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cluster bombs
El_Kabong
Posts: 4,141
3 articles on cluster bombs which are used by us in places like iraq and israel in lebanon
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-12-10-cluster-bomb-cover_x.htm
http://www.motherjones.com/news/special_reports/total_coverage/kosovo/reality_check/cluster.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5213026.stm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-12-10-cluster-bomb-cover_x.htm
http://www.motherjones.com/news/special_reports/total_coverage/kosovo/reality_check/cluster.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5213026.stm
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Post edited by Unknown User on
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so...you think cluster bombs are an acceptable means of bombardment?
you are ok w/ all the unexploded bomblets that kill or maim kids and other innocents?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
i wasn't even going to debate that, if the US military did it then i am sure it was wrong. i was only pointing out how slanted the reporting was in the usa today article.
they kill the adults and they kill the children, who then because they are dead, can not seek revenge against their fathers' killers.
it's beautiful thing, the mind of a warmonger.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
yeah, cuz THAT's the goal.
and..........
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_bomb
The first cluster bomb used operationally was the German SD-2 or Sprengbombe Dickwandig 2 kg, commonly referred to as the Butterfly Bomb. It was used during the Second World War to attack both civilian and military targets. The technology was developed independently by the United States of America, Russia and Italy (see Thermos Bomb). Cluster bombs are now standard air-dropped munitions FOR MOST NATIONS, in a wide variety of types.
Pity only when Israel or the US uses them do people round here get their panties ina bunch.
www.myspace.com/jensvad
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Because describing how a weapon works and how it kills innocents long after hostilities is ended? How is this about liberal slant? Should it be tempered by military officials that praise the weapon and focus on how many enemies it can kill?
Cluster bombs are efficient, and rather atrocious as it leaves a lot of working-as-land-mines bomblets all over the place, and it takes a lot of effort and resources to sniff them out and destroy them. If they are to be used, they must be used highly limited and not in any way in urban areas. Widespread use of them is worthy of heavy criticism. They are efficient, as is napalm and nukes too. Doesn't mean it is right to use them.
Currently, cluster bombs, land-mines and DU shells are highly questionable weapons as they kill for the most part non-combatants potentially years after the bombing. That's not a partisan issue.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
And Us soldiers die from unexploded ordinances as well....while trying to save Iraqi children....
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-12-11-cluster-bombs2_x.htm
Dangers for U.S. troops
The abundance of unexploded submunitions also left a dangerous mess for U.S. soldiers advancing into Baghdad.
Troops from the 101st Airborne found themselves in Baghdad's al-Jihad neighborhood in mid-April, contending with hundreds of unexploded M42 cluster bomblets. "There were M42s all around the houses," says Maj. Mike Getchell, 37, of Bridgewater, Mass., executive officer of the 101st Airborne's 3rd Brigade. During the three weeks the 101st troops patrolled al-Jihad, they destroyed an average of 100 M42s every day.
On April 19, Sgt. Troy Jenkins, 25, a 6-foot-7 paratrooper from Repton, Ala., was bringing up the rear of a patrol through the streets of al-Jihad. The streets were packed with people celebrating a festival. Suddenly, a little girl emerged from the crowd, carrying what turned out to be an M42 cluster bomblet. She tried to hand it to Jenkins. No one in the patrol knows exactly what happened next. But the bomblet went off, and the little girl, Jenkins and three other soldiers went down.
The little girl died after her family took her to a hospital. Jenkins was evacuated for medical treatment, first to Kuwait and then to Germany, where he died after losing his left leg. He left behind a wife and two sons, ages 4 and 2. The three other soldiers recovered.
http://www.screamingeaglesthroughtime.com/id22.html
dangerous for US soldiers? what are they doing in iraq anyway? and israel, well now, they have made their own bed. America and israel create the mess, then they complain about it.
Hmm, I guess we can't see the danger presented outside our political views? Being open minded would mean being 'open' to the death that occurs on both sides due to these weapons.
The US or Israel's bed as you call it means that it is quite allright for an Israeli kid to die from an unexploded ordinance but it is a shame when it happens to the Lebanese. Or that it is just fine when a US soldier dies from an unexploded ordinance while trying to keep that from happening to an Iraqi child, but it would be wrong if the Iraqi child dies.
Moral ambiguity is why we have wars in the first place.
well said.
No I never said that it's fine when an israeli kid dies from said weapon or any other weapon for that matter, what i'm saying is that israel has put themselves in this position. If they did not attack lebanon then we would not be talking about israeli kids getting killed by any "unexploded ordinance".
as far as US troops go, yes it's fine if they die, is it sad? of course, but these bombs are only around due to them being in iraq. It's a simple fact, not conjectue, just fact. If you jump into water, expect some waves. America and israel are the fat kids who jumped into a pool.
You don't have to like it,
nowhere did i say it was THE goal, just that it's obvious it WILL happen which birngs the question as to whether or not it is an acceptable measure.
so...b/c i am not posting about germany using it in wwii makes the point irrelevant...how?
also from the link you provided:
Threat to civilians
The use of these weapons is hotly opposed by many individuals and groups, such as the Red Cross, the NGO Cluster Munition Coalition and the United Nations, because of the high proportion of civilians that have fallen victim to the weapon. The particular threat this weapon poses to civilians exists for two main reasons. First, because of the weapon's very wide area of effect, accidentally striking both civilian and military objects in the target area is possible. The area affected by a single cluster munition, also known as the footprint, can be as large as two or three football fields. This characteristic of the weapon is particularly problematic for civilians when cluster munitions are used in or near populated areas and has been documented by research reports from groups such as Human Rights Watch and Landmine Action[1]. Secondly, depending on type and their use, between 1% and 40% of the bomblets do not explode on impact[2]. These unexploded ordnance (duds) present a particularly dense and dangerous form of post-conflict contamination and may unintentionally act like anti-personnel land mines (which have been banned in many countries under the Ottawa Treaty) for several years. However, cluster bombs are not banned by any international treaty and are considered legitimate and effective weapons by many NATO governments. International governmental deliberations revolve around the broader problem of explosive remnants of war, a problem to which cluster munitions have contributed in a significant way. However, despite calls from humanitarian organisations and some governments, no international governmental negotiations or formal discussions are underway to develop specific measures that would address the humanitarian problems cluster munitions pose. The issue of unexploded cluster bomblets should not be confused with cluster bombs containing landmines, such as the CBU-89 Gator.
The small size and bright colours of some bomblets make them attractive to passers-by, especially small children. CBUs are still a danger in Indochina, especially in Laos and central Vietnam's former DMZ. More recently, in Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Lebanon, several civilians have been killed by unexploded bomblets.[3] In post-war Kosovo unexploded cluster bomblets caused more civilian deaths than landmines [4]. In the United States military action against Afghanistan in 2002, military forces faced an embarrassing problem in that humanitarian rations dropped from airplanes initially had the same yellow colored packaging as unexploded BLU97 cluster bombs. The rations packaging was later changed first to blue and then to clear packaging in the hopes of avoiding such hazardous confusion.
The United Nations Mine Action Coordination Center in Tyre, Lebanon raised an alarm over cluster bombs, nearly two weeks after a ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah came into force, saying cluster munitions were reaping a bloody toll among returning refugees. Lebanese military figures put the toll from cluster bombs to 11 killed and 43 wounded, including several children, since the ceasefire began on August 14, 2006. Three Lebanese bomb disposal experts were killed by a cluster bomb in the village of Tebnin, 15 kilometers (nine miles) from the Israeli border. [5] The US State Department has launched an inquiry into whether Israel misused US-made cluster bombs in Lebanon during the conflict of 2006. The UN's Mine Action Coordination Centre says it has found 318 sites in south Lebanon where cluster bombs have been used. "A lot of them are in civilian areas, on farmland and in people's homes, said spokeswoman Dalya Farran. "We're finding a lot at the entrances to houses, on balconies and roofs," she said. "Sometimes windows are broken and they get inside the houses." "Most of them are from America," Ms Farran said. [6]
paper plates; do you see anything wrong w/ using these weapons in populated areas?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
i'll answer....i know alot about this weapon, and knowing what i know about this situation i would NOT have used them here. its a good weapon, but its not one that you want to be putting in a civilian neighborhood. but i am guessing that whatever the military did, you would be against. thats why nobody is going to bother to attempt a rational conversation with you. sorry.
i accept your apology for judging me completely
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
no weapon used so indiscriminately is a good weapon. in fact i would go so far to say that no weapon is a good weapon.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
http://www.myspace.com/brain_of_c
there is no rationalization for using these bombs ... we can absolutely have zero reason and just allow everything to happen in war where torturing children is ok and the such or we can have rules of engagement ... either way - people can cry bias but they won't be able to justify their use ...
Cluster bombs are acceptable when used on military targets, away from civilian areas. So no, Isreal's use of them in Lebanon was probably unacceptable. What's your point? Is this another anti-DU type crusade? Any weapon can be grossly misused.
my point is certain weapons shouldn't be used. so...in the case of israel in lebanon it was wrong to use...then it should also be wrong when the us uses them in populated areas in iraq, yugoslavia, afghanistan....in other words, we should not be using these weapons. when are they using these weapons in the 'right' way?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Well, you are right in that it does sound a bit silly to talk about using weapons "the right way" ... But that begs the question ... Why single out cluster bombs?
probably because they openly contradict what israel and america were saying about only going after terrorist and how effient their laser guided weapons are, then when you hear about the huge amount of times they used these cluster bombs that mainly killed and put in danger innocents.
I think that's why?
b/c w/ a laser guided bomb you can say it will always hit the intended target (assuming what is targeted is the intended target)...if they drop a laser guided bomb on a house down the block from me it will hit that house and only that house...if they dropped a cluster bomb on it instead everyone around it would be hit.
it's like asking should a swat member fire into a crowd w/ a sniper rifle w/ scope or a shotgun? (and that is based on if he HAD to shoot into a crowd, we can skip the 'he shouldn't shoot into the crowd at all!; argument)
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Anyhow, I agree that using cluster bombs in areas where there are civilians present is total overkill and a poor way to fight a war. I'd argue harder but I basically agree with you guys. I will say, though, that tactics used and weapon type aren't the same thing. In earlier wars in the Middle East, Israel dropped cluster bombs on enemy armour and troop formations, nowhere near civilian areas. Still pretty destructive and cruel, but its warfare. The goal is to defeat the enemy, not leave him alive. Are cluster bombs still a problem when used in this way?
well as much as i disagree w/ war i think if a person is to choose that career they have to expect to be killed or blown up or something like that...so, as long as the civilian populace or environment is NOT affected then i guess i will use the cliche war is hell. like my swat example...if someone like lee malvo was in a crowd holding them hostage and a swat member shot him w/ a sniper rifle i wouldn't be sad...but if they pulled out a shotgun and opened fire to get him it would be an entirely different story
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way