Nader:B prepared to be very disappointed..

decides2dream

Collin wrote:

Speech was August 11, 2008.

as i already stated, i had not watched the clip...thus had no idea. and if it's from august, why'd the OP wait until now to post?

Pj_gurl wrote:

Whoa whoa whoa....Get off your soap box with me. Right from the outset i have been outspoken on my view that Third Party candidates should be involved in the debates and have fair access to the media.

I'd love to see Nader on the spot. He says all the right things, and he talks about what we should do, but i honestly don't think he has any plan as to how he would follow through with what he is saying. Anyone can come out and say 'we should do this', but he never says how he would. The worst thing about Ralph Nader is that he has become irrelevant. He has done nothing to create a viable political alternative to the GOP and Dems, nor to build support for his positions among the electorate. Anyone could have predicted his position on the war, and nobody cared, because he has no effective base of support. His positions on the issues, no matter how good they sound, are useless because he has done nothing to achieve the power to implement them.

I've given the benefit of the doubt to Nader, and believed his intention of entering the election was primarily an attempt to structurally change the electoral process from a two-party system to a multi-candidate type of system, but the problem with Nader, and what makes it impossible to take his candidacy seriously, is that he himself puts forth the image that he just wants attention for being a spoiler rather than a serious candidate. again running for president or makaing . For all the accolades he get's for his progressive views, what good are they if he doesn't even make them known? He does nothing for the progressive cause as far as I can see, and instead works against it with these so-called presidential bids. So i'll say it again, maybe his real failing is not being able to gain himself any publicity unless he's making himself a last minute candidate for president OR coming out the day after the election making controversial comments.

some very solid points made. i won't rehash the whole issues of nader, i think we all have expressed our views on the cadidate often enough. obviously, it comes down to what you want, who you truly believe in AND believe can actually implement and affect change. now, the election is over...so nader in this instance is a moot point, no? not saying his ideas are invalid....but if you have no chance in implementing or influencing, it doesn't much matter..........

MrBrian

decides2dream wrote:

as i already stated, i had not watched the clip...thus had no idea. and if it's from august, why'd the OP wait until now to post?
..........

Because the points are still pertinent in regard to what direction Obama is going now, and what he is doing and saying.

The headline is 'be prepared to be very disappointed by Obama'
It would help if you watched the clip, it's not long, and comment on it.

Even if you supported Obama before he was elected, his latest moves in regard to his choices and his latest lack of moves in other issues are disappointing.

Well, for some anyway. How about for you? Are you happy he picked people who support the Iraq war? Israel blindly? Patriot Act? Are you happy that he is still saying propaganda in regard to Russia and Iran?...

Maybe you are not, maybe you support those things, maybe you just dont care? I dont know.

But if I supported someone who spoke of 'change' and a 'new direction'..I'd be pretty disappointed with that person right now.

flywallyfly

VictoryGin wrote:

except for a few people on the pearl jam message board, no one does care! most people in the real world actually care about getting this country back together. jesus christ. you see, people have to do real work now, not hide behind the safety of their computer screens, jerking it to a washed up nader, who has made a complete idiot of himself and his legacy. for the last time, nader has been around long enough, and ran for president many times; if people actually gave a shit about his "valid points without questionable wordplay," they would have listened. and they would have acted. obviously we've seen what can come from grassroots organization---we elected barack obama to the presidency.

Amen.

freindlyfired

Doesnt the current economic crisis validate what Nader has been saying for the past 13 years?

granted most people didnt and dont listen but thats not the point.

I can refresh your memories if you like...

Collin

decides2dream wrote:

as i already stated, i had not watched the clip...thus had no idea. and if it's from august, why'd the OP wait until now to post?

You said it's obvious they wouldn't give him airtime after the elections. I'm merely pointing out that the video was from during the elections precisely because you didn't watch the video.

not saying his ideas are invalid....but if you have no chance in implementing or influencing, it doesn't much matter..........

Obama ignored Nader, refused to meet with him. A more open minded attitude might give Obama a chance to work with Nader, or Nader with Obama, to affect changes in the fields they agree on.

If his ideas are valid the least Obama could do is listen, right? I don't know if it was you or someone else but, I remember someone said Nader isn't a leader, he has good, valid ideas but he's not a leader. Obama appear to be a leader... but a good leader listens and doesn't ignore people with good, valid ideas. I'm not even saying he should do anything, just listen.

But Obama has gathered a few other advisers and found a few people whom he is willing to listen to; sadly, their words and visions don't offer much change.

Collin

VictoryGin wrote:

except for a few people on the pearl jam message board, no one does care! most people in the real world actually care about getting this country back together.

Well, we both know that more than a few people care about what Nader is saying. It's also quite condescending of you to assume Nader supporters don't want to get this country back together, especially if you consider what Nader has been saying. Furthermore, your obvious attacks towards Nader supporters suggest that you're not actually trying to get this country back together. It's you Obama supporters against the rest, or so it seems.

Anyway, it saddens me that the new America doesn't care about:

Adopting single payer national health insurance
Cutting the huge, bloated, wasteful military budget
Aggressive crackdown on corporate crime and corporate welfare
Opening up the Presidential debates
Adopting a carbon pollution tax
Reversing U.S. policy in the Middle East
...

Opening up the debates is very important because one of the main reasons the US is divided is because it's divided into two groups: republicans and democrats. Obama aims to keep it that way.

But like you said, the people didn't listen to Nader, they listened to Obama and they'll get what they asked for, I guarantee: more war, more of the same bullshit. But don't worry, I'm sure something will change.

VictoryGin

Collin wrote:

Well, we both know that more than a few people care about what Nader is saying. It's also quite condescending of you to assume Nader supporters don't want to get this country back together, especially if you consider what Nader has been saying. Furthermore, your obvious attacks towards Nader supporters suggest that you're not actually trying to get this country back together. It's you Obama supporters against the rest, or so it seems.

this is hilarious. first of all, in regards to the nader supporters comments: i see them here. not in the real world working with others ("with others" is key) to accomplish some change. it seems to be all or nothing with them, as evidenced by this message board. it's not change if it's not nader. and other than that, it's just slamming obama, which indicates they don't want to work together either. not that i give a shit, because again this happens on a message board. this message board is not constructive in any way. there really is no point for anyone who actually wants to change things and be constructive unless you're taking a break from work. sharing of ideas? HA. everyone here is so fixed in their beliefs and aren't going to be swayed. it has become so ridiculous over the past few years. and it's so laughable to hear that YOU think I am not trying to get this country back together. you have absolutely no idea what i have accomplished in the real world.

MrBrian

VictoryGin wrote:

this is hilarious. first of all, in regards to the nader supporters comments: i see them here. not in the real world working with others ("with others" is key) to accomplish some change. it seems to be all or nothing with them, as evidenced by this message board. it's not change if it's not nader. and other than that, it's just slamming obama, which indicates they don't want to work together either. not that i give a shit, because again this happens on a message board. this message board is not constructive in any way. there really is no point for anyone who actually wants to change things and be constructive unless you're taking a break from work. sharing of ideas? HA. everyone here is so fixed in their beliefs and aren't going to be swayed. it has become so ridiculous over the past few years. and it's so laughable to hear that YOU think I am not trying to get this country back together. you have absolutely no idea what i have accomplished in the real world.

Maybe you are not deep enough in the real world to see them? I mean you use conjecture too much. Opinions and make them facts. You dont see them, so they are not doing anything. So its a fact that they dont work with others.

Is the criticism Of Obama not warranted? Are you really able to defend his stances and feelings towards many issues? Do you line up with them?

I believe you have done many things in the real world, so please share.
Lets talk about it, see where we can join forces. Let's right now in this time, really get open.

Let's make a change, a real change. Let's see what our differnces really are, see what we can do about them and move forward.

You are against the Iraq war right? What do you feel about Obama's choice of advisors? You want Iran to be attacked? What do you think about his words towards Iran? His use of the 'wipe Israel off the map' propaganda?

His Blind support of Israel, Rahms views on Israel. Patriot act? Russian aggression line, not being critical of Georgia.

Iran nuke comment when the latest news is the evidence may of been fabricated? What about Rahms thoughts on compulsory service? and he being the man who will help shape the new admin?

You think it was correct for Obama to be against a Bush impeachment saying that he felt that Bush did not do enough to get impeached?

I understand you are not happy with certain phrases and words Nader says, I understand that you feel that he does not compromise enough. But how do you feel about his views and ideas in general? Any of them you really strongly think he is wrong on?

Let's put it behind us and move forward.

This Board is not constructive? Let's make it constructive.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

I just watched his "this time must be different speech"

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/stateupdates/gGxZHn

He didn't really even say anything we don't already know, or says catch phrases people can interpret to mean literally anything. It's all just hopeful, lofty and vague.

And the repetitive "yes we can" mantra thing was exactly like watching a preacher straight up.

It's all great, and wonderful (it really is), but I think there is a disconnect coming in the reality pipeline of what people were expecting at that speech, and what is going to be the reality in the middle east.

This time is going to be different....It will be Iran instead of Iraq. This time is going to be different....different how?

digster

Roland, do you really believe Obama will unilaterally and pre-empitvely attack Iran in the same fashion President Bush did with Iraq?

VictoryGin

MrBrian wrote:

Maybe you are not deep enough in the real world to see them? I mean you use conjecture too much. Opinions and make them facts. You dont see them, so they are not doing anything. So its a fact that they dont work with others.

Is the criticism Of Obama not warranted? Are you really able to defend his stances and feelings towards many issues? Do you line up with them?

I believe you have done many things in the real world, so please share.
Lets talk about it, see where we can join forces. Let's right now in this time, really get open.

Let's make a change, a real change. Let's see what our differnces really are, see what we can do about them and move forward.

You are against the Iraq war right? What do you feel about Obama's choice of advisors? You want Iran to be attacked? What do you think about his words towards Iran? His use of the 'wipe Israel off the map' propaganda?

His Blind support of Israel, Rahms views on Israel. Patriot act? Russian aggression line, not being critical of Georgia.

Iran nuke comment when the latest news is the evidence may of been fabricated? What about Rahms thoughts on compulsory service? and he being the man who will help shape the new admin?

You think it was correct for Obama to be against a Bush impeachment saying that he felt that Bush did not do enough to get impeached?

I understand you are not happy with certain phrases and words Nader says, I understand that you feel that he does not compromise enough. But how do you feel about his views and ideas in general? Any of them you really strongly think he is wrong on?

Let's put it behind us and move forward.

This Board is not constructive? Let's make it constructive.

oh i've seen some nader supporters holding signs outside of the local brewpub. i'm not saying they don't exist. my comment was in response to collin about not reaching out and working with them. and as i already said: it's all or nothing.

anyway, i've been around for over 5 years. there has never been an indication that this is a constructive place. it used to be a good place to talk to people but not anymore. i found how to create real change a while ago, thanks.

MrBrian

VictoryGin wrote:

oh i've seen some nader supporters holding signs outside of the local brewpub. i'm not saying they don't exist. my comment was in response to collin about not reaching out and working with them. and as i already said: it's all or nothing.

anyway, i've been around for over 5 years. there has never been an indication that this is a constructive place. it used to be a good place to talk to people but not anymore. i found how to create real change a while ago, thanks.

Like I said, share! Tell us, If you really care as much as you say. Why not tell us? Lets work together.

Let's see what we can do.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

digster wrote:

Roland, do you really believe Obama will unilaterally and pre-empitvely attack Iran in the same fashion President Bush did with Iraq?

Yes. He has said it himself over and over again so many times that I've lost count. If Iran does not cease it's nuclear program full stop, they themselves will provoke the attack. I'm not sure how much more evidence one needs of proposed intentions?

Iran has to prove a double negative. They have to prove they don't have something that they don't have in the first place. Barack is playing head first into the whole "what if" scenario which is turning into "oh well they will have them eventually". Obama is 100% all about full stop on that situation or else....and this Iran rhetoric is coming straight from Israel (see Obama's AIPAC speech).

What's really going to be the kicker is how Obama gets Israel to adopt the two state solution, and get Gaza fair treatment, and the West bank resolved. Until that happens, Iran will always be an issue, as this is a huge contention for them, (and most of the Arab world for that matter). In other words, Iran is looking so highly probable right now that it would almost be foolish to think it's not going to happen under Obama, and in the same pre-emptive manner by default. I think were going to start seeing preemptive as policy now.

I hope I'm wrong.

MrBrian

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmxX_8HvFzM

rahm/Obama/AIPAC

(It's a scary video, but the raggae at the end is kinda sweet)

and the highlights

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=033gCiurxbg

and this I dunno, just made me laugh (How many times they say Iran)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLH50HghAt8

VictoryGin

MrBrian wrote:

Like I said, share! Tell us, If you really care as much as you say. Why not tell us? Lets work together.

Let's see what we can do.

how exactly is that going to change anything and why would it work now when it hasn't the entire time this board has been in existence?

polaris

VictoryGin wrote:

how exactly is that going to change anything and why would it work now when it hasn't the entire time this board has been in existence?

hey ... we have gotten pro-war people to change their stance ... people who didn't believe in climate change to alter their views ...

it can happen!!

VictoryGin

polaris wrote:

hey ... we have gotten pro-war people to change their stance ... people who didn't believe in climate change to alter their views ...

it can happen!!

well it looks like this is your forum then. my effects lie elsewhere .

good luck!

polaris

VictoryGin wrote:

well it looks like this is your forum then. my effects lie elsewhere .

good luck!

say it isn't so!!! ... we all play a small part - although i don't doubt your role is larger in other areas - i also believe you've played your part over the years especially on issues on equality and humanity on this board ...

MrBrian

VictoryGin wrote:

well it looks like this is your forum then. my effects lie elsewhere .

good luck!

Gin, you brought it up. I'm still asking for you to please share it! Why wont you tell us?

Pretty please!..... with a cherry and a joint on top!...

fugawzi

I'm already disappointed after the election. Disappointed I have to keep hearing about Nader.