Obviously parents play a huge role in the education and development of their children. But it is absurd for them to have to undo all the damage public schooling has done. These schools are useless and mind numbing for children yet we continously keep paying money year after year into a failing system.
Tell that to the thousands and thousands of students currently using this system, with the backing of their parents, who succeed and are above and beyond those children of other nations. This measurement of "our children are behind those of other nations" is an average. This doesn't indicate to me that the system is doing damage. It indicates to me that some of our youth use the system to their advantage, as do their parents, and some use it as very expensive babysitting.
A school teacher shouldn't be expected to do raise anyone and they do a good enough job at not doing anything meaningful in the lives of the students they teach unless they are really rare and break the mold. So why send kids there?
Here's a suggestion. Get a fuckin teaching degree and spend some time in a some of the public school classrooms i've been in. Deal with the some of those kids and see how meaningless it is. i have one and i've done it! My wife has one and she does it! You act like you really know what the fuck you're talking about because you read some fucking magazine article, and then tell me to open MY mind. You,ve no place be telling ANYONE to open their mind, sis.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Here's a suggestion. Get a fuckin teaching degree and spend some time in a some of the public school classrooms i've been in. Deal with the some of those kids and see how meaningless it is. i have one and i've done it! My wife has one and she does it! You act like you really know what the fuck you're talking about because you read some fucking magazine article, and then tell me to open MY mind. You,ve no place be telling ANYONE to open their mind, sis.
You have a serious problem controling yourself. Your posts are almost always irrate, defensive and hostile. I will not spend anymore time replying to you because it is like talking to a 2 year old throwing a tantrum. Grow up.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Interesting articles. My wife and I (actually more her) homeschool our 2 boys and the second link you listed pretty much sums up many of our reasons as well.
I'm glad you enjoyed them. We have been reading a lot on this lately. At first I was very skeptical and thought these kids would grow up missing out but after all that I have read I completely changed my mind on the matter.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
The problem with schools is that they don't teach a child how to think instead they teach a child what to think. They grow up not knowing how to process what they experience and apply it. Experience is the only true way to learn. It is very destructive to day after day instill upon children just one way is correct and they must at all times submit to that authority.
I think fear of lawsuits has contributed to the delcine. The public school system is an elaborate day care program. Teachers are underpaid because they are not expected to think
talk to some people in the education system. NCLB is a catastrophic failure.
Talk to someone in the education system?! I am in the education system. When did i even comment on, let alone give an endorsement of NCLB? Honestly, i'd say its a joke. Most of my peers would agree. What has that got to do with people coming here and spouting off about stuff they know absolutely nothing about. "some kids said they don't like school..." Well gee, there's some news! Must be because the public school sytem is designed to brainwash children and teachers don't know how to think.
Let me give you a scenario or two. A teacher friend of mine has one student, fifth grader, for a year or two, he lived homeless with his meth addict mother
in a car washing in quicktrip bathrooms and never changing clothes. After a while mother declares to the child "i don't want you anymore and splits leaving this boy with an aunt. Same teacher services another boy. First grader after numerous CPS calls due to various degrees of abuse and neglect has the child removed to foster care pending parenting classes. Mother declares "classes?! Fuck that. If i have to take a class, I don't want him. Keep him". And splits. Thats the reality of public schools. Overall, i'd say they do pretty well.
I've already stated i have no problem with homeschooling if its done properly. Its a viable option for those who choose it. Don't come on here, however, flappin' your jaws about public schools messing up kids, doing nothing meaningful, and teachers not knowing how to think, because you read a magazine article. Open MY mind? Please.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
I'm glad you enjoyed them. We have been reading a lot on this lately. At first I was very skeptical and thought these kids would grow up missing out but after all that I have read I completely changed my mind on the matter.
I'll read the articles later...my thoughts before hand...
Public school offers kids what they need in order to learn and grow, but it is up to the parents to prepare their kids in such a way that the kids can break trhough some of the barriers and succeed. The barriers mainly being crowded classrooms, disruptive students, and sometimes aub=par teaching.
Home schooling allows a child to learn in a 'safe' environment which increase creativity and promotes out of the box thinking. This has some great benefits. It also can lead to a kid that has a hard time dealing with other people and living in the real world where criticism exists and can be severe.
Like I said, that's my thoughts based on what I have seen, read, etc. so far. I'll check out the article to see if it changes my opinion any.
we have one of the worst educational systems in the fucking world...how can the world's ONLY superpower, the richest nation, the most powerful nation, how can we be so far behind everyone else?
This may be a stupid question, but numbers aside, how can the world's lone superpower be so far behind everyone else? Anyone ever think about what work ethic means to a society?
Or is this just another number crunching, hate America thread?
I mean, we're not even the best at basketball anymore.
"Sarcasm: intellect on the offensive"
"What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."
I agree with you 100%. I would not trust a single teacher with teaching my kid how to think. That involves the teaching of morals and I don't trust teachers for that. The how to think is the parents' job.
I don't think that by "how to think," anyone is saying that the schools should push a particular viewpoint or morality. When I use that phrase, I'm talking about critical thinking skills. I'm talking about being able to read an essay and discern what the major and minor points are (a critical thinking skill that is sadly lacking around here, as I'm sure you've noticed), and how to write a reasoned rebuttal. I'm talking about knowing what to question and how, how to recognize what is established knowledge and what is not. The schools are notoriously bad at this, and I would argue that it is indeed part of their job.
It's something I have taught my kids, and the comments on their report cards are interesting. Some teachers will tell me that they're a pleasure to have in class because they're interested and engaged. Others tell me that they are disruptive and have a bad attitude because they "challenge" the teacher repeatedly. Interestingly, it's the AP teachers who enjoy my kids, and the teachers of standard classes who find them to be a nuisance. That tells me that the average kid is not being encouraged to THINK, only to memorize facts. Facts are important, but worthless if you don't know what to do with them. This is where the schools are really falling down on the job, and yes, I think it is largely due to standardized testing, although there are certainly other factors at work.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
I don't think that by "how to think," anyone is saying that the schools should push a particular viewpoint or morality. When I use that phrase, I'm talking about critical thinking skills. I'm talking about being able to read an essay and discern what the major and minor points are (a critical thinking skill that is sadly lacking around here, as I'm sure you've noticed), and how to write a reasoned rebuttal. I'm talking about knowing what to question and how, how to recognize what is established knowledge and what is not. The schools are notoriously bad at this, and I would argue that it is indeed part of their job.
It's something I have taught my kids, and the comments on their report cards are interesting. Some teachers will tell me that they're a pleasure to have in class because they're interested and engaged. Others tell me that they are disruptive and have a bad attitude because they "challenge" the teacher repeatedly. Interestingly, it's the AP teachers who enjoy my kids, and the teachers of standard classes who find them to be a nuisance. That tells me that the average kid is not being encouraged to THINK, only to memorize facts. Facts are important, but worthless if you don't know what to do with them. This is where the schools are really falling down on the job, and yes, I think it is largely due to standardized testing, although there are certainly other factors at work.
I attended only public schools from 3rd grade on and I believe I received the type of education that you are talking about. I think I got that education because my parents encouraged me and I was looking for it.
I think the need for some standardized testing has really been a result of the terrible teachers union that protects awful teachers. If this wasn't happenning, standardized testing wouldn't be important.
It is a teacher's job to teach your children. It is YOUR job to raise them. If you think your job as a parent ends at going to work and bringing home a paycheck, i'm sorry, but you are sorrowfully mistaken. It is not the function of the school to raise your children, teach them values and provide them with opinions. It is the schools job to teach them to read, write, function mathematically and provide them with other basic skills. It is YOUR job to raise them. i'll tell you right now from experience, the children that excel in school are the ones whose parents are actively involved in the child's development. Children with parents who go to work to provide for the family, and leave everything else up to the school, struggle... big time.
Did you even read my post? Seriously. I suggest you read it again.
If you want teachers who just cite from text books, you'll get what you have right now, unfortunately. I've had plenty of teachers who did a little more than just teaching us how to write, read and provided us with more than just the basic skills. Some of them had a huge affect on my life and I'm extremely glad I had them. And I bet many of my classmates are also extremely happy that they had these teachers, that these teacher did more than teach, that they partly raised them. You want to know why? Because I think, and frankly I would be shocked if anyone disagreed, that children shouldn't have to suffer for their parents shortcomings. I assume your parents raise you well. Not everyone is that lucky. You can blame this on the parents, and it's true they are to blame. But a child shouldn't have to suffer for it... so yeah I say teacher should get a little more involved and here in Belgium I can say 75% of my teachers got more than involved if they thought it was necessary.
The public education system is a fucking mind trip man. Especially if you enter college, which pretty much shows you that the majority of what you've learned is useless and/or wrong. My best examples come history classes. Everyone I've ever talked to hates history. "It's Boring." It's boring because what Americans have been taught since they were in diapers is basically a fairy-tale with some dates thrown in so it has SOME connection to the past. Columbus came over and was greeted by native americans. Everyone lives happily ever after. Pilgrims come over, the sit down for thanksgiving dinner. Everyone lives happily ever after. Wait, where are all of the native americans then?.....uh...they left...
What the fuck. I don't expect teachers to sit there and tell second graders that Columbus came over and pillaged all that he saw and forced native americans to become slaves. I do expect that as they grow, the truth is brought out. History isn't so boring when you're reading what actually happened!
Writing abilities are inadequate, math abilities are lacking and the overall school experience is seen as nothing more as a prison system in which you do your time, do what it takes to get by, and get the hell out. In florida we had a standardized titled the FCAT. FCAT scores determined the grade of the school which carried over into the amount of funding they got. What does that mean? We were trained on how to take tests. We went over how to spot obvious answers and how to rule out other answers to arrive to the most logical choice. We didn't really increase our knowledge of the test material, we just increased our knowledge on how to get past it with a half ass decent grade.
There were some instances in which my teachers strayed from the material in the textbooks and taught things which you never would have known about if someone hadnt nudged you in that direction. In most cases these teachers were either still in college, had just graduated, or were also working part time at a college facility. Even then, they were still pressured to make sure we knew how to pass the FCAT.
There also seems to be gaps in educational systems state to state. When I moved from Florida we were working on variable equations and such. I moved to South Carolina and they were being taught how to work simple functions on a calculator. By a video. When I moved back to Florida six months later, I was already pretty far behind what everyone else was learning.
I can only describe to you what I've experienced. I have no doubt that there are teachers who are actually teaching and making learning interesting and even fun sometimes. I also have no doubt that there are teachers who are simply teachers because they see it as a cake job with good vacation time.
I started questioning my education quite a while ago.
A Republican majority in House, Republican majority in the Senate and a Republican President, passed the No Child Left Behind legislation.
This wasn't a liberal policy; it was Bush's baby, which is failing by the way.
the original sponsor of the bill was Ed kennedy.
The bill was passed by a vote of 381 to 41 in the House and 87 to 10 in the Senate. The chairmen and ranking members of each chamber's education committee, Representatives John Boehner (R-OH) and George Miller (D-CA) and Senators Judd Gregg (R-NH) and Edward Kennedy (D-MA), joined the President for the signing of the bill. Seems pretty bipartisian
and it is failing, but you can't heap this all on Bush.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
Did you even read my post? Seriously. I suggest you read it again.
If you want teachers who just cite from text books, you'll get what you have right now, unfortunately. I've had plenty of teachers who did a little more than just teaching us how to write, read and provided us with more than just the basic skills. Some of them had a huge affect on my life and I'm extremely glad I had them. And I bet many of my classmates are also extremely happy that they had these teachers, that these teacher did more than teach, that they partly raised them. You want to know why? Because I think, and frankly I would be shocked if anyone disagreed, that children shouldn't have to suffer for their parents shortcomings. I assume your parents raise you well. Not everyone is that lucky. You can blame this on the parents, and it's true they are to blame. But a child shouldn't have to suffer for it... so yeah I say teacher should get a little more involved and here in Belgium I can say 75% of my teachers got more than involved if they thought it was necessary.
Again, when did i ever suggest that rote memorization of facts should be the only goal of education. When! And quite frankly, that isn't whats happening in American classrooms. Some, yes. Of course. But if someone thinks critical thinking isn't encouraged, they're wrong. Flat out wrong. As some her have mentioned, NCLB isn't held in real high regards by American teachers. Why do you think that is! I don't know what else to say to people who prefer to get all their information from from internet articles. Ask some of the types of students i mentioned who are the biggest influences in their lives and see what kind of response you get. There are plenty of them to ask. Look, the bottomline is America is filled with Doctors, lawyers, educators, engineers, etc., the majority of which are products of the public school system. We must not be doing all that much "damage".
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Again, when did i ever suggest that rote memorization of facts should be the only goal of education. When!
Right when I said teachers should raise our children. :rolleyes:
Ask some of the types of students i mentioned who are the biggest influences in their lives and see what kind of response you get. There are plenty of them to ask.
Do you mean the student with the meth addicted mothers? Could you clarify?
Look, the bottomline is America is filled with Doctors, lawyers, educators, engineers, etc., the majority of which are products of the public school system. We must not be doing all that much "damage".
It's also filled with bums, janitors, guys who work double shifts at McDonalds... I never said the system did damage, I said it's not a good system.
But anyway, do you think a child should suffer for their parents' shortcomings?
Right when I said teachers should raise our children. :rolleyes:
Do you mean the student with the meth addicted mothers? Could you clarify?
It's also filled with bums, janitors, guys who work double shifts at McDonalds... I never said the system did damage, I said it's not a good system.
But anyway, do you think a child should suffer for their parents' shortcomings?
You have no janitors in Belgium? What the hell point is that?
Of course a child shouldn't have to suffer from there parent's shortcomings, nor should the public schools system be blamed for them.
Look, i guarantee critical thinking is encouraged by American teachers in American clasrooms, and, a student who comes to school wanting to be educated, generally, will be. Bottom line.Some students have too much life holding them back, and some kids just don't care. Some would rather skip class and smoke pot or drink booze, and then return to class stoned, and take a nap. Again not the teacher's fault. But, hey, what the hell do i know about what goes on in American public school classrooms? All i do is teach in them. Sheesh.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
But anyway, do you think a child should suffer for their parents' shortcomings?
No I don't don't think a child should suffer for their parents' shortcoming, but it will happen. I also don't think people should die young or have painful deaths, but it will happen.
While we are hoping for things that will never I also think John Bonham should return from the dead, Led Zeppelin reunite and play a three year long date in my living room.
Government can pass every idiotic law it can think of and it will never overcome the fact that shitty parents have a negative impact on their kids and good parents have a positive impact on their kids.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
The bill was passed by a vote of 381 to 41 in the House and 87 to 10 in the Senate. The chairmen and ranking members of each chamber's education committee, Representatives John Boehner (R-OH) and George Miller (D-CA) and Senators Judd Gregg (R-NH) and Edward Kennedy (D-MA), joined the President for the signing of the bill. Seems pretty bipartisian
and it is failing, but you can't heap this all on Bush.
You're right Kennedy did sponsor the bill but Bush didn't follow through:
Many initial supporters of NCLB have since broken with the Bush Administration over what they claim is the White House's failure to adequately fund its own programs. Ted Kennedy, the legislation's initial sponsor, has claimed: "The tragedy is that these long overdue reforms are finally in place, but the funds are not."[5] Organizations such as ACORN (a community organization of low and moderate-income families and itself the subject of controversy [2]) have criticized the unwillingness of the federal government to "fully fund" the act. Neither the Senate nor the White House has requested funding up to the authorized levels for several of the act’s main provisions (for example President Bush requested only $13.3 of $22.75 billion in 2006) [3]. State education budgets are in very bad shape these days as declining tax revenues have forced many governors and legislatures to make deep cuts. While some new money may flow to districts as a result of NCLB, the amount falls far short of the cuts being made at the state level. Inadequate funding places a strain on local schools districts, many of which are not funded by the law. As just one example, under the Choice provisions of NCLB, LEAs must allow transfers of students from poorly performing Title I schools to good schools, but Title I funding will not follow that student to the new school. Many other provisions of NCLB such as a push for quality teachers and more professional development, while laudable, bring huge responsibilities to local districts that are not fully funded by NCLB (Jamie McKenzie 2003). Republicans in Congress have viewed these authorized levels as spending caps, not spending promises and have pointed out that President Clinton never requested the full amount of funding authorized under the previous ESEA law. [4] Some opponents argue that these funding shortfalls mean that schools faced with the system of escalating penalties for failing to meet testing targets are denied the resources necessary to remedy problems detected by testing.
"...believe in lies...to get by...it's divine...whoa...oh, you know what its like..."
No I don't don't think a child should suffer for their parents' shortcoming, but it will happen. I also don't think people should die young or have painful deaths, but it will happen.
While we are hoping for things that will never I also think John Bonham should return from the dead, Led Zeppelin reunite and play a three year long date in my living room.
Government can pass every idiotic law it can think of and it will never overcome the fact that shitty parents have a negative impact on their kids and good parents have a positive impact on their kids.
Finally, someone who gets it. You a product of public school by any chance? Or are you a product of good parents?
my parents taught me, from a very young age, to aspire to be whatever i wanted to be and to work hard and smart to get what i wanted. they taught me that my education was only as good as the work that i put into it because (though you can have a really good teacher vs. a good teacher vs. a bad teacher vs. a really bad teacher) a teacher, no matter their ability, cannot make YOU learn. so, i think there are, roughly, 4 types of people in the world, (1) children who can, (2) children who can with parental "coaching," (3) children who cannot, and, finally, (4) children who cannot because of a lack of parental "coaching" or parents sending a message of apathy.
i'm not sure if i buy the education as mechanization of society theory...i would believe it more in a town where industry has long been a huge thing (like an area where, for instance, a Ford assembly plant has long been located). i just don't feel like my education was aimed at such a thing. i was always told that my mind was the only boundary to how far i could go. i was always encouraged to read outside of the classroom...and we always discussed, discussed, and discussed.
there are people that will just never be able to be that which they aspire to be (because they do not have the mental resources to make it possible). there will always be people that can be whatever they want to be. and, there will always be people that can do great things, but fail to reach their potential. on occasion, there will be some people that lack certain abilities who overcome the odds and succeed at something which they should not. there are a myriad of factors that come into play in such a situation, generally, (1) psychological, (2) biological, and (3) environmental. to achieve such a mechanization of society, the system would have to be much more like a boarding school where the environmental factors could be controlled.
You have no janitors in Belgium? What the hell point is that?
It's the same point you made.
Of course a child shouldn't have to suffer from there parent's shortcomings, nor should the public schools system be blamed for them.
I agree with this. I just thought it was out that you stress parents should raise their kids, teachers teach. Because we don't live in a perfect world and a lot of parents don't care, so if a teacher then says 'well gee, that sucks but I'm just here to teach you how to read and write, sorry kid.' it gives the impression they don't care. And that's the impression I got from your post and I'm sorry if I was wrong.
Again not the teacher's fault.
Never said it was, I said they should be involved. And I never said they weren't by the way.
No I don't don't think a child should suffer for their parents' shortcoming, but it will happen. I also don't think people should die young or have painful deaths, but it will happen.
While we are hoping for things that will never I also think John Bonham should return from the dead, Led Zeppelin reunite and play a three year long date in my living room.
Government can pass every idiotic law it can think of and it will never overcome the fact that shitty parents have a negative impact on their kids and good parents have a positive impact on their kids.
So fuck it, right? No need to bother, shit happens? I'm glad my teacher never had that mentality.
It doesn't need to come from the government, in my opinion. A teacher can choose to have a positive influence in a kids life or at least try to.
So fuck it, right? No need to bother, shit happens? I'm glad my teacher never had that mentality.
It doesn't need to come from the government, in my opinion. A teacher can choose to have a positive influence in a kids life or at least try to.
You try because you care as an individual, not because of some government law. Governments cannot legislate caring.
I had teachers go way beyond the bounds of being a teacher when they saw I needed help, not because they were great teachers but rather because they were/are great people. Same goes for sport coaches, friends, extended family, neighbours and even strangers. Even with all the great people there willing to help it will almost never overcome all the damage done by poor parenting.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
. A teacher can choose to have a positive influence in a kids life or at least try to.
And most do! Thats the point. They care about there students and they do in fact encourage critical thinking. Those equipped, sober, and willing to pick it up do. What you call anger, BTW is merely frustration. Imagine a pediatrician reading some of those vaccination threads.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
And most do! Thats the point. They care about there students and they do in fact encourage critical thinking. Those equipped, sober, and willing to pick it up do. What you call anger, BTW is merely frustration. Imagine a pediatrician reading some of those vaccination threads.
You say you're a teacher? I'm glad you are getting frustrated about this, it shows you care.
Many initial supporters of NCLB have since broken with the Bush Administration over what they claim is the White House's failure to adequately fund its own programs. Ted Kennedy, the legislation's initial sponsor, has claimed: "The tragedy is that these long overdue reforms are finally in place, but the funds are not."[5] Organizations such as ACORN (a community organization of low and moderate-income families and itself the subject of controversy [2]) have criticized the unwillingness of the federal government to "fully fund" the act. Neither the Senate nor the White House has requested funding up to the authorized levels for several of the act’s main provisions (for example President Bush requested only $13.3 of $22.75 billion in 2006) [3]. State education budgets are in very bad shape these days as declining tax revenues have forced many governors and legislatures to make deep cuts. While some new money may flow to districts as a result of NCLB, the amount falls far short of the cuts being made at the state level. Inadequate funding places a strain on local schools districts, many of which are not funded by the law. As just one example, under the Choice provisions of NCLB, LEAs must allow transfers of students from poorly performing Title I schools to good schools, but Title I funding will not follow that student to the new school. Many other provisions of NCLB such as a push for quality teachers and more professional development, while laudable, bring huge responsibilities to local districts that are not fully funded by NCLB (Jamie McKenzie 2003). Republicans in Congress have viewed these authorized levels as spending caps, not spending promises and have pointed out that President Clinton never requested the full amount of funding authorized under the previous ESEA law. [4] Some opponents argue that these funding shortfalls mean that schools faced with the system of escalating penalties for failing to meet testing targets are denied the resources necessary to remedy problems detected by testing.
oh, that's just the beginning of the problems with this crappy legislation. It's a shame that the gov't won't fully fund it's mandates but they'll hold the states fully accountable. It's reasons like this that I'm scared of the gov't taking over anything to try and "help"
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
The problem with schools is that they don't teach a child how to think instead they teach a child what to think. They grow up not knowing how to process what they experience and apply it. Experience is the only true way to learn. It is very destructive to day after day instill upon children just one way is correct and they must at all times submit to that authority.
I am sure that it is a generalisation to think that all schools in the US are like that, although being some 20 000km away I can't be sure. Teaching a Student how to think has shifted to the major focus here in Australia. To give the student the skills and mental processes needed to make up their own mind, and to inspire a student to seek the truth for themselves is why I became a teacher. That being said there are probably teachers across the world who still try to program their students to develop into certain types of people- I just hope they are in the minority.
But you cannot teach a student how to think without helping them to understand their world, and to do this they need some 'content'. It has to be a balance. And a grim reality is that in giving the students the information that allows them to form their own opinions and ideas on the world, you must maintain some degree of control of the classroom. So there is another thing to factor into a 'balanced classroom'.
I will say that for the most part teachers care deeply about their responsabilities to the students and their families. However, teachers are fallible. We can have the best intentions and put in all of the hours but sometimes we are not going to get it right by every student every week. But for the most part, a good teacher is going to have a very positive influence on the young lives in their care.
I agree with whomever said it is too difficult to get rid of bad teachers. But as the paragraph above suggests, it is often hard to pick a bad teacher from a good teacher having a tough week, or even month. I think the worst thing that a teacher can develop is cynicism toward the students. My father (also a teacher/principal) once said that teachers should never be cynical of students, principals should never be cynical of teachers and administrators should never be cynical of principals.
I am wanting to spend a year teaching in Canada or the US in 2008/2009 and will probably have a better understanding of US and canadian schools then.
Comments
Tell that to the thousands and thousands of students currently using this system, with the backing of their parents, who succeed and are above and beyond those children of other nations. This measurement of "our children are behind those of other nations" is an average. This doesn't indicate to me that the system is doing damage. It indicates to me that some of our youth use the system to their advantage, as do their parents, and some use it as very expensive babysitting.
!
www.myspace.com/jensvad
I agree.
The democrats would've done worse.
-Enoch Powell
Here's a suggestion. Get a fuckin teaching degree and spend some time in a some of the public school classrooms i've been in. Deal with the some of those kids and see how meaningless it is. i have one and i've done it! My wife has one and she does it! You act like you really know what the fuck you're talking about because you read some fucking magazine article, and then tell me to open MY mind. You,ve no place be telling ANYONE to open their mind, sis.
I agree whole heartedly that critical thinking and life skills are not taught in public school at all and that is very much lacking.
You have a serious problem controling yourself. Your posts are almost always irrate, defensive and hostile. I will not spend anymore time replying to you because it is like talking to a 2 year old throwing a tantrum. Grow up.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I'm glad you enjoyed them.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I think fear of lawsuits has contributed to the delcine. The public school system is an elaborate day care program. Teachers are underpaid because they are not expected to think
Let me give you a scenario or two. A teacher friend of mine has one student, fifth grader, for a year or two, he lived homeless with his meth addict mother
in a car washing in quicktrip bathrooms and never changing clothes. After a while mother declares to the child "i don't want you anymore and splits leaving this boy with an aunt. Same teacher services another boy. First grader after numerous CPS calls due to various degrees of abuse and neglect has the child removed to foster care pending parenting classes. Mother declares "classes?! Fuck that. If i have to take a class, I don't want him. Keep him". And splits. Thats the reality of public schools. Overall, i'd say they do pretty well.
I've already stated i have no problem with homeschooling if its done properly. Its a viable option for those who choose it. Don't come on here, however, flappin' your jaws about public schools messing up kids, doing nothing meaningful, and teachers not knowing how to think, because you read a magazine article. Open MY mind? Please.
I'll read the articles later...my thoughts before hand...
Public school offers kids what they need in order to learn and grow, but it is up to the parents to prepare their kids in such a way that the kids can break trhough some of the barriers and succeed. The barriers mainly being crowded classrooms, disruptive students, and sometimes aub=par teaching.
Home schooling allows a child to learn in a 'safe' environment which increase creativity and promotes out of the box thinking. This has some great benefits. It also can lead to a kid that has a hard time dealing with other people and living in the real world where criticism exists and can be severe.
Like I said, that's my thoughts based on what I have seen, read, etc. so far. I'll check out the article to see if it changes my opinion any.
This may be a stupid question, but numbers aside, how can the world's lone superpower be so far behind everyone else? Anyone ever think about what work ethic means to a society?
Or is this just another number crunching, hate America thread?
I mean, we're not even the best at basketball anymore.
"What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."
Camden 5-28-06
Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
It's something I have taught my kids, and the comments on their report cards are interesting. Some teachers will tell me that they're a pleasure to have in class because they're interested and engaged. Others tell me that they are disruptive and have a bad attitude because they "challenge" the teacher repeatedly. Interestingly, it's the AP teachers who enjoy my kids, and the teachers of standard classes who find them to be a nuisance. That tells me that the average kid is not being encouraged to THINK, only to memorize facts. Facts are important, but worthless if you don't know what to do with them. This is where the schools are really falling down on the job, and yes, I think it is largely due to standardized testing, although there are certainly other factors at work.
I attended only public schools from 3rd grade on and I believe I received the type of education that you are talking about. I think I got that education because my parents encouraged me and I was looking for it.
I think the need for some standardized testing has really been a result of the terrible teachers union that protects awful teachers. If this wasn't happenning, standardized testing wouldn't be important.
Did you even read my post? Seriously. I suggest you read it again.
If you want teachers who just cite from text books, you'll get what you have right now, unfortunately. I've had plenty of teachers who did a little more than just teaching us how to write, read and provided us with more than just the basic skills. Some of them had a huge affect on my life and I'm extremely glad I had them. And I bet many of my classmates are also extremely happy that they had these teachers, that these teacher did more than teach, that they partly raised them. You want to know why? Because I think, and frankly I would be shocked if anyone disagreed, that children shouldn't have to suffer for their parents shortcomings. I assume your parents raise you well. Not everyone is that lucky. You can blame this on the parents, and it's true they are to blame. But a child shouldn't have to suffer for it... so yeah I say teacher should get a little more involved and here in Belgium I can say 75% of my teachers got more than involved if they thought it was necessary.
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What the fuck. I don't expect teachers to sit there and tell second graders that Columbus came over and pillaged all that he saw and forced native americans to become slaves. I do expect that as they grow, the truth is brought out. History isn't so boring when you're reading what actually happened!
Writing abilities are inadequate, math abilities are lacking and the overall school experience is seen as nothing more as a prison system in which you do your time, do what it takes to get by, and get the hell out. In florida we had a standardized titled the FCAT. FCAT scores determined the grade of the school which carried over into the amount of funding they got. What does that mean? We were trained on how to take tests. We went over how to spot obvious answers and how to rule out other answers to arrive to the most logical choice. We didn't really increase our knowledge of the test material, we just increased our knowledge on how to get past it with a half ass decent grade.
There were some instances in which my teachers strayed from the material in the textbooks and taught things which you never would have known about if someone hadnt nudged you in that direction. In most cases these teachers were either still in college, had just graduated, or were also working part time at a college facility. Even then, they were still pressured to make sure we knew how to pass the FCAT.
There also seems to be gaps in educational systems state to state. When I moved from Florida we were working on variable equations and such. I moved to South Carolina and they were being taught how to work simple functions on a calculator. By a video. When I moved back to Florida six months later, I was already pretty far behind what everyone else was learning.
I can only describe to you what I've experienced. I have no doubt that there are teachers who are actually teaching and making learning interesting and even fun sometimes. I also have no doubt that there are teachers who are simply teachers because they see it as a cake job with good vacation time.
I started questioning my education quite a while ago.
the original sponsor of the bill was Ed kennedy.
The bill was passed by a vote of 381 to 41 in the House and 87 to 10 in the Senate. The chairmen and ranking members of each chamber's education committee, Representatives John Boehner (R-OH) and George Miller (D-CA) and Senators Judd Gregg (R-NH) and Edward Kennedy (D-MA), joined the President for the signing of the bill. Seems pretty bipartisian
and it is failing, but you can't heap this all on Bush.
Again, when did i ever suggest that rote memorization of facts should be the only goal of education. When! And quite frankly, that isn't whats happening in American classrooms. Some, yes. Of course. But if someone thinks critical thinking isn't encouraged, they're wrong. Flat out wrong. As some her have mentioned, NCLB isn't held in real high regards by American teachers. Why do you think that is! I don't know what else to say to people who prefer to get all their information from from internet articles. Ask some of the types of students i mentioned who are the biggest influences in their lives and see what kind of response you get. There are plenty of them to ask. Look, the bottomline is America is filled with Doctors, lawyers, educators, engineers, etc., the majority of which are products of the public school system. We must not be doing all that much "damage".
Right when I said teachers should raise our children. :rolleyes:
Do you mean the student with the meth addicted mothers? Could you clarify?
It's also filled with bums, janitors, guys who work double shifts at McDonalds... I never said the system did damage, I said it's not a good system.
But anyway, do you think a child should suffer for their parents' shortcomings?
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You have no janitors in Belgium? What the hell point is that?
Of course a child shouldn't have to suffer from there parent's shortcomings, nor should the public schools system be blamed for them.
Look, i guarantee critical thinking is encouraged by American teachers in American clasrooms, and, a student who comes to school wanting to be educated, generally, will be. Bottom line.Some students have too much life holding them back, and some kids just don't care. Some would rather skip class and smoke pot or drink booze, and then return to class stoned, and take a nap. Again not the teacher's fault. But, hey, what the hell do i know about what goes on in American public school classrooms? All i do is teach in them. Sheesh.
While we are hoping for things that will never I also think John Bonham should return from the dead, Led Zeppelin reunite and play a three year long date in my living room.
Government can pass every idiotic law it can think of and it will never overcome the fact that shitty parents have a negative impact on their kids and good parents have a positive impact on their kids.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
You're right Kennedy did sponsor the bill but Bush didn't follow through:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind
Failure to fully fund the act
Many initial supporters of NCLB have since broken with the Bush Administration over what they claim is the White House's failure to adequately fund its own programs. Ted Kennedy, the legislation's initial sponsor, has claimed: "The tragedy is that these long overdue reforms are finally in place, but the funds are not."[5] Organizations such as ACORN (a community organization of low and moderate-income families and itself the subject of controversy [2]) have criticized the unwillingness of the federal government to "fully fund" the act. Neither the Senate nor the White House has requested funding up to the authorized levels for several of the act’s main provisions (for example President Bush requested only $13.3 of $22.75 billion in 2006) [3]. State education budgets are in very bad shape these days as declining tax revenues have forced many governors and legislatures to make deep cuts. While some new money may flow to districts as a result of NCLB, the amount falls far short of the cuts being made at the state level. Inadequate funding places a strain on local schools districts, many of which are not funded by the law. As just one example, under the Choice provisions of NCLB, LEAs must allow transfers of students from poorly performing Title I schools to good schools, but Title I funding will not follow that student to the new school. Many other provisions of NCLB such as a push for quality teachers and more professional development, while laudable, bring huge responsibilities to local districts that are not fully funded by NCLB (Jamie McKenzie 2003). Republicans in Congress have viewed these authorized levels as spending caps, not spending promises and have pointed out that President Clinton never requested the full amount of funding authorized under the previous ESEA law. [4] Some opponents argue that these funding shortfalls mean that schools faced with the system of escalating penalties for failing to meet testing targets are denied the resources necessary to remedy problems detected by testing.
Finally, someone who gets it. You a product of public school by any chance?
www.myspace.com/jensvad
i'm not sure if i buy the education as mechanization of society theory...i would believe it more in a town where industry has long been a huge thing (like an area where, for instance, a Ford assembly plant has long been located). i just don't feel like my education was aimed at such a thing. i was always told that my mind was the only boundary to how far i could go. i was always encouraged to read outside of the classroom...and we always discussed, discussed, and discussed.
there are people that will just never be able to be that which they aspire to be (because they do not have the mental resources to make it possible). there will always be people that can be whatever they want to be. and, there will always be people that can do great things, but fail to reach their potential. on occasion, there will be some people that lack certain abilities who overcome the odds and succeed at something which they should not. there are a myriad of factors that come into play in such a situation, generally, (1) psychological, (2) biological, and (3) environmental. to achieve such a mechanization of society, the system would have to be much more like a boarding school where the environmental factors could be controlled.
from my window to yours
It's the same point you made.
I agree with this. I just thought it was out that you stress parents should raise their kids, teachers teach. Because we don't live in a perfect world and a lot of parents don't care, so if a teacher then says 'well gee, that sucks but I'm just here to teach you how to read and write, sorry kid.' it gives the impression they don't care. And that's the impression I got from your post and I'm sorry if I was wrong.
Never said it was, I said they should be involved. And I never said they weren't by the way.
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So fuck it, right? No need to bother, shit happens? I'm glad my teacher never had that mentality.
It doesn't need to come from the government, in my opinion. A teacher can choose to have a positive influence in a kids life or at least try to.
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right, that's a situation where bad parenting can be combatted by a good teacher.
from my window to yours
I had teachers go way beyond the bounds of being a teacher when they saw I needed help, not because they were great teachers but rather because they were/are great people. Same goes for sport coaches, friends, extended family, neighbours and even strangers. Even with all the great people there willing to help it will almost never overcome all the damage done by poor parenting.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
And most do! Thats the point. They care about there students and they do in fact encourage critical thinking. Those equipped, sober, and willing to pick it up do. What you call anger, BTW is merely frustration. Imagine a pediatrician reading some of those vaccination threads.
You say you're a teacher? I'm glad you are getting frustrated about this, it shows you care.
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oh, that's just the beginning of the problems with this crappy legislation. It's a shame that the gov't won't fully fund it's mandates but they'll hold the states fully accountable. It's reasons like this that I'm scared of the gov't taking over anything to try and "help"
I am sure that it is a generalisation to think that all schools in the US are like that, although being some 20 000km away I can't be sure. Teaching a Student how to think has shifted to the major focus here in Australia. To give the student the skills and mental processes needed to make up their own mind, and to inspire a student to seek the truth for themselves is why I became a teacher. That being said there are probably teachers across the world who still try to program their students to develop into certain types of people- I just hope they are in the minority.
But you cannot teach a student how to think without helping them to understand their world, and to do this they need some 'content'. It has to be a balance. And a grim reality is that in giving the students the information that allows them to form their own opinions and ideas on the world, you must maintain some degree of control of the classroom. So there is another thing to factor into a 'balanced classroom'.
I will say that for the most part teachers care deeply about their responsabilities to the students and their families. However, teachers are fallible. We can have the best intentions and put in all of the hours but sometimes we are not going to get it right by every student every week. But for the most part, a good teacher is going to have a very positive influence on the young lives in their care.
I agree with whomever said it is too difficult to get rid of bad teachers. But as the paragraph above suggests, it is often hard to pick a bad teacher from a good teacher having a tough week, or even month. I think the worst thing that a teacher can develop is cynicism toward the students. My father (also a teacher/principal) once said that teachers should never be cynical of students, principals should never be cynical of teachers and administrators should never be cynical of principals.
I am wanting to spend a year teaching in Canada or the US in 2008/2009 and will probably have a better understanding of US and canadian schools then.