2nites Dem Debate
beachdweller
Posts: 1,532
I know we all have our likes and dislikes in regards to candidates, but tonight was the worst debate, in regards to questions, I've seen yet. Now, when they have opportunities to push the candidates to give specific answers on issues, they spent more than half the time talking about the newscycle pop culture bs.
give us something to argue about, not the bs ABC directing them through. I truly am missing cable news at the moment, lol.
Also, when is someone on the right gonna smarten up and have a John McCain one man debate? Though him on Hardball wasn't to bad. Sometimes McCain actually says things I can get behind, but them I remember who's bitch he is.
give us something to argue about, not the bs ABC directing them through. I truly am missing cable news at the moment, lol.
Also, when is someone on the right gonna smarten up and have a John McCain one man debate? Though him on Hardball wasn't to bad. Sometimes McCain actually says things I can get behind, but them I remember who's bitch he is.
"Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)
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Tonight's debate was lame..... they asked questions that had to do with the latest drama..... Bosnia, bitter, and preachers.... not really issues
here's to the state of George W
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01/06/00 dublin
23/08/06 dublin
11/09/06 paris
18/06/07 london
17/08/09 manchester
18/08/09 london
no, here's to the reality of the 2 party system. nothing is stopping obama or clinton from pushing these issues everyone claims they want to hear. but they won't b/c all 3 of them know they are full of shit!
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
http://www.c-spanarchives.org/library/index.php?main_page=product_video_info&products_id=204728-1
Let me know what you guys thought...since we all wanna discuss these issues, tell me what you think about his take on them.
Because sadly, the Democrats won't debate Nader and they get the police involved to force him off the property where the debates are held. That's right, he can't even be in the building during the Presidential debates, much less the on stage.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
shit, nader said he wouldn't run if the dems took some of his issues (which are actually more inline w/ what the ppl want, moreso than the 3 corporate candidates) and ppl like obama refused to even talk to him!!! b/c they know they have a lot of ppl's votes by default since they have a -D next to their name instead of an -R so they know they never have to cater to anyone but the investors in their campaigns (in obama's case the nuclear power industry, banking/financial industry and pharmaceutical lobbyists and whatnot...)
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
saying the Dem's won't debate Nadar? so? he's not shown himself to be a viable candidate. The Rep's won't either.
Why not have a Nadar and Ron Paul Independents debate (dam, sorry forgot Paul's staying a Rep, still would be nice), might be one of the best things to happen in politics in my lifetime.
Though, regardless of all the feelings around here about Clinton and Obama, having a woman and african american running is still a big deal in this country, so blowing them off, is as bad as those that blow off the Nadar's and others like him.
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that sounds a bit sexist and racist, don't you??? their skin color and and gender mean shit to me. what matters are their ISSUES. a corporate whore is a corporate whore regardless of what color or sex they may be.
how does one show themeselves to be a viable candidate if they aren't allowed to even be seen?? it's hard to prove how viable you are when you aren't even allowed to be heard on mainstream tv, doncha think? and look at the last election, nader had a ticket to a debate, he was even invited inside by Faux Op/Ed and the police told him he would be arrested if he didn't leave!!!
and i'm a bit confused...ppl keep saying it's naders fault bush won in 2000...so apparently is he is at least somewhat viable, eh?
they only let perot in b/c he had money, which is what our 2 party system is all about
btw, do you know who runs the debates? corporations
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
had to stop listening, heard it all before, I agree with some of his points, others he is over stating, some have been around for years, and yet no one cares enough to jump on board and change.
Bush/Cheney impeachment is a pipe dream, first, though I want it to happen, I'm somewhat confident, that they had lawyers involved in most of the stuff we think that qualify for impeachment, and would be able to defend against it. Still would have been nice if this happened. Funny, no one is doing much about replacing the Congressional reps that haven't done their jobs, which I think if far worse a crime.
I've heard this one often and agree with it, but again, no movement, and is one of the reasons I know Nadar will never be President ever under any circumstances, and I'm happy about him not being commander in chief, because it ain't as simple as everyone wants to make it. Districts are favored for one party of the other in most of the country, and that means the parties have the organization in place to keep a third party from ever getting close to a minor minority, let alone more. So how do we get this changed when it's the two parties in charge that control any change here?
the two party system has worked just fine for this country on the surface, for the most part it hasn't presented any problems to upset the masses. That's a problem.
I always love hearing Ralph talk, and especially about grass roots changes, case I truly think it'll take a lot of time, and come from the bottom up, not the Pressidency down.
The two parties are in a position to handle any issue before it gets to a point of actually having the masses rebell, but regardless of any of this, we must each fight for change...
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had to stop it? The speech is over an hour and a half...I only posted it 20 mins ago.
Nevermind, then....it's obvious you've got your ears closed to it
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
yeah, it means a lot to a country that is divided on the surface, anything positive is good, and it may be an asset in dealing with the rest of the world which couldn't hurt. doesn't solve a specific issue, but if it can do some of these things, then working toward fixing some issues might be more viable. Taking corporate money out of the situation won't solve half the problems we have in this country. As for corporate whores, whatever, keep throwing those great stereotypes around, it's really helpful in getting anyone to listen. It's an inherent part of our trouble system, and most politicians are getting some of it.
as for Nadar not being seen, a lot of ways to communicate these days, and it's not the underlying problem.
you must be confused, cause I've said nothing about Bush winning because of Nadar here, but I know Nadar supporters generally think Bush/Gore same same, which is ignorant in my opinion. Don't mind those that voted for Nadar at all if that's who they want to be president, but some that make the argument and the choice to vote for him, cause the two parties are the same irritates me. I understand many issues you are passionate about wouldn't necessarilly be fixed, but this country would be in far better shape, and that's not a lessor of two evils bs argument, it's a fact. sorry for this rant, I'm still bitter, not Obama bitter, but bitter just the same.
See, things that Nadar, Kucinich, Ron Paul talk about, and are correct about, don't resonate with most Americans because it doesn't effect their daily life. People seem to be ok with being left to live life.
Maybe something will happen that will change this on a large level, but I'm dumbfounded that what has been happening hasn't had any real effect on the masses. Seems we're still ok. Maybe if we can get a draft, and $10 a gallon gas...hmmm
I understand the fight for change, am a part of it, but I'm also very critical of the very people I listen to. We've got to find a way to communicate to people in a way that they understand how it effects them in a better way.
you know Kucinich had somewhat of a forum, I understand he didn't get much time in debates, yet no one really listened...how do we overcome this shortcoming? it's been a constant, and it's not just a tv access thing. People are tired of sensational arguments, even simple and true, it doesn't hit people right, it's a truth, a sad truth, but it's only an obstacle, and it can be overcome.
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evidently you're a kindergardner and can't read. I said I heard it before, hit clip times throughout the speech. Again, I agree with many things Nadar says, go back and read or learn to, cause I said this to.
Nadar is'n't the end all to our problems, he only hits on some areas, we need Nadar's voice, and he's done some important things, still not Presidential material to me. I don't think that fight is worth fighting, Obama's fine with me, and working to get good people in city and state offices, in Congress, hopefully as a nation we can come together on things like public financing of the presidential race, which McCain and Obama are for, that would be a good step closer for a third party candiate.
One obstacle that I don't know how we'll get around is re-zoning of districts so they are balanced. That's another huge step we need.
I know you'll have some complacency comment, heard it enough from you, but I don't generalize or demonize people for not doing what I want.
no closed ears here, including listening to Nadar only.
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Those candidates absolutely do talk about the things americans are concerned about. Polls have shown the public is behind their stances in single payer, corruption in government, corporate welfare and crime, the bloated military budget (which Obama wants to expand and modernize), changing our foriegn policy and the list goes on.
Not one of the 3 mainstreamers take those issues on. I listed these issues of Nader's and backed them with serveral polls, from major networks even. It's not that these candidates don't resonate with the american people...it's that these candidates aren't funded by the big bucks of special interests and if you don't get the big bucks then you don't get the air time. Money talks while good candidates are ignored. Millions watch the debates and the major media outlets for their coverage of the race and these guys are shut out. If you are fine with that and wanna excuse that, be my guest...it's really not surprising these days. But my guess is, if it were Obama being shut out like this...you might have a problem then. It's a shame when we quit caring about what's right in order to just root for our guy. I don't care who it is, I wouldn't sit here on this board and act like it's a-okay to keep deserving candidates from being heard on a more national level on primetime tv like the other guys all get to enjoy...like it's their little hour long infomercial.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I'm not saying that people, when asked, won't say what they want. I'm saying they aren't willing to do anything about it, that is fact, because all these issues have been around for a long time, and are worse under Bush, but they were here under Reagan, Bush, and Clinton also. Hell, Lincoln spoke about the dangers of corporations/businesses having more power than the people. That was a bit of go I believe.
if Nadar has money, I think he can get some time on tv. It's a free country, no one deserve jack, you have to make you way. Ask Frederick Douglas, hell ask Dennis Kucinich or Ron Paul. Ask Gravel, what the hell is he getting airtime for and Nadar isn't. Don't blame the world, Nadar can make opportunity.
you can blah blah blah about what's right or people voting for their guy, last time I checked, the U S was over 70% Christian, and over 90% believe in God. You can't prove God, every Christian hand picks what they will and will not follow in the bible. Though not following God's law's doesn't seem to bother them. So in a country, let alone world of blind devotion you're surprised that people will vote for or follow someone that is a good person, has done good in their lives, and can inspire them?
forgot, they're all sheep, only about 2% or 3% of the voting public actually has a clue, they know if all.
Obama isn't a whore or worse cause he works within the system and has fallen to the same bad practices as most before him. He won't due what you want, but he'll be a good President.
See as I've said, I agree with what Nadar points out as wrong in many cases, but he's been stating the same things, and added more important ones during the W years, and has made no headway, and it's a copout to say it's the media's fault. The media is part of the problem, but others that the establishment don't want to be heard are heard.
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when you said you 'had to stop it'...I took it as you were watching it now. My bad. No need to stop acting like a lady.
If they are so for 'public financing of elections' then I guess they wouldnt have any problem with debating Nader. If anyone deserves it, he does. He gets the most 3rd party support every year aside from Perot.
I never said I thought he was the answer to end all of their problems. Obama isn't either, btw...but Nader looks a hell of a lot better to me when I compare the two side by side....no question. I happen to like a lot of what he has to say, especially when he gets on a roll about the stuff the other guys are happy to keep swept under the rug....which is the biggest reason Nader is needed in the presidential races. If he wasn't there, those guys wouldn't even have to address those issues. Now if they don't, they lose voters. That's called having a choice...democracy.
I 'demonize' Obama for saying one thing and then doing another...not because he's not doing what I want him to. If he were straight forward then I wouldn't have nearly the problem I do with him. It's the dishonesty that gets me...and the phoniness
I read and listen to more stuff about Obama than you do, guaranteed. I argued points of his plans I don't like, I argued parts of his voting record I don't like and that contradicts what he's been saying, I've argued what I don't like in his speeches and point out how parts are hypocritcal, I've looked thorugh his past to see what his accomplishments are...so save it.
The difference is I read the critical pieces about Obama, too. I look for what both sides are saying.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
' As for corporate whores, whatever, keep throwing those great stereotypes around, it's really helpful in getting anyone to listen. It's an inherent part of our trouble system, and most politicians are getting some of it.'
if it's 'an inherent part of our trouble[d] system and most politicians are getting some of it' then how is it a stereotype????
nader has never said both gore and bush were the same, he said something like they are the same on a lot of issues.
kucinich may have been allowed into some debates, while others he was excluded from and had to go to court to be let in some, but what sound bytes did you ever see of him on the news?? only stuff about ufos and such (interestingly enough obama was asked if he believed in ufos right after kucinich and he didn't answer but instead went on some sermon about there being life on earth that needs to be taken care of)
are you in kindergarten, too? i didn't say YOU said nader cost gore the election but LOTS of ppl here do...in fact if you re-read my post i said 'ppl keep saying nader cost gore the election', i did not say beachdweller said....
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
out of curiosity, what has obama done to make him presidential material to you?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
and what of the 04 election when nader was invited in by Faux Op/Ed but the head of the debates (which is run by corporations) told the police to arrest him if he came in??? you see nothing wrong w/ that?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
yeah, no one ever does that, you rule...you are so much better than us all...ok, a bit unnecessary, but I listen to the good and the bad, a lot of the bad is him being a politician, and there are issues I don't like his stance on, but there is not, never has been, and never will be a candidate that will have it all right ever ever ever, unless non-humans become President. I'll take Obama's bad for President over Nadar's. Nadar can't get anything done in that role, I'm not voting for Obama cause I don't believe Nadar can win, I don't want him in that role.
to fix this country it needs to be broken, and it can't all be done at once, let's be honest here, we have huge problems, it'll be the people from the bottom up, not the government from the bottom down. I know you don't agree, fine, but that in no way means you have any clue about anything. I haven't said you are wrong, I've said I disagree with things, I think the means in which things need to happen are different, and I think Nadar among others is better off in a different environment, regardless that he is partly to blame IMO for some of the reasons his message hasn't gotten to more people.
It's not so simple IMO. This country is a bunch of individuals, it's easy to market things to us, it only takes a 30 second blurb right? Trying to get a message to the entire country, the tv can't even do that.
follow the money??? the truth in primetime repeated in several debates, great message, have any effect?
I'm not saying anything is wrong with what you believe, I believe a lot of it, disagree with methods, also don't feel any absoluteness about disowning our current system, why can' t change be fought for within the current system while change outside is also in the works?
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good luck on that! i'm still waiting for a reply to my outline of obama's health care plan...i see your funded by nuclear power got no replies...i thought ppl were interested in both sides? yet it's like pulling teeth to get most obama supporters, save maybe a handful here, to actually answer any questions about obama w/ anything other than an 'i don't care' or if you push them enough you get an 'i don't owe an explanation to you for anythin!!!!'
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Ummm...okay dude. I just debunked the bullshit you were trying to pin on me. But I do rule, so thanks
I don't excuse corruption with the 'he's a politician, whaddya expect?!' line. You're going to have to come up with some better reasoning than that for me to ignore catering to special interests while lying to the people about how against that practice you are. I have no use for those kind of politicians. And Nader's not my perfect candidate, either. He's pretty damn good but Kucinich was better. He isn't running any longer and was bullied out of debates by the weaselly Dems, as well. You say Nader can't get anything done, I say Obama won't get anything done...not on the issues that really matter to me, anyways. Sure he'll throw us bones here and there to keep people thinking the Dems are the good guys but he won't even attempt to fix these problems he says he will in speeches and the office will remain corrupt and dishonest. I don't want to see another dishonest Dem like Obama in that role. You disagree with me and I with you. I'm not telling you what to do here. I'm only debating with you about this. I don't think for one minute, there is anything I could bring up that would change you guy's mind about Obama....because frankly, I posted plenty of shit that makes me VERY uneasy about the guy and it hasn't seemed to affect anyone here.
Are you talking in riddles? I don't have a clue but I'm not wrong??
Okay, well I'll try to take this on. I try to not support people or things I see as part of the problem no matter what level it is on, be it local or presidential. Progress can be made on all fronts and I'm not going to support what I see as wrong, no matter where it is.
I feel that our current system has had enough chances to clean it's act up. I'm not excusing them anymore...you can. I'll be right here disagreeing with you but I can't make you do anything.
The system takes people for granted that vote for the lesser of 2 evils and in doing so have become more corrupt and so entrenched with these corporations that the corporations now have control of our govt not us, the people, the voters...the ones who have to live with these policies put forth by these equally corrupted parties that affect our lives everyday and affect the lives of the whole world, as well. You guys, I am almost certain, will eventually get fed up, too....it might not be now, but you will. I already am and I'm only here to tell you why and put my logic up against yours.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I actually watched this debate tonight with my wife who is a Democrat. I'm registered Republican but hate all of the fuckers in Washington equally with the exception of a few.
My wife was leaning toward Barack before this debate. She admittedly hasn't been paying that much attention but she, like many, like the way he talks. I admit the guy is a powerful speaker. But, is that enough?
Anyway after watching the debate I was suprised how well Hillary came off. She definately has an up hill battle with many because her honesty is in question. That's really a Washington issue though not just a Hillary issue. The entire system is plagued with liars. It basically comes down to who is lying the least.
My feeling is that Barack is in trouble in PA. Hillary won the debate last night in my opinion. Barack came off as tired and at times searching for the right words. Just off. Hillary was personable (you know it matters), and clearly defined her goals for the economy and Iraq (suprisingly). Not saying I agree with her but she made a good case. She is endorsed by the governor Ed Rendell, the mayor of Philadelphia Mike Nutter and some other heavy hitters in PA politics.
Look for a win in PA for Hillary on Tuesday.
http://inthepresenttense.blogspot.com/
funny, ppl bitch about issues not being discussed at debates and when you show someone actually discussing issues they want none of it
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Hillary winning in PA on Tuesday is a pretty bold prediction don't you think? :rolleyes:
Of course she'll win PA on Tuesday. That has been the common asumption forever. Now a few short weeks ago she was ahead by about 30 points. Today it averages about 6. She will not win by nearly the margin she needs to or originally expected to.
i don't see how she won that lame ass debate though. i don't know what you were watching.
Hillary: "You served on a board with that weather underground guy".
Obama: " i was eight at the time of his detestable actions. Your husband PARDONED two members of the weather underground".
Hillary: *crickets* "we can move on" *crickets*.
It was a horribly moderated debate anyway. "We're about out of time, let's really quickly talk about gas." How stupid.
Did you say "debate"? What happened last night was a fucking ambush by the Clinton camp.
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i totally agree, but i think it backfired a little. i'm, of course, biased a little, but i think Obama came off looking better tan she did given the circumstances. It was obvious she wanted to keep it in the gutter. It was also obvious he didn't. He was able to turn the tables on her a couple of times.
i agree it was a horrible excuse for a debate and i was left wondering if hillary gave stephanopolous a blow before hand as a down payment, or waited until afterwards to make good on the deal.