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20 Years Ago ...

polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
edited June 2008 in A Moving Train
James Hansen warned the folks at capitol hill about the perils of global warming/climate change. He returned yesterday proven correct casting a further warning about how perilously close we are to a tipping point in the earth's climate systems. Look around you - not many parts of the earth is the climate seem normal.

Flash floods, drought and extreme weather is all around us. Those who seek to continue to believe that humans cannot understand the workings of the climate because a) we've only been tracking this info for such a relatively short period of time and/or b) believe the earth's climate always changes NEED to for lack of a better phrase get their heads out of their asses.

Single biggest issue facing life on this planet yesterday, today and tomorrow.

http://www.thestar.com/News/World/article/447808
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • kh65kh65 Posts: 946
    20 years does not a climate trend make. How do you explain the Middle Ages Warming period? Why do you thing the Vikings settled in Greenland and grew crops? No one denies that we are warming. But nothing proves it is caused by mankind. The Earth's climate has always followed cycles and mankind has thrived when the Earth is warmer not colder. I would suggest you read this book before you make up your mind.

    http://www.amazon.com/Climate-Confusion-Pandering-Politicians-Misguided/dp/1594032106
    "If you're not living on the edge you're taking up too much room."

    Gambling=a taxation on stupidity.

    Remember, you can walk anywhere, as long as you have the time.

    http://www.ryanmontbleauband.com/

    http://www.myspace.com/jessedee
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    kh65 wrote:
    20 years does not a climate trend make. How do you explain the Middle Ages Warming period? Why do you thing the Vikings settled in Greenland and grew crops? No one denies that we are warming. But nothing proves it is caused by mankind. The Earth's climate has always followed cycles and mankind has thrived when the Earth is warmer not colder. I would suggest you read this book before you make up your mind.

    http://www.amazon.com/Climate-Confusion-Pandering-Politicians-Misguided/dp/1594032106

    i humbly suggest you read the numerous reports by the IPCC and UN and that you don't continue to post references to people such as roy spencer

    http://www.desmogblog.com/node/1397

    Spencer is listed as an author for the Heartland Institiute, a US think tank that has received $561,500 from ExxonMobil since 1998.

    you are pretty much saying the same thing that all the op-ed types say - there is NO peer-reviewed piece of science out there that shows that climate change is NOT real and that it is NOT caused by humans ...

    really - this is the same pattern every climate change thread goes ... someone posts some link to some guy who gets paid by big oil - then a link shows this guys work is a load of crock ...

    edit: the fact you think the work of the leading climate scientists is from 20 years of study is indicative on its own
  • OpenOpen Posts: 792
    kh65 wrote:
    20 years does not a climate trend make. How do you explain the Middle Ages Warming period? Why do you thing the Vikings settled in Greenland and grew crops? No one denies that we are warming. But nothing proves it is caused by mankind. The Earth's climate has always followed cycles and mankind has thrived when the Earth is warmer not colder. I would suggest you read this book before you make up your mind.

    http://www.amazon.com/Climate-Confusion-Pandering-Politicians-Misguided/dp/1594032106

    You should hang out with this kid...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07WX3F7UQWA
  • Kel VarnsenKel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    kh65 wrote:
    20 years does not a climate trend make. How do you explain the Middle Ages Warming period? Why do you thing the Vikings settled in Greenland and grew crops? No one denies that we are warming. But nothing proves it is caused by mankind. The Earth's climate has always followed cycles and mankind has thrived when the Earth is warmer not colder. I would suggest you read this book before you make up your mind.

    http://www.amazon.com/Climate-Confusion-Pandering-Politicians-Misguided/dp/1594032106


    The thing I don't get about people denying that climate change being caused by humans is that even if it isn't being caused by humans, what people say are the causes of it are still major problems for society. I mean even if there is no climate change whatsoever, air pollution is not a good thing and it is a good idea for people to decrease the amount of energy they use. So why do people waste their time debating whether or not it is happening when even if it isn’t people will still benefit greatly by decreased air pollution and energy conservation?

    It would be like if someone believed that they didn’t really need to quit smoking because they found some study that said smoking wasn’t linked to cancer. But even if smoking didn’t give you cancer, it still makes your teeth yellow, makes you cough a lot and makes it so you can’t climb a flight of stairs which are all good reasons to quit.
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,497
    Kel Varnsen wrote:
    The thing I don't get about people denying that climate change being caused by humans is that even if it isn't being caused by humans, what people say are the causes of it are still major problems for society. I mean even if there is no climate change whatsoever, air pollution is not a good thing and it is a good idea for people to decrease the amount of energy they use. So why do people waste their time debating whether or not it is happening when even if it isn’t people will still benefit greatly by decreased air pollution and energy conservation?

    It would be like if someone believed that they didn’t really need to quit smoking because they found some study that said smoking wasn’t linked to cancer. But even if smoking didn’t give you cancer, it still makes your teeth yellow, makes you cough a lot and makes it so you can’t climb a flight of stairs which are all good reasons to quit.


    Good post....I think this subject is 2-fold, it is important to still look at and discuss whether or not it's a human induced matter, because if it isn't, we'll need to try and counter it or simply prepare for it in different ways than if it's human-related.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Good post....I think this subject is 2-fold, it is important to still look at and discuss whether or not it's a human induced matter, because if it isn't, we'll need to try and counter it or simply prepare for it in different ways than if it's human-related.

    is it your distrust of all things progressive that makes you NOT want to believe all the leading scientists in the world today?
  • kh65kh65 Posts: 946
    polaris wrote:
    is it your distrust of all things progressive that makes you NOT want to believe all the leading scientists in the world today?
    Really. The book I mentioned is written by a NASA scientist and he say no one has any idea what causes warming. The climate is too complex to fully understand it. All the records anyone can go back to are maybe 100 years which is miniscule in the history of the Earth most of the hysteria is caused for political purposes and not true science.
    "If you're not living on the edge you're taking up too much room."

    Gambling=a taxation on stupidity.

    Remember, you can walk anywhere, as long as you have the time.

    http://www.ryanmontbleauband.com/

    http://www.myspace.com/jessedee
  • LikeAnOceanLikeAnOcean Posts: 7,718
    Am I the only one who beliefs humans are part of nature, hence nature is warming itself?

    I mean, we are 100% of this earth, 100% natural.
  • kh65kh65 Posts: 946
    LikeAnOcean wrote:
    Am I the only one who beliefs humans are part of nature, hence nature is warming itself?

    I mean, we are 100% of this earth, 100% natural.
    I couldn't agree more and we are the only species that can bend nature to high degree to suit our needs. The Earth is here for us to use.
    "If you're not living on the edge you're taking up too much room."

    Gambling=a taxation on stupidity.

    Remember, you can walk anywhere, as long as you have the time.

    http://www.ryanmontbleauband.com/

    http://www.myspace.com/jessedee
  • LikeAnOceanLikeAnOcean Posts: 7,718
    kh65 wrote:
    The Earth is here for us to use.
    But it also has the option to kill us off. The earth is only so big. We can only use it so much.. As much as we think it is in our control, it really isn't.

    I think the breaking point is coming, and we have no control over it. We are our own downfall.. and its 100% natural.


    I mean, does anyone think in the next 10 years the U.S., China and the rest of the world will be running on 100% clean fuel?

    Is everyone here willing to give up there dependency on oil right now? No.
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,497
    polaris wrote:
    is it your distrust of all things progressive that makes you NOT want to believe all the leading scientists in the world today?


    You might want to try and pick a fight with someone else. I'm mostly on your side. I would just like to cover all the bases. What if we're experienceing climate change and nothign we do to make lifestyle changes is going to have an impact? That's th eother question that I think we need to be addressing...in addition to reducing our emissions, etc.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • OpenOpen Posts: 792
    LikeAnOcean wrote:
    Am I the only one who beliefs humans are part of nature, hence nature is warming itself?

    I mean, we are 100% of this earth, 100% natural.

    We're not living 100% natural; if we were, then your post would make more sense.
  • LikeAnOceanLikeAnOcean Posts: 7,718
    Open wrote:
    We're not living 100% natural; if we were, then your post would make more sense.
    Is oil, carbon dioxide, not natural?

    I guess my point could be argued. It all depends how you look at it.
  • mattcozeamattcozea Posts: 377
    polaris wrote:
    Those who seek to continue to believe that humans cannot understand the workings of the climate because a) we've only been tracking this info for such a relatively short period of time and/or b) believe the earth's climate always changes NEED to for lack of a better phrase get their heads out of their asses.
    Well here's the thing, both a and b are completely true, but that doesn't mean global warming due to increased CO2 emissions isn't happening.
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  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    kh65 wrote:
    All really. The book I mentioned is written by a NASA scientist and he say no one has any idea what causes warming. The climate is too complex to fully understand it. All the records anyone can go back to are maybe 100 years which is miniscule in the history of the Earth most of the hysteria is caused for political purposes and not true science.

    read the author's profile on the link i sent ... again - you are not saying what others who haven't bothered to read about it haven't said before ...
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    cincybearcat wrote:
    You might want to try and pick a fight with someone else. I'm mostly on your side. I would just like to cover all the bases. What if we're experienceing climate change and nothign we do to make lifestyle changes is going to have an impact? That's th eother question that I think we need to be addressing...in addition to reducing our emissions, etc.

    i'm not trying to pick a fight - it's just that was the debate we were having 5 years ago ... debating about whether it's man-made or not only serves to delay our response and continue to divert attention from the effects that are already upon us ...
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,497
    polaris wrote:
    i'm not trying to pick a fight - it's just that was the debate we were having 5 years ago ... debating about whether it's man-made or not only serves to delay our response and continue to divert attention from the effects that are already upon us ...


    BUt to think it's only a man-made issue is ignoring a very possible problem. I'm all for reducing the effects on man on the environment...I just don't want to put all my eggs into 1 basket.

    Like someone said before, even if it's not entirely man-made, you still benefit from less pollution, etc.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • OpenOpen Posts: 792
    LikeAnOcean wrote:
    Is oil, carbon dioxide, not natural?

    I guess my point could be argued. It all depends how you look at it.


    Are we drinking the oil straight out of the ground? No we're refining it and using it in machines. Last time i checked engines and cars dont grow on trees.
  • LikeAnOceanLikeAnOcean Posts: 7,718
    Open wrote:
    Are we drinking the oil straight out of the ground? No we're refining it and using it in machines. Last time i checked engines and cars dont grow on trees.
    But the point I'm making is, humans are natural, hence nature is making machines.. Bee hives don't grow out of the ground either. Bees make them.. see my point?

    I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just saying it depends on how you define or look at what is natural.
  • kh65kh65 Posts: 946
    polaris wrote:
    read the author's profile on the link i sent ... again - you are not saying what others who haven't bothered to read about it haven't said before ...
    I don't have time to read what is written by people I don't agree with. Since I am Godlike I can ignore the rest of you and I shall.
    "If you're not living on the edge you're taking up too much room."

    Gambling=a taxation on stupidity.

    Remember, you can walk anywhere, as long as you have the time.

    http://www.ryanmontbleauband.com/

    http://www.myspace.com/jessedee
  • OpenOpen Posts: 792
    LikeAnOcean wrote:
    But the point I'm making is, humans are natural, hence nature is making machines.. Bee hives don't grow out of the ground either. Bees make them.. see my point?

    I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just saying it depends on how you define or look at what is natural.

    I see your point but i dont see it valid when it comes to global warming. Not everything we make is natural.

    Even if i saw your point as valid; bees dont know they are doing harm to their enviroment (until its too late). We do; we have a responsibility to see the earth > money and profit.
  • LikeAnOceanLikeAnOcean Posts: 7,718
    Open wrote:
    Even if i saw your point as valid; bees dont know they are doing harm to their enviroment (until its too late). We do; we have a responsibility to see the earth > money and profit.
    OK, that's what you sold me on in this argument. We are aware. Our collective consciousness is aware we are threatening our own existence... but can we stop it? or is it natures way to shake us off like a disease.
  • OpenOpen Posts: 792
    LikeAnOcean wrote:
    OK, that's what you sold me on in this argument. We are aware. Our collective consciousness is aware we are threatening our own existence... but can we stop it? or is it natures way to shake us off like a disease.


    I do agree with you on that perspective; if we're too dumb to do anything about it maybe it's just natural selection of the species. ;)
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Good post....I think this subject is 2-fold, it is important to still look at and discuss whether or not it's a human induced matter, because if it isn't, we'll need to try and counter it or simply prepare for it in different ways than if it's human-related.

    This is the issue I see with Global warming, or what ever it is being called these days. We continue to argue back and forth wether this problem is man-made or not when at this point it doesn't really matter. Global climate change is occuring and we should be preparing for what is in store. Does it really make difference what is causing it because at this point most experts will tell you that the damage is done.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    cincybearcat wrote:
    BUt to think it's only a man-made issue is ignoring a very possible problem. I'm all for reducing the effects on man on the environment...I just don't want to put all my eggs into 1 basket.

    Like someone said before, even if it's not entirely man-made, you still benefit from less pollution, etc.

    by believing it is man-made is ignoring what problem?
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    mammasan wrote:
    This is the issue I see with Global warming, or what ever it is being called these days. We continue to argue back and forth wether this problem is man-made or not when at this point it doesn't really matter. Global climate change is occuring and we should be preparing for what is in store. Does it really make difference what is causing it because at this point most experts will tell you that the damage is done.

    that's like saying cancer is gonna happen anyways - so, let's just deal with it ... whereas maybe reducing toxins in our food, water and air might actually help to reduce cancer rates ...

    we KNOW what is causing all this - it has been forecasted and it is happening now - there is a solution, it is in front of us ... the only thing standing in its way is greed, ignorance and apathy ...
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,497
    polaris wrote:
    by believing it is man-made is ignoring what problem?


    I think we're having a communication breakdown....

    Yes, believing it is solely man-made and that we have the power to stop it is ignoring a potentially serious issue.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    cincybearcat wrote:
    I think we're having a communication breakdown....

    Yes, believing it is solely man-made and that we have the power to stop it is ignoring a potentially serious issue.

    possibly ... it's happened before ... :)

    what potential serious issue are we ignoring?
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    polaris wrote:
    that's like saying cancer is gonna happen anyways - so, let's just deal with it ... whereas maybe reducing toxins in our food, water and air might actually help to reduce cancer rates ...

    we KNOW what is causing all this - it has been forecasted and it is happening now - there is a solution, it is in front of us ... the only thing standing in its way is greed, ignorance and apathy ...

    My point is that we spend sp much time arguing over wether it's man made or not that we are loosing time that can be used to prepare for the changes that are coming. Yes we should definitely do more to preserve our ecosystem, but we should do that even if cglobal climate change is not man made.

    To use your example it would be like arguing over wether smoking causes cancer constantly and not even bothering to work on a way to cure the cancer.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • polarispolaris Posts: 3,527
    mammasan wrote:
    My point is that we spend sp much time arguing over wether it's man made or not that we are loosing time that can be used to prepare for the changes that are coming. Yes we should definitely do more to preserve our ecosystem, but we should do that even if cglobal climate change is not man made.

    To use your example it would be like arguing over wether smoking causes cancer constantly and not even bothering to work on a way to cure the cancer.

    i think i get your point ... but do you get mine?

    while you want to focus on finding a cure - i'm more interested in prevention ...
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