way worse than what it was.

thankyougrandma

even flow? wrote:

Grandma: What was up with the overpass falling? Geez! If that was a rush hour happening. It would have been way worse than what it was.

sure, it's kind of lucky that it happened in a saturday afternoon, still 5 deaths is tragic.

Seeing the conditions of roads, bridges and overpass here, i'm 100% sure it will happen again in my lifetime, in this province, hoping nobody will be under the next falling bridge or overpass.

thankyougrandma

Ahnimus wrote:

I don't know what the Declaration entails. Also, consider the inequality of native rights. Basically what is said, is that if you are born a native person in Canada as opposed to being born white, black, hispanic, asian, etc.. you are granted specific rights under some kind of grandfather clause.

If this were true for all races in Canada we would all be seperated by laws. As an example, I am a decendant of swiss-german, my family immigrated here from Switzerland about 100 years ago. That should make me exempt from responsibility for suppressing, oppressing or killing natives. As none of my ancestory played any part in the conquering of Canada. It also means that black people should be granted tax immunity and the ability to self-governance due to their oppression. Women should be allowed self-governance and reserved lands for their repeated oppression through history.

The most important aspect of this is the conquering of Canada by immigrants. That is the particular event all of this is based on. In almost all nations were conquering has occured the indigenous peoples are granted no rights unequal to those of other residents. Canada by it's own fault signed the Indian Act granting native peoples their own governance and land. Over the last hundred or so years this has expanded the view that modern natives own Canada or that non-natives are ultimately responsible for a 200 year old conflict.

I personally do not have a "heritage" outside of Canada. I could argue that my ancestory made good watches or celebrated Oktoberfest. However none of that affects my life today. I was born into modern Canada as a Canadian. With my birth comes an eternal debt to other people. Which by definition is racism. I believe in reperations to people directly affected by government policy. However, this should not extend 200 years into the future, to all decendants of affected people.

I've been labelled racist several times for my perspective of this arguement. That ultimately is a racist statement to me. Because I believe in equality at birth. The Indian Act of Canada imposes a birth inequality and that is perpetuated by native and non-native people today.

You will have to explain to me what is MODERN Canada.

I can't argue or discuss about all that you've said and i'm one who think first nation fiscal advantages should be revised to make them just like every other canadians of any nation or origin. I will try to put some thoughts here, and try to make them understandable.

History can't be erase cause we have more immigration, it doesn't matter, Canada's past and history is there to stay and no immigration argument can or should change that.

With your argumentation, you forget the fact that in Canada, there's more than a nation involved in the building of this country, so giving them autonomy wouldn't create an inequality, it would involve them in the building of MODERN Canada (oil sand revenu?), and in the history of this country, not as those who've been defeated and now assimilated, but as their own peoples who build a country with other people's nations. But to Canadian, the only nation is Canadian, which means the decendant of loyalist, the conquered nations (acadians, quebecers, every first nation) and the immigrant that arrived in these loyalist (now canadian) part of the land. Quebec nation and first nations, are just exotic things that gives canada the name of multiculturalism, when in fact the only recognize nation that build this country according to the Canadian Constitution, is the canadian one (thanks Trudeau).

Give rights and autonomy to first nations, real one, constitutional one, international one. Quebec already achives some of these on their own (with more things to come, like finally being part of the constitution), First Nation don't have the same geographic "feature", they don't all have the same language which makes it harder to get some kind of unity, as it's been seen in Quebec, so it might take longer for them to get those recognition, but it will happen soon enough, someday Canada will be modern, i don't think it is today (Unless modern means having robots cleaning up our houses).

edit: i believe it's in first nation interest, to give up some privileges that Canada gave them, and go after full rights and recognition as a nation in Canada, able to look forward for themselves and to assure the continuity of their own nations.

Ahnimus

thankyougrandma wrote:

You will have to explain to me what is MODERN Canada.

I can't argue or discuss about all that you've said and i'm one who think first nation fiscal advantages should be revised to make them just like every other canadians of any nation or origin. I will try to put some thoughts here, and try to make them understandable.

History can't be erase cause we have more immigration, it doesn't matter, Canada's past and history is there to stay and no immigration argument can or should change that.

With your argumentation, you forget the fact that in Canada, there's more than a nation involved in the building of this country, so giving them autonomy wouldn't create an inequality, it would involve them in the building of MODERN Canada (oil sand revenu?), and in the history of this country, not as those who've been defeated and now assimilated, but as their own peoples who build a country with other people's nations. But to Canadian, the only nation is Canadian, which means the decendant of loyalist, the conquered nations (acadians, quebecers, every first nation) and the immigrant that arrived in these loyalist (now canadian) part of the land. Quebec nation and first nations, are just exotic things that gives canada the name of multiculturalism, when in fact the only recognize nation that build this country according to the Canadian Constitution, is the canadian one (thanks Trudeau).

Give rights and autonomy to first nations, real one, constitutional one, international one. Quebec already achives some of these on their own (with more things to come, like finally being part of the constitution), First Nation don't have the same geographic "feature", they don't all have the same language which makes it harder to get some kind of unity, as it's been seen in Quebec, so it might take longer for them to get those recognition, but it will happen soon enough, someday Canada will be modern, i don't think it is today (Unless modern means having robots cleaning up our houses).

edit: i believe it's in first nation interest, to give up some privileges that Canada gave them, and go after full rights and recognition as a nation in Canada, able to look forward for themselves and to assure the continuity of their own nations.

Well, it seems we are in partial if not total agreeance on the Native problem. But what exactly does Quebec have to do with any of this?

Correct me if I'm wrong but Canada originally existed as seperate regions and were brought together by a contract. The story of Quebec varies little from the story of Alberta. Alberta joined Canada because it was lacking the ability to support it's self. Alberta was supported by Ontario for decades and are now claiming that they offer more to Canada than what they receive and should therefor seperate from Canada. So in other words, they just wanted a free ride until they got on their feet now they don't want to give back to Canada.

The fundamental problem is that these people aren't thinking of Canada as a whole. Quebec has more privledge in Canada than Ontario does and that is undisputable. Quebec is the only province in Canada that does not recognize English as an official language, while the remainder of Canada is forced to recognize French and label all products with it.

I've spoken with Quebec people and in my experience they are arrogant and ignorant. They tend to have a holier than thou perspective of Canada. This may be a cultural thing as I don't believe in genetic differences as such. I was born in Surrey, B.C., I spent some time in Alberta and I now live in Ontario. I don't see any differences what-so-ever in the residents outside of cultural differences. Culture means absolutely nothing to a person like me.

Is it so hard to accept that we are all citizens of Canada that deserve equal opportunity, respect and laws? The kind of attitude predominant in Six Nations, Quebec and Alberta is the kind of Attitude that will ultimately break Canada into a dozen pieces. Non-residents of those provinces, residents of Ontario, B.C. etc.. are saying "let them go". They want seperation of Canada simply to stop the bitching. Is that really what is best for us as a whole?

thankyougrandma

Ahnimus wrote:

Well, it seems we are in partial if not total agreeance on the Native problem. But what exactly does Quebec have to do with any of this?

i don't know, i now regret it seeing the level of ignorance on this subject, always forget about it.

Ahnimus wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but Canada originally existed as seperate regions and were brought together by a contract.

Canada, was a French colony, Royal Navy invade Canada (deportation and destruction of Acadie, invasion of Quebec city) and made Canada their own by siging a peace treaty with France giving Canada to the Brits, Guadeloupe to the french. Then even if dominate by a larger french population, the brit colonist manage to start a change in Canada to make it a brit colony under brit laws, systems and rules. The american revolution, helped the building of Canada, cause of the major influx of immigration from the Loyalist. Quebec people never JOINED Canada, still haven't joined today, but Quebec have to respect the Canadian constitution (even if Quebec haven't signed) because the modern Canadian supreme Court said so. How ironic.

Ahnimus wrote:

The story of Quebec varies little from the story of Alberta. Alberta joined Canada because it was lacking the ability to support it's self. Alberta was supported by Ontario for decades and are now claiming that they offer more to Canada than what they receive and should therefor seperate from Canada. So in other words, they just wanted a free ride until they got on their feet now they don't want to give back to Canada.

I don't think Alberta WANT to separate, i think you're all wrong on that paragraph, pure personal opinion, it's alright, but not facts. Quebec history vary little from Quebec history? Again your own opinion and i think you're so wrong here again.

Ahnimus wrote:

The fundamental problem is that these people aren't thinking of Canada as a whole. Quebec has more privledge in Canada than Ontario does and that is undisputable. Quebec is the only province in Canada that does not recognize English as an official language, while the remainder of Canada is forced to recognize French and label all products with it.

Fundamental problem is that Canada don't give a fuck about the fact that Quebec population is around 80% french speaking, and are in fact Canadian as much as them. Quebec english speaking peoples have more rights than any french speaking peoples west of Ottawa, if it wasn't because of the Federal govt., Canadians wouldn't give a shit about the french fact.

You want to use the victim argument, then Quebecers and every french speaking in Canada are also FORCED to recognize english label on all products, but that's part of what Canada is, not a unilingual Anglopone country, probably another miscunception you got in the National post, or the Globe and Mail, or maybe the Ottawa Citizen (depend where you are). Do you speak french by the way?

Ahnimus wrote:

I've spoken with Quebec people and in my experience they are arrogant and ignorant. They tend to have a holier than thou perspective of Canada. This may be a cultural thing as I don't believe in genetic differences as such. I was born in Surrey, B.C., I spent some time in Alberta and I now live in Ontario. I don't see any differences what-so-ever in the residents outside of cultural differences. Culture means absolutely nothing to a person like me.

what the fuck am i suppose to answer to this?????? I'm just this short of falling into the insult category, since it's the level you want to give to this discussion, watch your fucking mouth, "Quebec people and in my experience they are arrogant and ignorant".

You're quite ignorant about Quebec, you should "spoken with Quebec people" a little bit more.

Ahnimus wrote:

Is it so hard to accept that we are all citizens of Canada that deserve equal opportunity, respect and laws? The kind of attitude predominant in Six Nations, Quebec and Alberta is the kind of Attitude that will ultimately break Canada into a dozen pieces. Non-residents of those provinces, residents of Ontario, B.C. etc.. are saying "let them go". They want seperation of Canada simply to stop the bitching. Is that really what is best for us as a whole?

Nobody deny the fact that all citizens of Canada deserve equal opportunity, respect and laws. We're all Canadian citizen as you said, but we're still different, it's those difference that Canadians (in general, meech, charlottetown) don't want to acknowledge.

Canada is not a unified country, it's a dysfunctional one, but what you'd like is everyone to shut up and just accept things as they are and sign the english national anthem, but some things has never been right in this country, and some things has never been fixed, and it's not by denying all those differences and problems, that you'll soon have a unified country.

What is your solution for the ignorant and arrogant Quebec that have not signed the constitution cause they want to be recognize as a founding nation of this country? Why not say yes ok, we'll write it in since it's a fact that can't be denied? Same with first nation, that's why i brought the Quebec situation on this first nation topic, cause of the similar problem in both case.

Ahnimus

thankyougrandma wrote:

i don't know, i now regret it seeing the level of ignorance on this subject, always forget about it.

Canada, was a French colony, Royal Navy invade Canada (deportation and destruction of Acadie, invasion of Quebec city) and made Canada their own by siging a peace treaty with France giving Canada to the Brits, Guadeloupe to the french. Then even if dominate by a larger french population, the brit colonist manage to start a change in Canada to make it a brit colony under brit laws, systems and rules. The american revolution, helped the building of Canada, cause of the major influx of immigration from the Loyalist. Quebec people never JOINED Canada, still haven't joined today, but Quebec have to respect the Canadian constitution (even if Quebec haven't signed) because the modern Canadian supreme Court said so. How ironic.

I don't think Alberta WANT to separate, i think you're all wrong on that paragraph, pure personal opinion, it's alright, but not facts. Quebec history vary little from Quebec history? Again your own opinion and i think you're so wrong here again.

Fundamental problem is that Canada don't give a fuck about the fact that Quebec population is around 80% french speaking, and are in fact Canadian as much as them. Quebec english speaking peoples have more rights than any french speaking peoples west of Ottawa, if it wasn't because of the Federal govt., Canadians wouldn't give a shit about the french fact.

You want to use the victim argument, then Quebecers and every french speaking in Canada are also FORCED to recognize english label on all products, but that's part of what Canada is, not a unilingual Anglopone country, probably another miscunception you got in the National post, or the Globe and Mail, or maybe the Ottawa Citizen (depend where you are). Do you speak french by the way?

what the fuck am i suppose to answer to this?????? I'm just this short of falling into the insult category, since it's the level you want to give to this discussion, watch your fucking mouth, "Quebec people and in my experience they are arrogant and ignorant".

You're quite ignorant about Quebec, you should "spoken with Quebec people" a little bit more.

Nobody deny the fact that all citizens of Canada deserve equal opportunity, respect and laws. We're all Canadian citizen as you said, but we're still different, it's those difference that Canadians (in general, meech, charlottetown) don't want to acknowledge.

Canada is not a unified country, it's a dysfunctional one, but what you'd like is everyone to shut up and just accept things as they are and sign the english national anthem, but some things has never been right in this country, and some things has never been fixed, and it's not by denying all those differences and problems, that you'll soon have a unified country.

What is your solution for the ignorant and arrogant Quebec that have not signed the constitution cause they want to be recognize as a founding nation of this country? Why not say yes ok, we'll write it in since it's a fact that can't be denied? Same with first nation, that's why i brought the Quebec situation on this first nation topic, cause of the similar problem in both case.

Ok, so what you are saying is:

France came over and killed some natives and founded Quebec. Then the Brits came over and killed some more natives and Quebecers and founded Canada?

I know two wrongs don't make a right. But how can you say condemn the Brits for what they did when the french prior to that did the same thing?

Personally I don't sing the national anthem, I don't even know what it is. I always kept quite in class while others were singing it. Because I don't believe in nationalism. Nazi Germany and the United States are good examples of nationalism gone wrong.

I don't speak french, yet. I speak English and German. I chose to learn German for various reasons. I like the sound of it for one. I don't particularily like the sound of French. The German people have learned the lessons of nationalism the rest of us have yet to experience, so I admire their society. I also thought it is a good gateway language to others. French was on the bottom of my list of languages to learn. However, I've lost the opportunity for dozens of good jobs because I don't speak french. Recently I applied for a position of Installation and Support Specialist. I would travel to dealerships for my company and update and install our software. However, the position turns out to require bilingualism in french. Why? because I may have to travel to Quebec.

I personally don't care if it was Amerigo Vespucci or Christopher Columbus that discovered North America. It makes literally no difference in our present lives. What does make a difference is intolerance and seperation. If you want to speak french, that's your prerogative, but don't expect me to speak it aswell. I don't expect you to speak english.

Just the other day I had a telling experience with some people in Quebec. I was playing a game online and happened to join a server called "Quebec Public Server" I didn't pay any attention to the name at the time, just the number of players and the ping. After joining I noticed people speaking in a language unknown to me. I asked them what language they were speaking and they responded "French you moron!". I felt a little upset that I was being named a moron for not recognizing french. They asked me where I live and I responded "Ontario" then they said "You live in Ontario and can't recognize french, you moron!". I said "Maybe I just don't care as much about the language as you do." and I said "A friend told me people from Quebec are arrogant and ignorant, are you proving her right?" and they replied "Yes!".

Another girl I know learned french through emersion in France. When she returned to Canada she took a job answering calls from Quebec. All too often she received rude comments for not speaking proper Quebec french. The fact that she learned french at all is an accomplisment to me and shows absolute respect for Quebec. But they felt that she should have learned from Quebec.

I can't comprehend that kind of attitude. Since I started learning german I've never had someone make comments like that. German people tend to be suprised that a non-german studies their language and some make extraordinary effort to help me. They certainly don't ridicule me for improper grammar or pronounciation.

Ahnimus

Another experience was when I went to Ottawa to Parliament Hill to give a presentation in the Charles Lynch press gallery.

We were driving onto Parliament Hill and were stopped at some kind of check station. A man approached us, examined the vehicle and started speaking to us in french. Non of us understood french and tried to tell him in english. He began yelling at us something mean, but none of us understood it. After several minutes another man approached and said to us in english "pop the hood" and we did.

We couldn't understand why this person was so upset with us and clearly because of a communication problem. Non of us became upset and started yelling at him.

thankyougrandma

Ahnimus wrote:

Ok, so what you are saying is:

France came over and killed some natives and founded Quebec. Then the Brits came over and killed some more natives and Quebecers and founded Canada?

nope

Ahnimus wrote:

I know two wrongs don't make a right. But how can you say condemn the Brits for what they did when the french prior to that did the same thing?

french AND english must correct that errors, CANADA have to correct that error. My point. I just don't get yours, again.

Ahnimus wrote:

Personally I don't sing the national anthem, I don't even know what it is. I always kept quite in class while others were singing it. Because I don't believe in nationalism. Nazi Germany and the United States are good examples of nationalism gone wrong.

Class signing the national anthem???? never happened in my life, just learned something, really interesting feature.

I respect your opinion about nationalism, although i do believe in the argument that there's good and bad nationalism, you obviously choose a really bad one and one that is becoming bad (later you say how you like modern German, it's the current German nation, therefore nationalism that you like), plus i won't mix the USA and the Nazi.

Ahnimus wrote:

I don't speak french, yet. I speak English and German. I chose to learn German for various reasons. I like the sound of it for one. I don't particularily like the sound of French. The German people have learned the lessons of nationalism the rest of us have yet to experience, so I admire their society. I also thought it is a good gateway language to others. French was on the bottom of my list of languages to learn. However, I've lost the opportunity for dozens of good jobs because I don't speak french. Recently I applied for a position of Installation and Support Specialist. I would travel to dealerships for my company and update and install our software. However, the position turns out to require bilingualism in french. Why? because I may have to travel to Quebec.

You don't speak french and probably don't have to, you also have all the rights (and sure is great to do) to learn other languages and choose the languages you want, but you must respect the language that exist in this country. The fact that you don't speak french made you lost jobs opportunity, it's just normal in Canada. My modern Canada would have everyone being at least able to comminucate in english AND french.

Ahnimus wrote:

I personally don't care if it was Amerigo Vespucci or Christopher Columbus that discovered North America. It makes literally no difference in our present lives. What does make a difference is intolerance and seperation. If you want to speak french, that's your prerogative, but don't expect me to speak it aswell. I don't expect you to speak english.

hmmm, just don't speak french, it's your own loss. I speak english, obviously. I don't care who discovered what and who came first either, i'm talking about current society and how they should be recognize in the canadian constitution, today, in modern canada, the history is just the only way i have to show you how we're not exactly the same. Of course we could just give up on french and assimilated to the rest of north america, but it will never happen, past and present facts and history prove it, now it's time to deal with those difference if you want to build a country, or just continue on separate roads, with different objectives and targets. That's not intolerance or superiority, that's who you are, and who i am.

Ahnimus wrote:

Just the other day I had a telling experience with some people in Quebec. I was playing a game online and happened to join a server called "Quebec Public Server" I didn't pay any attention to the name at the time, just the number of players and the ping. After joining I noticed people speaking in a language unknown to me. I asked them what language they were speaking and they responded "French you moron!". I felt a little upset that I was being named a moron for not recognizing french. They asked me where I live and I responded "Ontario" then they said "You live in Ontario and can't recognize french, you moron!". I said "Maybe I just don't care as much about the language as you do." and I said "A friend told me people from Quebec are arrogant and ignorant, are you proving her right?" and they replied "Yes!".

Another girl I know learned french through emersion in France. When she returned to Canada she took a job answering calls from Quebec. All too often she received rude comments for not speaking proper Quebec french. The fact that she learned french at all is an accomplisment to me and shows absolute respect for Quebec. But they felt that she should have learned from Quebec.

I can't comprehend that kind of attitude. Since I started learning german I've never had someone make comments like that. German people tend to be suprised that a non-german studies their language and some make extraordinary effort to help me. They certainly don't ridicule me for improper grammar or pronounciation.

LOL (or laugh out fucking loud)

If you want me to start talking about my canadian and english encounter, i could write a book about it, i've lived in Ottawa, ordering a subway in french is like a crime near the Corel center, i don't make a general comment about CANADIAN because of these idiots working at this Subway, or because of that idiot in school talking about how Quebecers should have been assimilated, or because of the idiots on this message board saying that Quebecers and all french are not intelligent, cause they're french (where are you Barroom?) i could write a book about the peoples i know who know someone who know someone in Alberta blablabla, geez wake up man, you can't generalize about a whole province or nation, because of some stuffs you've heard by a friend or experienced on a online gaming site. What the fuck? anyway i don't know where it's heading...

thankyougrandma

Ahnimus wrote:

Another experience was when I went to Ottawa to Parliament Hill to give a presentation in the Charles Lynch press gallery.

We were driving onto Parliament Hill and were stopped at some kind of check station. A man approached us, examined the vehicle and started speaking to us in french. Non of us understood french and tried to tell him in english. He began yelling at us something mean, but none of us understood it. After several minutes another man approached and said to us in english "pop the hood" and we did.

We couldn't understand why this person was so upset with us and clearly because of a communication problem. Non of us became upset and started yelling at him.

and what's your point???

Ahnimus

thankyougrandma wrote:

and what's your point???

The point is I've yet to have a decent conversation with someone from Quebec. Not including the people I work with, obviously because we don't discuss anything besides work.

I don't understand what exactly your point is. Why doesn't Quebec sign the constitution? Is Quebec afraid of it?

And, uh, why don't you order a subway in Ottawa in english? Ontario is after all an english speaking province. I can't go to Quebec and order a sub in english, can I? I am expected to speak french if I am in Quebec.

You don't want to accept that in Canada most people and provinces speak english and if you want to go to those places you pretty well have to speak english, with Ottawa being the major exception. In my experience french comes before english in Ottawa.

I've never been to Quebec and I don't plan on going there, for one simple reason, I don't understand french.

One Song Glory

Ahnimus wrote:

The point is I've yet to have a decent conversation with someone from Quebec. Not including the people I work with, obviously because we don't discuss anything besides work.

I don't understand what exactly your point is. Why doesn't Quebec sign the constitution? Is Quebec afraid of it?

And, uh, why don't you order a subway in Ottawa in english? Ontario is after all an english speaking province. I can't go to Quebec and order a sub in english, can I? I am expected to speak french if I am in Quebec.

You don't want to accept that in Canada most people and provinces speak english and if you want to go to those places you pretty well have to speak english, with Ottawa being the major exception. In my experience french comes before english in Ottawa.

I've never been to Quebec and I don't plan on going there, for one simple reason, I don't understand french.

I live in Ottawa, and my best friend is originally from Quebec. Most people in Quebec DO speak some sort of English, for many it is their first language, and I don't really understand how you didn't have to learn French in school. I had to take it from grades 1-9, and then I continued all through high school. I've been to France and Quebec and I can personally say that if you speak even a little French, they're usually grateful that you're making an effort. I've met MANY nice Francophones and Quebecois are no different. If Canada is bilingual, Francophones should NOT have to speak English in the nation's capital, and you are not required to speak French in Quebec either. Don't judge a place you've never been to. You may have encountered French Canadians before, but you don't appear very knowledgeable on the subject.

And your experience with French in Ottawa is limited; it's not entirely valid unless you've spent a lengthy amount of time here, long enough to understand the city and where the different cultures stand.

One Song Glory

double post.

Ahnimus

One Song Glory wrote:

I live in Ottawa, and my best friend is originally from Quebec. Most people in Quebec DO speak some sort of English, for many it is their first language, and I don't really understand how you didn't have to learn French in school. I had to take it from grades 1-9, and then I continued all through high school. I've been to France and Quebec and I can personally say that if you speak even a little French, they're usually grateful that you're making an effort. I've met MANY nice Francophones and Quebecois are no different. If Canada is bilingual, Francophones should NOT have to speak English in the nation's capital, and you are not required to speak French in Quebec either. Don't judge a place you've never been to. You may have encountered French Canadians before, but you don't appear very knowledgeable on the subject.

And your experience with French in Ottawa is limited; it's not entirely valid unless you've spent a lengthy amount of time here, long enough to understand the city and where the different cultures stand.

I must be missing the point.

When I go to Parliament Hill I shouldn't have to know how to speak french either. Considering that Canada is predominantly english, it would be unadvisable to have our parliament speaking in a language most of us don't understand.

I did attend french class in school, but as school is limited in it's ability to teach, I never retained any french and failed the class repeatedly. Something to do with my desire to learn the language and my inability to make the sounds properly. I was mostly failed for not using the proper accent. Which just made me dislike the language even more.

I don't actually know anyone personally that speaks french fluently if at all. I am from the West Coast where more people speak mandorin and cantonese than french. In Ontario, in my experience, more people speak Hindu or Arabic natively than French. I would argue more native spanish speakers live here than native french speakers. Since most people in Quebec do speak english, is it simply a pride issue? I'm not really getting the point of Quebecs debate, except that they can't order a Sub in french when they are in Ottawa. But when I was there I saw several buildings that read "Le Bay" and none that read "The Bay" or their english equivelants.

thankyougrandma

Ahnimus wrote:

The point is I've yet to have a decent conversation with someone from Quebec. Not including the people I work with, obviously because we don't discuss anything besides work.

I don't understand what exactly your point is. Why doesn't Quebec sign the constitution? Is Quebec afraid of it?

And, uh, why don't you order a subway in Ottawa in english? Ontario is after all an english speaking province. I can't go to Quebec and order a sub in english, can I? I am expected to speak french if I am in Quebec.

You don't want to accept that in Canada most people and provinces speak english and if you want to go to those places you pretty well have to speak english, with Ottawa being the major exception. In my experience french comes before english in Ottawa.

I've never been to Quebec and I don't plan on going there, for one simple reason, I don't understand french.

Wow, listen dude, i have nothing more to discuss with you, at least when discussing those issues with peoples like Surferdude or Rockin or Reborn, i get a feeling of discussion, and a feeling we can all learn from each others. I get nothing to get from a discussion with you, you sound like a little whiny poor little kid, you're ignorance is everywhere : "I don't understand what exactly your point is. Why doesn't Quebec sign the constitution? Is Quebec afraid of it?" damn it's not even a point i've made, it's a fact about Canadian history, go back to educate yourself about it. Go read about the two Quebec referendum and the two federal accord that failed, go get a clue for your own self interest.

Also you seem to be over your own business about "french speaking people" and you're acting like being part of a superior race and acting condescendant towards everyone speaking french (the same as you did in those first nations thread, funny relation), look i'm french speaking, i've encountered more french speaking idiots than you'll ever do in your life, i have no lessons to get from you about these peoples, i got my nose broken, insulted and whatever by french speaking people, i'm also one of them, you show how limited you are in your judment by making all the french sound bad, and not even saying that the same happen by english speaking people, just go live your own life not coming to Quebec if you're afraid of coming here, i know some people on this board not talking french who came to Quebec and had a blast, it's your own ignorant loss.

Ahnimus

thankyougrandma wrote:

Wow, listen dude, i have nothing more to discuss with you, at least when discussing those issues with peoples like Surferdude or Rockin or Reborn, i get a feeling of discussion, and a feeling we can all learn from each others. I get nothing to get from a discussion with you, you sound like a little whiny poor little kid, you're ignorance is everywhere : "I don't understand what exactly your point is. Why doesn't Quebec sign the constitution? Is Quebec afraid of it?" damn it's not even a point i've made, it's a fact about Canadian history, go back to educate yourself about it. Go read about the two Quebec referendum and the two federal accord that failed, go get a clue for your own self interest.

Also you seem to be over your own business about "french speaking people" and you're acting like being part of a superior race and acting condescendant towards everyone speaking french (the same as you did in those first nations thread, funny relation), look i'm french speaking, i've encountered more french speaking idiots than you'll ever do in your life, i have no lessons to get from you about these peoples, i got my nose broken, insulted and whatever by french speaking people, i'm also one of them, you show how limited you are in your judment by making all the french sound bad, and not even saying that the same happen by english speaking people, just go live your own life not coming to Quebec if you're afraid of coming here, i know some people on this board not talking french who came to Quebec and had a blast, it's your own ignorant loss.

I don't recall saying all those things about French people. If that's your interpretation of it, I'm sorry you took offense. But then again, it's not my fault you interpreted it that way.

I have nothing against french people. I just don't understand the problem and since you can't explain it, I guess it's not that big of a deal.

As for english people, they are fucking pricks too. But the only one to ever criticize the way I speak english was a substitute teacher from England. He insisted that a garbage can was properly called a "rubbish bin" and insisted the students in his class use "proper english" but it's not proper Canadian English. So I personally don't give a shit what that doorknob thinks.

Personally, I've learned that English is a very bad language. It's quite complicated and difficult to learn. Maybe with the exception of french. I've heard many people that have learned both say English was much easier than french. But regardless, English has the momentum of a widely understood universal language. Is it such a crime to expect it to evolve into quite possibly "The Universal Language"? Would it be a bad thing if everyone spoke the same language and we were able to communicate? Then when I apply for a job I'm not turned down because I don't speak french or spanish? I personally feel that one language is a good thing and English has the momentum to become it. I welcome it as our one language.

That doesn't mean people can't speak french. They can talk in 0s and 1s for all I care. I'd have a better chance at understanding them if they spoke in binary, as sad as that sounds.

One Song Glory

Ahnimus wrote:

I don't recall saying all those things about French people. If that's your interpretation of it, I'm sorry you took offense. But then again, it's not my fault you interpreted it that way.

I have nothing against french people. I just don't understand the problem and since you can't explain it, I guess it's not that big of a deal.

As for english people, they are fucking pricks too. But the only one to ever criticize the way I speak english was a substitute teacher from England. He insisted that a garbage can was properly called a "rubbish bin" and insisted the students in his class use "proper english" but it's not proper Canadian English. So I personally don't give a shit what that doorknob thinks.

Personally, I've learned that English is a very bad language. It's quite complicated and difficult to learn. Maybe with the exception of french. I've heard many people that have learned both say English was much easier than french. But regardless, English has the momentum of a widely understood universal language. Is it such a crime to expect it to evolve into quite possibly "The Universal Language"? Would it be a bad thing if everyone spoke the same language and we were able to communicate? Then when I apply for a job I'm not turned down because I don't speak french or spanish? I personally feel that one language is a good thing and English has the momentum to become it. I welcome it as our one language.

That doesn't mean people can't speak french. They can talk in 0s and 1s for all I care. I'd have a better chance at understanding them if they spoke in binary, as sad as that sounds.

It is a known fact that English is THE hardest language to learn. It will never become the universal language that everyone is expected to understand, even if it gets close to it. The fact is, you're trying to lay blame to French people for making you feel as if you should speak their language, while you're basically telling them to welcome The Coming Of The English Universe. Again, you are not expected to speak only French anywhere in Canada, and regardless of the fact that most Canadians speak English, it is also an official language here and should be treated as such. French is not the most difficult language to learn, as you have blindly stated above, but English is. It has been proven. Now please, give it a rest.

Ahnimus

One Song Glory wrote:

It is a known fact that English is THE hardest language to learn. It will never become the universal language that everyone is expected to understand, even if it gets close to it. The fact is, you're trying to lay blame to French people for making you feel as if you should speak their language, while you're basically telling them to welcome The Coming Of The English Universe. Again, you are not expected to speak only French anywhere in Canada, and regardless of the fact that most Canadians speak English, it is also an official language here and should be treated as such. French is not the most difficult language to learn, as you have blindly stated above, but English is. It has been proven. Now please, give it a rest.

How can you prove that one language is more difficult to learn that others? Don't you think Cantonese is pretty hard to learn? Have you ever tried to learn it?

English is not an official language in Quebec.

So, you think we should not have a universal language? Or should we reverse the spread of english and make french the universal language?

And, I'm still not understanding how any of this has anything to do with indigenous peoples. Quebec is not an indigenous province, nor are Quebecois indigenous peoples.