“Kyoto is a socialist scheme to suck money out of wealth-producing nation"

Last Exodus

thankyougrandma wrote:

These are the great wise words of Canada Prime Minister, Stephen Harper. He put those ridiculous ads against Dion, the Liberals gave this letter to the medias, i think we'll be up for a nice political season...

---

Harper letter dismissed Kyoto a money-sucking socialist scheme
Alexander Panetta, The Canadian Press
Published: Tuesday, January 30, 2007
OTTAWA - A prime minister who now promises to fight climate change once ridiculed the Kyoto accord as a money-sucking socialist scheme and said he would battle to defeat it.

Stephen Harper derided the global treaty and questioned the science of climate change in a 2002 fundraising letter sent to members of his now-defunct Canadian Alliance party....
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=0de3608c-9f8f-49f4-bb52-bf3fcd9aa3a5&k=71162

I think this guy might be on to something here...

Ebizzie

surferdude wrote:

"The targets set are a joke - easily met (as anyone who cares can see overseas)". And just how self reliant is Europe? Do they produce the oil they consume? No. Do they produce enough food to feed themselves? No. Do they have any natural resources left in order to have any type of industry without importing goods? No. Do they profit from Kyoto by having designed a system that unfairly punishes the producing nation and not the consuming nation? Yes. Are they are high consuming and low producing area? Yes. Do uneducated people hold Europe up as a role model when they're not? Yes. Is it silly? Yes.

great post, dude.

Kann

surferdude wrote:

"The targets set are a joke - easily met (as anyone who cares can see overseas)". And just how self reliant is Europe? Do they produce the oil they consume? No. Do they produce enough food to feed themselves? No. Do they have any natural resources left in order to have any type of industry without importing goods? No. Do they profit from Kyoto by having designed a system that unfairly punishes the producing nation and not the consuming nation? Yes. Are they are high consuming and low producing area? Yes. Do uneducated people hold Europe up as a role model when they're not? Yes. Is it silly? Yes.

The most interesting achievement of Kyoto is actually to have a global response to global warming. A starting point, to show we could act on the issue on an international level, not locally. Seems we just can't and that's too bad.

As for Kyoto punishing producing nations, the protocol was part of a debate, it took time to get drafted, and the participating countries could put limitations in the protocol. Some countries just didn't want to participate at the time and thus didn't have a say in the protocol. That maybe why Kyoto seems unfair.
And finally, it is possible to be a producing nation without wasting ressources.
I'm sure if you have a look at the top 20 countries responsible for CO2 emissions (and that's an example) it doens't completely seem logic if you look at the population + economic growth. And I'm not just bashing the US, actually all the occidental countries up there. And that's a reason why Kyoto could have been useful.

Ebizzie

Kann wrote:

The most interesting achievement of Kyoto is actually to have a global response to global warming. A starting point, to show we could act on the issue on an international level, not locally. Seems we just can't and that's too bad.

This is exactly Harper's point. Why would we want to involve some bureaucratic monster into an already ugly nightmare? The Kyoto maneuver is extremely socialist in nature simply due to government regulation, but not just any governing body, a fucking GLOBAL governing body. That's a big problem. It's like asking the UN to resolve the Israeli/Palestinian conflict...they just can't fucking do it.

If you want global action then it's time to tell your governments to stop trading with nations who refuse to respect the environment. Stop yourself from buying those products. There are plenty of ways to apply pressure to polluting nations without coercing them to join some global government. Kyoto gets right to the core of how the world works, economic production. Handing carte blanche powers to a global government to regulate domestic production is a socialist's wet dream. The rest of us ain't bitin'.

polaris

surferdude wrote:

"The targets set are a joke - easily met (as anyone who cares can see overseas)". And just how self reliant is Europe? Do they produce the oil they consume? No. Do they produce enough food to feed themselves? No. Do they have any natural resources left in order to have any type of industry without importing goods? No. Do they profit from Kyoto by having designed a system that unfairly punishes the producing nation and not the consuming nation? Yes. Are they are high consuming and low producing area? Yes. Do uneducated people hold Europe up as a role model when they're not? Yes. Is it silly? Yes.

kyoto is a protocol about the future ... not about the past ... was europe perfect enviro citizens in the past - probably not ... are they gonna be in the future - who knows ... the point being is that they put in place plans to reduce emissions - and many will meet their targets ...

for all your questions about europe - how does canada and the us fare?? ... poorly - and we don't have any plan to reduce emissions ...

thanks for calling me uneducated ... u continue to post articles from botanists who lie and i'll continue to try and do my part ...

thankyougrandma

Almost forgot about this thread... it's hilarious to read people pointing fingers and saying it can't work cause others are not involved. Then it's easy, the problem is not the accord, it's those who refuse to be involved, so blame them instead of blaming the accord. The accord is just the first step, imagine when the "socialist scheme" will try to go further. But anyway i'm not knowledgeable in this weather changing topic, just a witness...

Environment is not important anyway, money is... but money comes from a tree, right?

bubbamackdaddy69

Well nobody likes to listen to me but again I find the Kyoto protocol quite 1 sided.
I agree as with many people that we should be cleaner and respect our environment more but the point that alot of Kyoto believers tend to always say is the whole Global Warming aspect and that the world is gonna end is just plain stupid. Earth is like a billion years old..I'm sure back then there was warming periods,periods of time when there were alot of hurricanes, etc..
Remember back in the 70's when we had the Global Cooling thing going on? And the Medieval warm period from I think the 10-14th century and then after that the Little ice age etc...
And I think I read somewhere that the average Global temperature now is something like 72F but a 100 years ago it was 78F ..
Anyhow my point is that we all should be careful about our environment regardless but this Kyoto, left wing crap and media brainwash is fucked

By the way I'm a conservative and like and voted for Harper...lol...but NO..I do not like BUSH

surferdude

polaris wrote:

kyoto is a protocol about the future ...

Kyoto is about economics and economic interests, just like every international treaty or accord. Do you think European nations would have signed onto Kyoto if it punished them, the consuming nations? I think not. The European nations looked after their own economic concerns first then worried about the environment as an after thought.

At it's heart Kyoto is a good idea, but just because marriage is a good idea doesn't mean you should marry the first person to come along. The Liberal party was stupid in having Canada sign the accord as it stands. But the liberal party was, as always, more concerned with the optics of doing something than doing the right thing.

bubbamackdaddy69

surferdude wrote:

Kyoto is about economics and economic interests, just like every international treaty or accord. Do you think European nations would have signed onto Kyoto if it punished them, the consuming nations? I think not. The European nations looked after their own economic concerns first then worried about the environment as an after thought.

At it's heart Kyoto is a good idea, but just because marriage is a good idea doesn't mean you should marry the first person to come along. The Liberal party was stupid in having Canada sign the accord as it stands. But the liberal party was, as always, more concerned with the optics of doing something than doing the right thing.

Good point

polaris

surferdude wrote:

Kyoto is about economics and economic interests, just like every international treaty or accord. Do you think European nations would have signed onto Kyoto if it punished them, the consuming nations? I think not. The European nations looked after their own economic concerns first then worried about the environment as an after thought.

At it's heart Kyoto is a good idea, but just because marriage is a good idea doesn't mean you should marry the first person to come along. The Liberal party was stupid in having Canada sign the accord as it stands. But the liberal party was, as always, more concerned with the optics of doing something than doing the right thing.

i'm pretty sure european (generalized over a continent) would have set targets for sure ... kyoto at the heart is NOT about economics ... its about setting targets for emissions control in a world that is only concerned about economics ...

the reality is that without targets - no gov't is going to do anything ... if the liberals are only interested in optics - what does it make the conservatives?? ... they didn't give a rats ass until the people rose up ...

at the end of the day - conservatives want to protect economic interests at all costs but are not willing to pay the true price for that asset ... if we want to extract oil and sell it to the world - well, people better pay the true cost for it ...

thankyougrandma

bubbamackdaddy69 wrote:

Well nobody likes to listen to me but again I find the Kyoto protocol quite 1 sided.
I agree as with many people that we should be cleaner and respect our environment more but the point that alot of Kyoto believers tend to always say is the whole Global Warming aspect and that the world is gonna end is just plain stupid. Earth is like a billion years old..I'm sure back then there was warming periods,periods of time when there were alot of hurricanes, etc..
Remember back in the 70's when we had the Global Cooling thing going on? And the Medieval warm period from I think the 10-14th century and then after that the Little ice age etc...
And I think I read somewhere that the average Global temperature now is something like 72F but a 100 years ago it was 78F ..
Anyhow my point is that we all should be careful about our environment regardless but this Kyoto, left wing crap and media brainwash is fucked

By the way I'm a conservative and like and voted for Harper...lol...but NO..I do not like BUSH

Calling Kyoto a left wing thing is just bullshit, Kyoto might be recognize more by left wing peoples but it's not a "socialist" project, it's just an easy way to say it's a bad idea in a political fashion.

But i agree that the communication should be done in another way, trying to scare the shit out of people is not really the way to go, also if they would be trying to sell the fact that we need to reduce pollution instead of stopping global warming (which will always be dispute), it would be easier to defend Kyoto or any other accord of this genre.

Anyway, reduce your personal pollution emission, and that's fine with me, have govt. make regulation for industry to reduce pollution emission, and that's fine with me, have the govt. stop the funding of polluting industries, and that's fine with me (example in Canada would mean that Hydro Quebec could finally see some federal investment, and the Oil industry would have to find another funding sources). They should stop talking about global warming and how we'll be submerged in the Atlantic Ocean before 2100, that's not helping at all. I'd just like to see some efficient environment policies, and stop to hear about how it's not real, or how we'll do this and that. Govt. must show the way in my opinion, industry and individuals must follow...

polaris

bubbamackdaddy69 wrote:

Well nobody likes to listen to me but again I find the Kyoto protocol quite 1 sided.
I agree as with many people that we should be cleaner and respect our environment more but the point that alot of Kyoto believers tend to always say is the whole Global Warming aspect and that the world is gonna end is just plain stupid. Earth is like a billion years old..I'm sure back then there was warming periods,periods of time when there were alot of hurricanes, etc..
Remember back in the 70's when we had the Global Cooling thing going on? And the Medieval warm period from I think the 10-14th century and then after that the Little ice age etc...
And I think I read somewhere that the average Global temperature now is something like 72F but a 100 years ago it was 78F ..
Anyhow my point is that we all should be careful about our environment regardless but this Kyoto, left wing crap and media brainwash is fucked

By the way I'm a conservative and like and voted for Harper...lol...but NO..I do not like BUSH

dude ... not that your points aren't valid ... they are just the same ones that all conservatives have used in the past - they are flawed tho - climate change is real, it's a fact ... your man harper has changed his tune ... consider that ...

RockinInCanada

thankyougrandma wrote:

Calling Kyoto a left wing thing is just bullshit, Kyoto might be recognize more by left wing peoples but it's not a "socialist" project, it's just an easy way to say it's a bad idea in a political fashion.

But i agree that the communication should be done in another way, trying to scare the shit out of people is not really the way to go, also if they would be trying to sell the fact that we need to reduce pollution instead of stopping global warming (which is always disputable), it would be easier to defend Kyoto or any other accord of this genre.

Anyway, reduce your personal pollution emission, and that's fine with me, have govt. make regulation for industry to reduce pollution emission, and that's fine with me, have the govt. stop the funding of polluting industries, and that's fine with me (example in Canada would mean that Hydro Quebec could finally see some federal investment, and the Oil industry would have to find another funding sources). They should stop talking about global warming and how we'll be submerged in the Atlantic Ocean before 2100, that's not helping at all. I'd just like to see some efficient environment policies, and stop to hear about how it's not real, or how we'll do this and that. Govt. must show the way in my opinion, industry and individuals must follow...

I hear the other three parties are going to push through the Kyoto agenda...good for them.....BTW will re-itereate again it is POSSIBLE to do these things economically...

RockinInCanada

bubbamackdaddy69 wrote:

Well nobody likes to listen to me but again I find the Kyoto protocol quite 1 sided.
I agree as with many people that we should be cleaner and respect our environment more but the point that alot of Kyoto believers tend to always say is the whole Global Warming aspect and that the world is gonna end is just plain stupid. Earth is like a billion years old..I'm sure back then there was warming periods,periods of time when there were alot of hurricanes, etc..
Remember back in the 70's when we had the Global Cooling thing going on? And the Medieval warm period from I think the 10-14th century and then after that the Little ice age etc...
And I think I read somewhere that the average Global temperature now is something like 72F but a 100 years ago it was 78F ..
Anyhow my point is that we all should be careful about our environment regardless but this Kyoto, left wing crap and media brainwash is fucked

By the way I'm a conservative and like and voted for Harper...lol...but NO..I do not like BUSH

And the 100+ (much more than 100) scientists that say something happening are also Liberal fear mongeres too then...I love when economists take precedent over scientific knowledge...what amazes me more is people who take that side.....

bubbamackdaddy69

thankyougrandma wrote:

Calling Kyoto a left wing thing is just bullshit, Kyoto might be recognize more by left wing peoples but it's not a "socialist" project, it's just an easy way to say it's a bad idea in a political fashion.

But i agree that the communication should be done in another way, trying to scare the shit out of people is not really the way to go, also if they would be trying to sell the fact that we need to reduce pollution instead of stopping global warming (which will always be dispute), it would be easier to defend Kyoto or any other accord of this genre.

Anyway, reduce your personal pollution emission, and that's fine with me, have govt. make regulation for industry to reduce pollution emission, and that's fine with me, have the govt. stop the funding of polluting industries, and that's fine with me (example in Canada would mean that Hydro Quebec could finally see some federal investment, and the Oil industry would have to find another funding sources). They should stop talking about global warming and how we'll be submerged in the Atlantic Ocean before 2100, that's not helping at all. I'd just like to see some efficient environment policies, and stop to hear about how it's not real, or how we'll do this and that. Govt. must show the way in my opinion, industry and individuals must follow...

Ok the left wing thing you may have a point..lol.. just ranting and I do agree that yes we should all as individuals and as corporations try to reduce pollution and such but I hate the whole Global Warming frenzy people are going through right now and panicking.. Like I said over the billions of years that Earth has been kicking around all of this has happened numerous of times..It's cycles that the earth goes through..

thankyougrandma

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

I hear the other three parties are going to push through the Kyoto agenda...good for them.....BTW will re-itereate again it is POSSIBLE to do these things economically...

as i said, it's time to act, but at the parliament they're still talking. I don't know about all the province's plan, but i sure know the Quebec have an extensive plan on the table, i mean on hold, waiting for the Federal to act, it's a non-sense... and i'm sure the same is happening in other provinces.

bubbamackdaddy69

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

And the 100+ (much more than 100) scientists that say something happening are also Liberal fear mongeres too then...I love when economists take precedent over scientific knowledge...what amazes me more is people who take that side.....

Come on....lol....and how about all the other scientist that totally disagree with all that Kyoto and Global Warming stuff ? It goes both ways...
So the scientist(which are alot of them) that don't buy into the Global warming (crap) don't have the scientific knowledge then?

Anyways I hate to argue but my point is not that we shouldn't be cleaner and better to our environment..not at all..
It's the Global Warming scare that's gonna end the world that makes me laugh..
Say we get Global Cooling in 30 years...everybody gonna panic and say we are going to freeze to death....lol

thankyougrandma

bubbamackdaddy69 wrote:

Ok the left wing thing you may have a point..lol.. just ranting and I do agree that yes we should all as individuals and as corporations try to reduce pollution and such but I hate the whole Global Warming frenzy people are going through right now and panicking.. Like I said over the billions of years that Earth has been kicking around all of this has happened numerous of times..It's cycles that the earth goes through..

And that's an argument that we hear a lot of time, but there's no argument that goes in the "we should pollute more" way...

bubbamackdaddy69

thankyougrandma wrote:

And that's an argument that we hear a lot of time, but there's no argument that goes in the "we should pollute more" way...

I know I know..understand where you're coming from...We definetly shouldn't polute more

thankyougrandma

polaris wrote:

at the end of the day - conservatives want to protect economic interests at all costs but are not willing to pay the true price for that asset ... if we want to extract oil and sell it to the world - well, people better pay the true cost for it ...

Yeah, the Oil industry bring a lot of cash, which is great, but this cash should be re-invested in the oil sand treatment system, right now it's destroying Alberta environment (fresh water use, forest destroy, air pollution, alouette...) and it makes the whole govt. shaky about establishing hard environment policies, but who knows who are Harper's major financial contributors... hehe.

Why can't he make it provincial base then, fund the provinces who want to reduce their emission, and leave those who don't alone, with the pollution revenues benefits that comes with it, to each their own. That should be how the Canada Federation works...