U.S. Marines unlikely to report civilian abuse
MrBrian
Posts: 2,672
By David Morgan
Fri May 4, 3:33 PM ET
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Only 40 percent of Marines and 55 percent of U.S. Army soldiers deployed in Iraq say they would report a fellow serviceman for killing or injuring an innocent Iraqi, a Pentagon report released on Friday shows.
"Soldiers with high levels of anger, who had experienced high levels of combat or who screened positive for mental health symptoms were nearly twice as likely to mistreat noncombatants," acting Army Surgeon General Gale Pollock told reporters.
The findings, which included the first survey of ethics among U.S. troops in combat, were released Friday in an 89-page report posted on the Web site http://www.armymedicine.army.mil. It was delivered to senior military officials in November
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070504/us_nm/iraq_usa_civilians_dc
Fri May 4, 3:33 PM ET
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Only 40 percent of Marines and 55 percent of U.S. Army soldiers deployed in Iraq say they would report a fellow serviceman for killing or injuring an innocent Iraqi, a Pentagon report released on Friday shows.
"Soldiers with high levels of anger, who had experienced high levels of combat or who screened positive for mental health symptoms were nearly twice as likely to mistreat noncombatants," acting Army Surgeon General Gale Pollock told reporters.
The findings, which included the first survey of ethics among U.S. troops in combat, were released Friday in an 89-page report posted on the Web site http://www.armymedicine.army.mil. It was delivered to senior military officials in November
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070504/us_nm/iraq_usa_civilians_dc
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Comments
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
My dad did a few tours in nam, and this is called snitching. < He was a marine, and he told me all about this stuff before he died.>
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
And it does'nt make it right, does it? also one would think that they would be smart enough to know that reporting abuse is a good thing, I mean would you feel safer or "depend" on a guy who commits said types of crimes? I would'nt.
Some troops do report crimes, are these troops sell outs? what makes them different? at the end, it boils down to whats right and wrong, everything else is just an excuse. and again I use the fact that some troops do report crimes. a larger number may not, this is my issue. yet they both are in the same army and invading the same country. why make an excuse for the troops that do not report?
kinda get my point?
I would think that the word "crime" really becomes diluted into a matter of "what is or isn't a threat to the unit." If a guy is slamming heroin and stealing from his fellow soldiers to support his habit, this behavior is a threat to the unit and is likely to be reported.
Human rights abuses aren't threats to the unit in a combat sense. And if it isn't a threat, then it's way, way down the list of priorities for guys out in the field.
So, with that in mind, I would honestly doubt that you would feel "safer" reporting those types of crimes if you were serving in a combat zone. Remember, the people you would depend on would be the people who will be watching your back in a firefight. Whether or not those people commit abuses has nothing to do with how well you can depend on them to fulfill that role.
It's believed that only a fraction of the population truly know right from wrong. Everyone can say, "This is wrong" and "That is right", but most people would let go of those beliefs if their lives depended on it.
Behold the Milgram experiment which I am now posting for the gazillionth time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
In that experiment, a majority of the participants committed what they believed was serious bodily harm to an unwilling participant simply because they were being verbally urged to do so by the test administrator.
Most people would say, "I would never do such a thing," but the truth is that most people actually would.
So, the few people that would report these crimes don't do it to feel "safer" as you implied you would. They do it because right and wrong are as clear as day to them in spite of what the majority thinks and in spite of whatever personal harm may be brought to them for acting on their beliefs.
It's really the situation and not the soldiers that is the problem. All I'm saying is that there are actually people out there who are naive enough to point the blame at the soldiers, when those people should really take a look in the mirror. Odds are that they are gutless followers who would be no different if in that situation. Morality is a matter of convenience. It's like the rich calling the poor beggers and thieves, when they were born into their money and would probably steal to keep it.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
After he died all his marine buddies took care of my mom. If it wasn't for them we might have been on the street.
"Human rights abuses aren't threats to the unit in a combat sense. And if it isn't a threat, then it's way, way down the list of priorities for guys out in the field."
-sponger
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The Iraq war is not a combat war, it's not a war you can win will muscle. If that was the case then americas trillion dollars already spent should've provided a win by now. It's a war that can only yield a victory by means other than bloodshed. So with that in mind, each human rights abuse is so detrimental to the war effort,cause? and the troops themselves. It has done everything to help lose the war. I feel it should be put up on the list of priorities.
and again, the soldiers were not taken in their sleeps in teleported to the battle field. Like i've said many times in other threads. They made a choice.
I'll try and get back to this tomor night. ciao
It sounds as though you feel that the Iraqi people are actually capable of making a decision about US troops based on a rational assessment of the actions of those troops.
You seem to ignore the fact that the real underlying resentment for US troops is simply that they are foreign invaders, they are not arab, and that they represent a christian army. After putting up with ruthless dictator after ruthless dictator for so many decades if not hundreds of years, do you really believe that the people of iraq want the US out simply because they actually feel 'threatened' by their human rights violations?
What the Ayatolla of Iran does to his own people makes even the most abusive of US troops look like red cross workers, yet here we are looking at a huge percentage of the population supporting a movement that would most likely result in uncontested Iranian influence in Iraqi politics. To the Iraqis, it is not a matter of the US being violators of human rights; it is a matter of the US not being arab.
Also, while you believe this is a war that is fought with political gestures, it is still a combat situation on the ground where troops face people who mean to do them harm with weaponry. That is a combat situation, and if it wasn't a combat situation, they wouldn't be armed.
They are soldiers, not politicians, and we don't pay or train them to be ambassadors. Not to mention, ambassadors don't have to drive around in a humvee on a daily basis waiting to get dismembered by a landmine.
Again, you don't know what it's like to be in that situation, and you don't really know if you would possess the capacity to be able to handle it in an "ideal" manner. If you did possess that ability, it would put you in an unlikely minority.
But, judging from this comment:
...you probably would not be able to exercise proper judgment. The people who "snitch" don't do it to feel safer. On the contrary, it puts them in more danger. They do it because they feel that passionate about right and wrong.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
You know what, everything else you said is a non issue. Just excuses like I said. But this last part.
I would not be in that situation, I would not join the US army and allow myself to be shipped off and invade another land for power/oil and israel.
and that, puts me in the majority.
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Funny, I don't see you actually explaining why you think that. All you can really say is that you think it's wrong and that's pretty much it. If you have a view that you can't fully explain, then that view is what I would call an "excuse". If you don't know what you're trying to say, then why say it?
"I hate the military..etc." ...typical.
Listen, Mr. Brian, it's pretty clear now that you were really just wanting to express an opinion on a situation that you know little about. But, that's what I'm here for....to figure what you're really thinking... and in this case it was not very much.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
I never said I hate the military, Infact find one post where i've said it? Would you go fight in iraq? if no, does that make you hate the military?
I'm sorry, I don't feel a need to explain myself further. I mean you read a post of mine, then answer with a pre-conceived bias/notion or ideas of what you want to get out of my posts. that's what i'm getting from you.
You expect me to think that you don't hate the military when you are clearly passing judgment on them for simply being in the military? Do you really think everyone in the military should go AWOL instead of fighting in Iraq? Do you understand how the military works? You don't question orders; you follow them. If you can't understand that, then you are either passing judgment on them or you just don't understand the situation. I understand you don't want to admit that you hate the military, but you kind of have to expect that one is capable of reading between the lines.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
I have been under the assumption for years that unless you are willing to trade places with an armed service man, you should say nothing about how he handles him self.
Now, don't get me wrong I am not pro war. If you want to talk about the political issuse, then we will. this is not a political issue.
That comment does not wash with me at all. I am entitled to comment on most anything that I wish. Is it not the country you live in that prides itself on freedom of speech and opinion? Because I am not a politician does this mean that I am not to comment on policies or politics???
And let us not forget why America is in this mess to begin with - lies lies lies, where are the dreaded WMD's that Bush and Blair had the world to believe existed.
If a soldier commits a violent act against a civilian then he is accountalbe and this must not be, under any circumstances, justified. Take the North of Ireland as an example and the mess that was going on for decades. Wake up to the fact that you were lied to, your service men were lied to, whether you like it or not the Iraqi people feel that they are under attack and they are responding in kind, they feel that America has no care for them and judging by your comments from above I believe they are fairly spot on. How would you react in a similar situation?
One more thing, if as you suggest I am not entitled to comment on the Armed Forces given that I have not served, how in God's name do you feel about politicians who have never served, sending young men and women out to their deaths for their cause - surely thats a tad hypocritical.
I will talk to you about politics all you want, because that is how you come to conclusions.
You seem to not understand me. I didn't say that it was okay or that nothing should be done about it. I just think that you shouldn't pass judgment calls on people you don't know. If you have never been in the military or had a gun in your face, you can't even begin to understand what they go through. Sometimes threats to civilians are needed to find out if there might be an explosive device up ahead or if there are infact militants on the roof-tops. Also, it's kind of hard to tell weather or not someone is a civilian, because the guys with guns and the ones with out all dress the same. There is no "army" that has a uniform were fighting. Sometime in the heat of the moment you just can't tell, and if you wait, you and you're entire crew could get blown to bits.
If soemone busts into a house and rapes 3 people and then kills them, by all means throw the fucking book at him.
You can;t just pull out of a military action. we've fucked up the infrastructure so much, that not finishing would allow Iran to step in and turn everyone else against the "evil western devils" Yes even you in Ireland.
Indeed I do feel that is hypocritical. I will never vote for someone to be in any goverment position if they have not served.
I am in envy of the Isreali army. Everyone in the country serves for 2 years at some point, in some fashion. I think that this would be a great idea for our government.
Ok - well in one breath you are telling me that I cannot pass judgement while in the next telling me that I have never been in "That position". With all due respect, you don't know a thing about me, nor I you for that matter. However you are now passing judgement on me, assuming that I have not experienced anything.
The simple point I am trying to make is - when good people let bad things happen - we are all on a fast track to a shit storm. And that is quite frankly what I feel is happening. Because of the actions of America and this gung ho approach to foreign policy, the rest of the western world will suffer the concequences. Take Spain and the Madrid bombings as an example. The most frustrating thing about all of this mess is, history is fraught with simliar campaigns and actions, that saying comes to mind "If we fail to learn from our mistakes we are doomed to repeat them".....or something like that
They were told they were heading out there to keep their families safe at home from 'Mushroom clouds' by their elected leaders and their military high command. Five years later... they are still there trying to keep these fuckers from killing each other for religious, tribal or ethnic reasons... including no reasons at all. And they see the HMMWV in front of them blown off the side of the road andthe 700 witnesses "haven't seen a thing"... you have to be a dick to not understand how frustrating this can be. Toss in the fact that your Commander in Chief is bragging about 320,000 Iraqis trainned as Security Forces and you see first hand what a piece of worthless shit they are.
I would make a horrible soldier because i would probably go nuts and light up an entire neighborhood out of sheer anger, rage and frustration with the entire mess.
Hail, Hail!!!