Israel/Muslim issue

beachdweller
beachdweller Posts: 1,532
edited April 2008 in A Moving Train
what would happen to a muslim country that nuked Israel? if it destroyed it, would the west retaliate and nuke that country or just invade/bomb to remove it's government?

If the west didn't nuke it/destroy it in retaliation, and only the government officials are killed/removed, then they have basically become martyrs...I think the rest of the extreme muslim world can live with that. probably a majority of the moderate muslims might be fine with it to?

this is a question that came up in a conversation about John McCain's stance on not allowing Iran to get a nuke at any costs.

To not get to this point, how to they, Israel and muslims find peace when a holy place holds more importance than human life?

Can anyone solve this here tonight while we wait for Ed's setlist :)
"Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)

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  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    beachdweller wrote:
    what would happen to a muslim country that nuked Israel? if it destroyed it, would the west retaliate and nuke that country or just invade/bomb to remove it's government?

    Firstly, I imagine that Israel would retaliate with it's own nuclear arsenal.
    beachdweller wrote:
    If the west didn't nuke it/destroy it in retaliation, and only the government officials are killed/removed, then they have basically become martyrs...I think the rest of the extreme muslim world can live with that. probably a majority of the moderate muslims might be fine with it to?

    :confused:

    beachdweller wrote:
    this is a question that came up in a conversation about John McCain's stance on not allowing Iran to get a nuke at any costs.

    So, Iran possessing a nuclear weapon = Iran firing a nuclear weapon? :confused:
    beachdweller wrote:
    how to they, Israel and muslims find peace when a holy place holds more importance than human life?

    Israel can begin by abiding by international law. The same law which the U.S insisted Sadaam Hussain abide by before they tore his country apart and then hanged him from the gallows.
    beachdweller wrote:
    Can anyone solve this here tonight while we wait for Ed's setlist :)

    Sorry, I can't help ya.
  • PearlsGirl
    PearlsGirl Posts: 257
    beachdweller wrote:
    what would happen to a muslim country that nuked Israel? if it destroyed it, would the west retaliate and nuke that country or just invade/bomb to remove it's government?

    yes, the US, being practically the only country in the world that fully supports Israel, would blow the shit out of any country that did so. the US would then invade and throw that country's government out and then attempt to establish a democracy. as we can see, iraq is working so well in that manner, *rolls eyes*.
    beachdweller wrote:
    If the west didn't nuke it/destroy it in retaliation, and only the government officials are killed/removed, then they have basically become martyrs...I think the rest of the extreme muslim world can live with that. probably a majority of the moderate muslims might be fine with it to?

    no, the majority of muslims are peaceful and do not support any jihadist government. extremists only rule two proper governments, lebanon and afghanistan. most muslims prefer religious freedom and follow what the Qur'an says in the traditional sense. Extremists don't stand a chance outside of their own factions. which person thinks its a good time to get blown up? extremism in Islam is similar to that of any other religion, but more close to Christian extremism.
    beachdweller wrote:
    this is a question that came up in a conversation about John McCain's stance on not allowing Iran to get a nuke at any costs.

    here's a question. shouldn't the US get rid of their nuclear arsenal? israel, india, pakistan??
    beachdweller wrote:
    To not get to this point, how to they, Israel and muslims find peace when a holy place holds more importance than human life?

    most of israelis and palestinians agree that they would rather live together peacefully. ever notice that it's literally a small group of people that cause so much chaos? yeah, most jews and muslims get along. they share so much in common. thanks to their governments though, everything is blown out of proportion. Hamas and the current Israeli government will not cooperate, and plus, Israel should be tried for crimes against humanity. I'm taking about their own version of concentration camps that exists with in the "WALL." fuck it.
    Don't let the world bring you down, not everyone here is that fucked up and cold. Remember why you came and while you're alive, experience the warmth before you grow old.

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  • beachdweller
    beachdweller Posts: 1,532
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Firstly, I imagine that Israel would retaliate with it's own nuclear arsenal.

    I think the point was Israel wouldn't be in any shape to do this.

    :confused:

    sorry, it was a point that was made. I think it was meant that if the west didn't destroy the country, and only removed the leadership, that it many of the muslim world would feel this was a win? Another thread of this point went into the thought of a muslim, even an extremist being ok with destroying Jerusalum.


    So, Iran possessing a nuclear weapon = Iran firing a nuclear weapon? :confused:

    it's an example, and was tied to the McCain argument. Not saying this is exactly the point of them wanting an nuke, or any other muslim nation that currently doesn't have one, but why can't they have one? Not that I want more nukes in the world, or more countries to have them, but what do we do to control a country that has been a sponsor of terrorism for many years, and yes, I think we, in our imperialist ways, have terrorised?

    Israel can begin by abiding by international law. The same law which the U.S insisted Sadaam Hussain abide by before they tore his country apart and then hanged him from the gallows.

    I agree this needs to happen, but it's such a small part of the problem, I think extremist could care less what they do, they want them destroyed.

    not taking sides, and I didn't start the discussion, just thought I'd try and summarize and bring it here, probably need to expand on it more.



    Sorry, I can't help ya.[/quote]
    "Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)

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  • beachdweller
    beachdweller Posts: 1,532
    PearlsGirl wrote:
    no, the majority of muslims are peaceful and do not support any jihadist government. extremists only rule two proper governments, lebanon and afghanistan. most muslims prefer religious freedom and follow what the Qur'an says in the traditional sense. Extremists don't stand a chance outside of their own factions. which person thinks its a good time to get blown up? extremism in Islam is similar to that of any other religion, but more close to Christian extremism.

    be nice if more peaceful muslims felt a need to stand up to extremist of their religion.

    they should know by watching americans, that sitting back and doing nothing accomplishes nothing in regards to changing what is wrong.
    "Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)

    Stop by:
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  • PearlsGirl
    PearlsGirl Posts: 257
    beachdweller wrote:
    be nice if more peaceful muslims felt a need to stand up to extremist of their religion.

    they should know by watching americans, that sitting back and doing nothing accomplishes nothing in regards to changing what is wrong.

    when was the last time you heard people doing something great making the news? surprisingly enough, in jordan, syria, and saudi arabia, if you are known to be in an associated terrorist organization, you are automatically put in jail. syria less so, there are many organizations that the government is affiliated with, but won't admit to. this war against "terrorism" has benefitted these countries in more ways than what is shown on the news.
    Don't let the world bring you down, not everyone here is that fucked up and cold. Remember why you came and while you're alive, experience the warmth before you grow old.

    Best two days of my life: Oasis at MSG and Pearl Jam at the Gorge.
  • beachdweller
    beachdweller Posts: 1,532
    PearlsGirl wrote:
    when was the last time you heard people doing something great making the news? surprisingly enough, in jordan, syria, and saudi arabia, if you are known to be in an associated terrorist organization, you are automatically put in jail. syria less so, there are many organizations that the government is affiliated with, but won't admit to. this war against "terrorism" has benefitted these countries in more ways than what is shown on the news.

    plenty of individuals that have known associations with terrorists organizations walk the streets of those countries. it's a law you refer to, that isn't enforced in an absolute way, maybe it depends on who you are and who you know.

    the war against terrorism has benefited far to many in America also...BlackWater, Haliburton, etc...
    "Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)

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  • PearlsGirl
    PearlsGirl Posts: 257
    beachdweller wrote:
    plenty of individuals that have known associations with terrorists organizations walk the streets of those countries. it's a law you refer to, that isn't enforced in an absolute way, maybe it depends on who you are and who you know.

    the war against terrorism has benefited far to many in America also...BlackWater, Haliburton, etc...

    true fact. i almost applied to a job at haliburton, yeah, i was that desperate. and fuck black water. here guys, here's 500k, now go be snipers! wtf. isn't that what the marines are for ;o) and they're paid a meek salary.

    anyway, while all of that is true, the fact of the matter is, IF there is going to be a resolution to the arab/israeli conflict, the US, along with the UN, NATO, and the EU need a firm stance on a two state system with Jerusalem as the capitol. the wall needs to go, and the first step is the destruction of any all all radical organizations that pose any sort of threat to the situation. syria, lebanon, jordan, saudi arabia, the UAE, Egypt, Iraq, and Iran need to work with these organizations for anything to really happen. Cooperation is key.
    Don't let the world bring you down, not everyone here is that fucked up and cold. Remember why you came and while you're alive, experience the warmth before you grow old.

    Best two days of my life: Oasis at MSG and Pearl Jam at the Gorge.
  • beachdweller
    beachdweller Posts: 1,532
    PearlsGirl wrote:
    true fact. i almost applied to a job at haliburton, yeah, i was that desperate. and fuck black water. here guys, here's 500k, now go be snipers! wtf. isn't that what the marines are for ;o) and they're paid a meek salary.

    anyway, while all of that is true, the fact of the matter is, IF there is going to be a resolution to the arab/israeli conflict, the US, along with the UN, NATO, and the EU need a firm stance on a two state system with Jerusalem as the capitol. the wall needs to go, and the first step is the destruction of any all all radical organizations that pose any sort of threat to the situation. syria, lebanon, jordan, saudi arabia, the UAE, Egypt, Iraq, and Iran need to work with these organizations for anything to really happen. Cooperation is key.

    a friend of mine had an infantry private in his platoon have to pull guard duty on a Haliburton bus driver in Baghdad in 2003. By his freakin self, what can he do? absolutely nothing. Oh, and the bus driver, an American, was getting $10k a month, the private, about $1000. I can't imagine being in that position, though you don't think twice about it when you are in that position, it's part of the job, but now...hells no, lol
    "Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)

    Stop by:
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  • GauchoB
    GauchoB Posts: 224
    beachdweller wrote:
    what would happen to a muslim country that nuked Israel? if it destroyed it, would the west retaliate and nuke that country or just invade/bomb to remove it's government?

    If the west didn't nuke it/destroy it in retaliation, and only the government officials are killed/removed, then they have basically become martyrs...I think the rest of the extreme muslim world can live with that. probably a majority of the moderate muslims might be fine with it to?

    this is a question that came up in a conversation about John McCain's stance on not allowing Iran to get a nuke at any costs.

    To not get to this point, how to they, Israel and muslims find peace when a holy place holds more importance than human life?

    Can anyone solve this here tonight while we wait for Ed's setlist :)
    Just Google Israel's Samson option. They can handle themselves.
  • GauchoB
    GauchoB Posts: 224
    PearlsGirl wrote:
    yes, the US, being practically the only country in the world that fully supports Israel, would blow the shit out of any country that did so. the US would then invade and throw that country's government out and then attempt to establish a democracy. as we can see, iraq is working so well in that manner, *rolls eyes*.



    no, the majority of muslims are peaceful and do not support any jihadist government. extremists only rule two proper governments, lebanon and afghanistan. most muslims prefer religious freedom and follow what the Qur'an says in the traditional sense. Extremists don't stand a chance outside of their own factions. which person thinks its a good time to get blown up? extremism in Islam is similar to that of any other religion, but more close to Christian extremism.



    here's a question. shouldn't the US get rid of their nuclear arsenal? israel, india, pakistan??



    most of israelis and palestinians agree that they would rather live together peacefully. ever notice that it's literally a small group of people that cause so much chaos? yeah, most jews and muslims get along. they share so much in common. thanks to their governments though, everything is blown out of proportion. Hamas and the current Israeli government will not cooperate, and plus, Israel should be tried for crimes against humanity. I'm taking about their own version of concentration camps that exists with in the "WALL." fuck it.

    Not if Barak Hussein Osama is elected
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    beachdweller wrote:
    they should know by watching americans, that sitting back and doing nothing accomplishes nothing in regards to changing what is wrong.

    Right, coz America has been setting a great example to the world these past 50 years, right? LMAO!

    America has changed what is wrong has it? Care to elaborate?
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    beachdweller wrote:
    what would happen to a muslim country that nuked Israel? if it destroyed it, would the west retaliate and nuke that country or just invade/bomb to remove it's government?

    If the west didn't nuke it/destroy it in retaliation, and only the government officials are killed/removed, then they have basically become martyrs...I think the rest of the extreme muslim world can live with that. probably a majority of the moderate muslims might be fine with it to?

    this is a question that came up in a conversation about John McCain's stance on not allowing Iran to get a nuke at any costs.

    To not get to this point, how to they, Israel and muslims find peace when a holy place holds more importance than human life?

    Can anyone solve this here tonight while we wait for Ed's setlist :)

    if israel got even an inkling that a muslim country(or any other country for that matter) had possession of a nuclear weapon capable of attacking them, they would not wait to be attacked. they would do something about it before it got to the attack stage . they've done it before and im sure no doubt theyd do it again. :)


    has john mccain said how hes gonna fix the woes of the average american. or is his platform based entirely on dodgy foreign policy and those evil muslim terrorists?
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  • Collin
    Collin Posts: 4,931
    beachdweller wrote:
    what would happen to a muslim country that nuked Israel? if it destroyed it, would the west retaliate and nuke that country or just invade/bomb to remove it's government?

    If the west didn't nuke it/destroy it in retaliation, and only the government officials are killed/removed, then they have basically become martyrs...I think the rest of the extreme muslim world can live with that. probably a majority of the moderate muslims might be fine with it to?

    Dropping a nuclear bomb is one of the most heinous, brutal acts ever. Dropping a nuke in relatiation would not only kill millions of innocent people but it would also kill the spirit, the ideas and ideals the Western world is supposed to embody.

    Moreover, "just" invading or bombing a country to remove its government isn't any better. Bombs and invasion mean deaths of innocent people.

    Also, I noticed you said "killed/removed". What do you mean killed? I know it is the reality, but what civil country just excutes people without a trial?
    this is a question that came up in a conversation about John McCain's stance on not allowing Iran to get a nuke at any costs.

    At any cost. Sounds seriously fucked up.
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  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Firstly, I imagine that Israel would retaliate with it's own nuclear arsenal.


    So, Iran possessing a nuclear weapon = Iran firing a nuclear weapon? :confused:


    With the way they are expected to be treated yes...yes I'd say it's a concern. Under normal circumstances...probably not.
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  • Open
    Open Posts: 792
    beachdweller wrote:
    be nice if more peaceful muslims felt a need to stand up to extremist of their religion.

    they should know by watching americans, that sitting back and doing nothing accomplishes nothing in regards to changing what is wrong.

    How do you know their not? There have been many protests in Iran against the goverment mainly by university students. Do you really think it would make the news here?
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    beachdweller wrote:
    be nice if more peaceful muslims felt a need to stand up to extremist of their religion.

    Be nice if more people in the western world stood up to the governments/corporations who are fucking us, and fucking poor brown people in our name, on a daily basis.
    beachdweller wrote:
    they should know by watching americans, that sitting back and doing nothing accomplishes nothing in regards to changing what is wrong.

    I'm still confused by this sentence. :confused:
  • lazymoon13
    lazymoon13 Posts: 838
    Open wrote:
    How do you know their not? There have been many protests in Iran against the goverment mainly by university students. Do you really think it would make the news here?

    protesting against the government isnt allowed in Iran. if it is, this happens.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3879535.stm

    http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2007/10/127E1D9B-927F-4211-9349-377EE2E19D64.html
  • Open
    Open Posts: 792
    lazymoon13 wrote:
    protesting against the government isnt allowed in Iran. if it is, this happens.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3879535.stm

    http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2007/10/127E1D9B-927F-4211-9349-377EE2E19D64.html

    Beachdweler mentioned that moderate muslims need to raise their voice. It does happen at great risk to those that do it. We just dont hear about it here. I was born in Iran and have family thier; there are lots more protests that dont get reported here.
  • lazymoon13
    lazymoon13 Posts: 838
    Open wrote:
    Beachdweler mentioned that moderate muslims need to raise their voice. It does happen at great risk to those that do it. We just dont hear about it here. I was born in Iran and have family thier; there are lots more protests that dont get reported here.

    what are the consequences of such protests?
  • Open
    Open Posts: 792
    lazymoon13 wrote:
    what are the consequences of such protests?

    Arrests, deaths, and beatings. The whole argument about "muslims" speaking out; is just fingerpointing to me. It's like gang violence; nobody likes it but I dont see too many people taking time out of their lives to go confront the Crips and tell them to stop gangbanging.

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