The real Giuliani?

MrBrianMrBrian Posts: 2,672
edited March 2007 in A Moving Train
im Chipman Fri Mar 9, 12:12 AM ET
March 9 (Bloomberg) -- Rudy Giuliani, who has parlayed his identity as the hero of Sept. 11 into a front-running presidential candidacy, was himself attacked by the nation's firefighters union for rushing to remove debris at New York's World Trade Center site before many remains had been recovered.

The International Association of Fire Fighters union said it wants its 260,000 U.S. members to know the ``real story'' of the former New York mayor, contending that Giuliani sought to curtail search-and-recovery efforts at the World Trade Center site after the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, that claimed the lives of 2,752 people, including 343 union fire fighters.

The union said Giuliani decided on Nov. 2, 2001, to cut the number of fire fighters who could search for the remains of their fallen brethren and other victims to no more 25 at one time, down from more than 300 involved in the search and recovery effort.

Before Giuliani's decision, 101 bodies or remains of fire fighters had been recovered, the union said.

Giuliani also began a ``scoop-and-dump'' operation to speed clean-up of the site as opposed to removing debris piece by piece ``in hope of uncovering more remains,'' the union said.

More Bodies Found

The Washington-based union said that local union presidents tried to meet with Giuliani to stop the action, and the mayor refused to see them. It also said 15 protesting fire fighters were arrested on Giuliani's orders. The union said public outrage ultimately compelled Giuliani to reverse his position.

``Our protests were later proven justified as more bodies were ultimately recovered and those families given a chance for some closure and a decent burial,'' the letter said.

The union said Giuliani was more concerned about the removal of gold, silver and other assets of the Bank of Nova Scotia that was buried beneath the rubble than he was of human remains.

``He valued the money and gold and wanted the site cleared before he left office at the end of 2001 more than he valued the lives and memories of those lost,'' the letter said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/bloomberg/20070309/pl_bloomberg/a8o5p2xitqhk
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,492
    Personally, I think almost a month of recovering bodies was more than sufficient.

    It was a terrible thing, not really sure how having a body to bury makes it better.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • MrBrianMrBrian Posts: 2,672
    Personally, I think almost a month of recovering bodies was more than sufficient.

    It was a terrible thing, not really sure how having a body to bury makes it better.

    Like chief said, closure plays an important role. But now that I think about it, one can also say that it's almost selfish for victims families to want the recovery to be more than a month since obvioulsy only body parts remain. why spend so much more time looking for these parts when at the time it was also very important to start a major clean up.

    I see your point,
  • JOEJOEJOEJOEJOEJOE Posts: 10,608
    Personally, I think almost a month of recovering bodies was more than sufficient.

    It was a terrible thing, not really sure how having a body to bury makes it better.

    Its for the families of the victims to decide on whether or not having a body to bury makes it better.
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,492
    well, i agree to a point, but to some family members it IS important. it offers them some sense of closure. luckily, you and i can wonder how it makes it better, but we can never really know how important it is to these people.


    Certainly I see your point. But then again, how long is long enough? DO we have ot find all the bodies? We don;t even know how many to look for.

    I think it is people just lashing out due to their extreme pain from the loss. Hopefully they will come to terms.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,492
    JOEJOEJOE wrote:
    Its for the families of the victims to decide on whether or not having a body to bury makes it better.


    Sure enough, but someone has to decide when to stop searching.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • JOEJOEJOEJOEJOEJOE Posts: 10,608
    Sure enough, but someone has to decide when to stop searching.

    I agree....very touchy subject to those involved, I reckon!
  • onelongsongonelongsong Posts: 3,517
    Personally, I think almost a month of recovering bodies was more than sufficient.

    It was a terrible thing, not really sure how having a body to bury makes it better.

    i thought it was 2 months. 9/11 to 11/2. either way; rotting bodies is a health hazard to the living. add the fact that rats would be consuming the remains; i think it was a good decision in the best interests of the public. to some having a body is important; but to many others removing hazardous materials was important. governments job is to protect the public and that's what was done.
  • PJ_SalukiPJ_Saluki Posts: 1,006
    JOEJOEJOE wrote:
    Its for the families of the victims to decide on whether or not having a body to bury makes it better.
    It is up to people like RG to make tough decisions in tough times that aren't going to be popular with everyone. It's part of the job and part of leadership.
    "Almost all those politicians took money from Enron, and there they are holding hearings. That's like O.J. Simpson getting in the Rae Carruth jury pool." -- Charles Barkley
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,492
    i thought it was 2 months. 9/11 to 11/2. either way; rotting bodies is a health hazard to the living. add the fact that rats would be consuming the remains; i think it was a good decision in the best interests of the public. to some having a body is important; but to many others removing hazardous materials was important. governments job is to protect the public and that's what was done.


    You are right, almost 2 months.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • onelongsongonelongsong Posts: 3,517
    PJ_Saluki wrote:
    It is up to people like RG to make tough decisions in tough times that aren't going to be popular with everyone. It's part of the job and part of leadership.

    i hate politicians that make everything a popularity contest. we need a strong leader that will do what's best in the face of being unpopular.
  • The real Giuliani?...makes me wonder because I just saw a clip of him dressed in completely in drag laughing hysterically while Donald Trump was snuggling him and kissing his fake breasts...
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • PJ_SalukiPJ_Saluki Posts: 1,006
    i hate politicians that make everything a popularity contest. we need a strong leader that will do what's best in the face of being unpopular.
    And I'm not even saying I'd go for RG or not. I do, however, appreciate that some people are willing to put themselves in a position in which they have to make gut-wrenching decisions -- right or wrong -- on issues that don't have a popular resolution.
    "Almost all those politicians took money from Enron, and there they are holding hearings. That's like O.J. Simpson getting in the Rae Carruth jury pool." -- Charles Barkley
  • JOEJOEJOEJOEJOEJOE Posts: 10,608
    PJ_Saluki wrote:
    It is up to people like RG to make tough decisions in tough times that aren't going to be popular with everyone. It's part of the job and part of leadership.[/quote

    But do we know the exact reasons for his decisions........we don;t know that he had everyone's best interests in mind. Blind faith in a leader isn;t always the best thing!
  • MrBrianMrBrian Posts: 2,672
    PJ_Saluki wrote:
    And I'm not even saying I'd go for RG or not. I do, however, appreciate that some people are willing to put themselves in a position in which they have to make gut-wrenching decisions -- right or wrong -- on issues that don't have a popular resolution.

    Yeah true, but when you take into account some of the other decisions he made post 9/11. It's pretty easy to look at Giuliani as a poor leader.

    I mean turning away 20 million dollars because it came from a guy who criticized American foreign policy as being the possible cause of the WTC attacks. That's a very poor decision.
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,492
    MrBrian wrote:
    Yeah true, but when you take into account some of the other decisions he made post 9/11. It's pretty easy to look at Giuliani as a poor leader.

    I mean turning away 20 million dollars because it came from a guy who criticized American foreign policy as being the possible cause of the WTC attacks. That's a very poor decision.


    How do you feel about the US dealings with Saddam in the 80's?

    If you feel that was bad, then I would think you would like RG turning that money down.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • PJ_SalukiPJ_Saluki Posts: 1,006
    JOEJOEJOE wrote:
    PJ_Saluki wrote:
    It is up to people like RG to make tough decisions in tough times that aren't going to be popular with everyone. It's part of the job and part of leadership.[/quote

    But do we know the exact reasons for his decisions........we don;t know that he had everyone's best interests in mind. Blind faith in a leader isn;t always the best thing!
    I agree that we don't know what his thinking was when he made the choice. I'm not saying we should have blind faith in a leader, either. What I am saying is that the responsibility of leadership requires that the people elected to those positions make decisions on unpopular issues. Also, there isn't always a nefarious reason that leaders make decisions. Maybe RG simply thought it was time to start cleaning up a potentially hazardous mess. It's also possible he weighed the psyche of the city as a whole and decided it would be better for NYC to begin cleaning up the site. Whatever his reasons, I'm sure he didn't make the decision without consulting with several people about the pros and cons of ending the recovery mission.

    PS -- My 100th post! (thank you word game)
    "Almost all those politicians took money from Enron, and there they are holding hearings. That's like O.J. Simpson getting in the Rae Carruth jury pool." -- Charles Barkley
  • VictoryGinVictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    i thought it was 2 months. 9/11 to 11/2. either way; rotting bodies is a health hazard to the living. add the fact that rats would be consuming the remains; i think it was a good decision in the best interests of the public. to some having a body is important; but to many others removing hazardous materials was important. governments job is to protect the public and that's what was done.

    the rats swam to brooklyn.
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
  • Firefighters Union Letter On Rudy Giuliani
    March 8, 2007
    http://www.firefightingnews.com/article-US.cfm?articleID=27125
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • MrBrianMrBrian Posts: 2,672
    How do you feel about the US dealings with Saddam in the 80's?

    If you feel that was bad, then I would think you would like RG turning that money down.

    The guy who gave the donation is not a mass killer, he's a business man who just decided to give a huge amount of money to help out.

    To turn that money away shows nothing but ignorance. Did the dollar bills have bombs on them? I mean the money would've helped. that was the point.

    It was not blood money, infact most of his money is not even oil money, it's from property and investments.

    Oh yeah, I said 20, but it was 10 million. my bad

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Waleed_bin_Talal

    http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/10/11/rec.giuliani.prince/index.html
  • Gary CarterGary Carter Posts: 14,067
    Firefighters Union Letter On Rudy Giuliani
    March 8, 2007
    http://www.firefightingnews.com/article-US.cfm?articleID=27125
    what a load of fucking shit, i guess the fact that Hillary Clinton never went to one firefighter servics and rudy went to 110 serivces after 9-11, doesnt mean a thing. politics at its finest people
    Ron: I just don't feel like going out tonight
    Sammi: Wanna just break up?

  • VictoryGin wrote:
    the rats swam to brooklyn.

    Ahem. They prefer to be called "Bens".
    "Of course it hurts. You're getting fucked by an elephant."
  • VictoryGinVictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    Ahem. They prefer to be called "Bens".

    oh yes of course, how could i forget the Bens that wanted to live rent free? i mean, at least the Jerrys were cute---when remaining on the floor.

    ben the two of us need look no more, i think not.
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
  • VictoryGin wrote:
    oh yes of course, how could i forget the Bens that wanted to live rent free? i mean, at least the Jerrys were cute---when remaining on the floor.

    ben the two of us need look no more, i think not.

    i've been reading up on rudy's mayoral career pre-sept. 11. interesting stuff...
    "Of course it hurts. You're getting fucked by an elephant."
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    what a load of fucking shit, i guess the fact that Hillary Clinton never went to one firefighter servics and rudy went to 110 serivces after 9-11, doesnt mean a thing. politics at its finest people


    Mayor Giuliani's actions meant that fire fighters and citizens who perished would either remain buried at Ground Zero forever, with no closure for families, or be removed like garbage and deposited at the Fresh Kills Landfill.

    And when hundreds of family members of the fallen joined with our affiliate leadership and members to protest Giuliani's decision, he ordered senior officers of the New York Police Department to arrest 15 of our FDNY brothers, including a number of local elected IAFF leaders.

    In the first few days immediately after the disaster, Giuliani had said he was committed to the recovery of those lost "right down to the last brick." We believed him at the time. But, what he proved with his actions is that he really meant the "last gold brick."

    Giuliani crucified fire fighters after our protest and publicly stated that our members were essentially acting like babies, that they didn't have the market cornered on grief. His insensitive statements demonstrated his inability to grasp what members of the FDNY were experiencing.

    yeah, that does seem like a load of fucking shit! :rolleyes:
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • kenny olavkenny olav Posts: 3,319
    Personally, I think almost a month of recovering bodies was more than sufficient.

    It was a terrible thing, not really sure how having a body to bury makes it better.

    really? would you tell that to the firefighters?
  • kenny olavkenny olav Posts: 3,319
    VictoryGin wrote:
    oh yes of course, how could i forget the Bens that wanted to live rent free? i mean, at least the Jerrys were cute---when remaining on the floor.

    ben the two of us need look no more, i think not.



    mmm.... Ben and Jerry's
  • VictoryGinVictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    i've been reading up on rudy's mayoral career pre-sept. 11. interesting stuff...

    http://www.theonion.com/content/news/giuliani_to_run_for_president_of_9

    here's that nation article about his career, if you haven't read it yet:
    http://www.thenation.com/doc/20020617/newfield
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    I don't know why so many people are making a fuss over Rudy. The man will not get past the primaries. I just saw a clip from a 1989 speech he gave where he stated that there should be public funding for abortions. There is no way in hell that the conservative portion of GOP voter will pick Rudy.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
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