when did it become "ok" to kill civilians...?

inmytree

after reading many threads pertaining to the War with Lebanon...it seems one disturbing trend has emerged...it seems that some think, based on certain circumstances or rationalizations, that it's "ok" when civilians are killed in the bombing of Lebanon...

so, I have to ask, when did it become "ok" to kill civilians...?

for the record: I don't think either side in this conflict is "right"...I do feel they are both wrong...

Open

Eyewitness: Mass burial in Lebanon
By Cal Perry
CNN


Sunday, July 30, 2006; Posted: 4:33 a.m. EDT (08:33 GMT)

As the fighting between Israel and Hezbollah rages, both sides bury their dead. CNN's Cal Perry witnessed a mass burial in southern Lebanon. Readers should be aware that his report includes graphic descriptions.

A woman weeps as she watches a mass burial in southern Lebanon.
Image:


Mass bombings, mass burial (2:13)
TYRE, Lebanon (CNN) -- Eight days ago, the Lebanese Army buried 87 bodies in a mass grave in the city of Tyre. Today, they are laying another 34 in the ground.

Everyone is covering their face to keep out the stench as Lebanese soldiers remove dozens of bodies from the back of a truck. The first body is a day-old baby -- killed in an Israeli airstrike, according to the Lebanese Army. On her coffin a marking shows she had no name. (Watch as Tyre buries its dead -- 2:13)

They've lined up the coffins on the sidewalk; each has either a name or a marking that says "unknown." (Watch as Cal Perry describes the reality of covering the conflict -- 2:58)

All have numbers. Coffin No. 104 has three names on it - Ali, Mohammed and Talib - all children. Nearby, Fatawi Horani is screaming and crying. Her granddaughter Marim, 15, was killed, she says, while trying to flee the fighting.

Three soldiers begin to struggle with a large body bag. Maggots are pouring from the bag - blood is seeping onto the ground. When they get the body into the coffin, the lid arches as doctors hammer nails into it.

Children are beginning to gather. It is images such as these that pass down a hatred of Israel to another generation.

A little girl, Maana, is standing nearby, a bandage on her left arm. Her father tells me she was wounded by Israeli jets - but all the passengers in the car in front of them were killed.

Without having to count, it's clear that more members of the international press are here than bodies being buried. Journalists were asked to come here to witness the collected horror.

A Shiite sheik arrives and begins talking to members of the media. I pull him aside and ask him one question: "What message would you send to the people of America?" "Israel?" he asks. "No," I reply. "America."

"I love the people of America. It's the government I hate. Tell the American people that we received their gift. The missile that they gave to Israel - we have received it, and this is the result," he says, motioning to the coffins.

I thank him, but he says nothing to me - just glares, turns abruptly and walks away.

The mayor says that the bodies will be buried here temporarily. When the fighting stops, relatives will be able to come claim their dead and bury them in their hometowns.

know1

When did it become "ok" to kill anyone?

Milestone

I'm pretty sure that the USA made it okay to kill innocent civilians during the Vietnam War......and now, pretty much everyone does it.

rightondude

They have to kill and target civilians. Why do you think everyone does it?

It forces these people to go running to their government demanding something be done. That shifts power away from the people and back into the hands of the Govt.

ogre1213

it became ok when pussies with rockets use civilian houses to launch them and hide there

bootlegger10

Milestone wrote:

I'm pretty sure that the USA made it okay to kill innocent civilians during the Vietnam War......and now, pretty much everyone does it.

Right, right. Again it is all America's fault. It's a broken record with you liberals. Quit hating and think.

Milestone

bootlegger10 wrote:

Right, right. Again it is all America's fault. It's a broken record with you liberals. Quit hating and think.

I'm no liberal. I was all in favor of destroying Vietnamese villages.

Long live President Johnson!

rightondude

Funny, so was I until I figured it out...

Open

bootlegger10 wrote:

Right, right. Again it is all America's fault. It's a broken record with you liberals. Quit hating and think.

I thought it was good to "Stay the course" not "Flip flop", is your memory so short that you dont even remember your own rhetoric? It's that short memory that allows bush to get away with what he's done. It's not about liberal or conservative..it's about humanity.

Ahnimus

Milestone wrote:

I'm no liberal. I was all in favor of destroying Vietnamese villages.

Long live President Johnson!

Lyndon Johnson was part of the JFK assasination. He also staged the Gulf of Tonken incident so he could go to war with Vietnam. He was probably the worst president in American history.

bootlegger10

Open wrote:

I thought it was good to "Stay the course" not "Flip flop", is your memory so short that you dont even remember your own rhetoric? It's that short memory that allows bush to get away with what he's done. It's not about liberal or conservative..it's about humanity.

Where does "Stay the course" fit in here? Who is flip flopping? I said that it is ridiculous that libs blame America for everything, even if it's been happening since the beginning of time? Stay the course? What the hell are you talking about?

Milestone

Ahnimus wrote:

Lyndon Johnson was part of the JFK assasination. He also staged the Gulf of Tonken incident so he could go to war with Vietnam. He was probably the worst president in American history.

I know. I was being sarcastic.

I still think Bush is a worse president than Johnson.....but pretty damn close.

Heatherj43

Its not okay to kill civilians. What Israel is doing is wrong by all measures. I find it shameful that the US backs Israel. Wrong is wrong, period.

rebornFixer

I am aware of only two or maybe three posters who seem to suggest on a regular basis that killing Lebanese civilians is justified.
I think this view is in the distinct minority, even among so-called Israel supporters.

rebornFixer

Ahnimus wrote:

Lyndon Johnson was part of the JFK assasination. He also staged the Gulf of Tonken incident so he could go to war with Vietnam. He was probably the worst president in American history.

Groan ... The Gulf of Tonkin incident was staged? Come on, man! Do America's enemies ever actually attack, or is everything just a government conspiracy?

bootlegger10

What is Israel to do? The world is not going to come to its aid if Hezbollah keeps attacking it. The civilians' blood is on the hands of Hezbollah as much as it is Israel. It is not Israel's fault that Hezbollah chooses to shoot its weapons in civilian neighborhoods. It sucks that children die, but what if their parents decided enough was enough and stood up for their country against Hezbollah? Never happened. And now they are reaping the consequences of letting a terrorist organization entrench itself in the community.

REPEAT: The world will not come to Israel's aid when it comes to Hezbollah or any terrorist group. Talks have never worked for Israel, even though it has usually been the one to want to compromise.

Edit: Also, why are people saying that Israel is losing support because of their actions? Muslims already hated them, most of Europe hate them, and then every other country except the US and Great Britain are indifferent to them. They entered this situation hated, and they'll be hated when its over.

Ahnimus

reborncareerist wrote:

Groan ... The Gulf of Tonkin incident was staged? Come on, man! Do America's enemies ever actually attack, or is everything just a government conspiracy?

Wikipedia wrote:

In 1995, retired Vietnamese General Nguyen Giap meeting with former Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, categorically denied that Vietnamese gunboats had attacked American destroyers on Aug. 4, 1964 while admitting to the attack on August 2. A taped conversation was released in 2001 of a meeting several weeks after passage of the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, revealing that Robert McNamara expressed doubts to President Johnson that the attack had even occurred.

In October, 2005 the New York Times reported that Robert J. Hanyok, a historian for the United States National Security Agency, concluded that the NSA deliberately distorted intelligence reports passed on to policy-makers regarding the August 4 incident. He concluded that the motive was not political but was probably to cover up honest intelligence errors. [2]

Mr. Hanyok's conclusions were initially published within the NSA in the Winter 2000/Spring 2001 Edition of Cryptologic Quarterly, about five years before being revealed in the New York Times article. According to intelligence officials, the view of government historians that the report should become public was rebuffed by policymakers concerned that comparisons might be made to intelligence used to justify the Iraq war that commenced in 2003.

Reviewing the NSA's archives, Mr. Hanyok concluded that the NSA had initially (probably innocently) misinterpreted North Vietnamese intercepts so as to make it appear there was an attack on August 4. Midlevel NSA officials almost immediately discovered the error, he concluded, but covered it up by altering documents, so as to make it appear the second attack had happened. Robert McNamara, who was defense secretary at the time of the incident, said in October, 2005 that he believed intelligence reports regarding the Gulf of Tonkin incident were decisive to the war's expansion.

On November 30, 2005, the NSA released the first installment of previously classified information regarding the Gulf of Tonkin incident, including Mr. Hanyok's article, "Skunks, Bogies, Silent Hounds, and the Flying Fish: The Gulf of Tonkin Mystery, 2-4 August 1964" Cryptologic Quarterly, Winter 2000/Spring 2001 Edition, Vol. 19, No. 4 / Vol. 20, No. 1.

The Hanyok article states that intelligence information was presented to the Johnson administration "in such a manner as to preclude responsible decisionmakers in the Johnson administration from having the complete and objective narrative of events of 4 August 1964." Instead, "only information that supported the claim that the communists had attacked the two destroyers was given to Johnson administration officials."

The NSA has declassified a lot of documents pertaining to the Gulf of Tonkin incident. I'd suggest reading over them. Thisone in particular is a report by an independant investigator stating "That the incident didn't happen".