Fear mongering returns to Canadian politics ...

rebornFixerrebornFixer Posts: 4,901
edited September 2006 in A Moving Train
I agree with the Canadian Muslim Congress on this one ... Layton is a boob, truly. He actually sounds like he's running against Bush. He also neglects to mention that the Afghanistan mission was not engineered by Harper and the Conservatives ... He's banking on Canadians being dumb enough to forget that. And Kyoto? Does he read the news, ever? Emission levels in all signatory nations are UP, not down. The thing doesn't work, but the left pretends that it does so they can bash Harper.
He's got some good points on the Afghan mission, but he seems to think that a pullout now is somehow a good idea. We agreed to be there for a certain amount of time! Why is it so hard to keep our word? Once the mission is up, then we can debate new courses of action.


http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/10092006/2/national-layton-calls-canadians-punish-tories-keeping-troops-afghanistan.html

Layton calls on Canadians to punish Tories for keeping troops in Afghanistan

Sun Sep 10, 5:01 PM
By Alexander Panetta

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QUEBEC (CP) - NDP Leader Jack Layton urged his troops to prepare Sunday for an election campaign he seems determined to fight against U.S. President George W. Bush.

He mentioned the U.S. president at least five times in a closing address to his party's convention and accused the Tory government of being his servant.

On climate change, on the softwood-lumber deal and on the Afghan conflict, Layton accused the Tories of selling out Canadian interests to satisfy Bush and Prime Minister Stephen Harper of being a lackey of the Republican White House.

"He's become a cheerleader for President George Bush and he's leading Canada down the wrong track on every issue that matters to ordinary people," Layton said.

Layton's anti-war, anti-Bush message appeared to delight the party masses, who showered him with a 92-per-cent approval rating in a leadership vote.

He ended his speech by telling 1,500 delegates that the weekend gathering was the start of a months-long election campaign.

Layton lauded the NDP's decision over the weekend to become Canada's first political party to officially call for the withdrawal of Canadian troops from Afghanistan.

"Canadians are not war-mongers," Layton said.

"Canada doesn't send its soldiers to the front lines just because our prime minister wants to remain in Washington's good graces."

On climate change, Layton derided Harper on the Kyoto accord.

"Stephen Harper wants to follow George Bush in reneging on Canada's international commitments," he said.

And on the recent softwood lumber deal with the U.S., Layton said Harper should be ashamed.

"For Stephen Harper it was more important to be George Bush's buddy," he told delegates. "It's more important to follow him than to fight for Canadian workers."


The last attempt by a Canadian political party to stake its electoral fortunes on the unpopular U.S. president met with spectacular failure.

The Paul Martin Liberals tried much the same strategy in the most recent campaign, which resulted in a minority Conservative government.

New Democrats are betting the message will play better for them because, unlike Martin, they were not in power when Canada failed to meet climate-change targets, stalled in softwood negotiations and sent troops to Afghanistan.

Layton took the helm of the party in January 2003 and has seen the NDP's seat count in the House of Commons rise significantly in two consecutive elections.

He unveiled the party's five priorities for the next federal election, mimicking the Tories keep-it-simple strategy from the last election.

Layton said the NDP will focus on affordable housing, quality education, helping seniors, protecting the environment, and withdrawing from Afghanistan.

The NDP leader said there is a time and place for Canadians to fight but Afghanistan is not that time or place.

"There is no plan for victory. There is no exit strategy. There is no sign that it is making the Taliban weaker or the world safer...," Layton said.

"So here is what we're going to commit to do. We are going to support our troops. We are going to support them in the best way we can. We're going to bring our troops home."

The Muslim Canadian Congress accused the NDP and Layton of playing politics with the lives of Afghan citizens and Canadian troops.

"By asking for an immediate withdrawal of Canadian troops, Mr. Layton demonstrates a naivete about the situation in Afghanistan," Farzana Hassan, congress president, said in a statement.

Withdrawing now would amount to handing the country back to the Taliban and al-Qaida, she said.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    Layton really makes me laugh when he keeps comparing Harper and the Conservatives to the US and Bush, competely forgetting that it is a NATO mission and obligation. But his tactic of wanting to act completely independant on the UN and NATO is a 100% Bush and American strategy. I think it is horrible strategy on his part. He just comes across as having no principals.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • I like Layton. the fact that he persists on bringing bush into the debate is because lately, Canadian policy HAS been lockstep with the Americans which is not a model that most Canadians want (IMO). Although the Conservatives did not bring us into Afghanistan, the mission has become much more offensive and aggressive since the conservatives have come into power. Furthermore, we still really don't know what our role is supposed to be. It is the uncertainty of his intentions of our troops that bothers me. What are we fighting for? He hasn't answered. Kyoto does have its flaws. I admit that but the fact that its emissions haven't achieved its goals yet is not necessarily a flaw with the protocol but the countries who are or aren't preparing the necessary steps. I agree that it needs some work and I think it is a bit misguided in some respects.
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    "Stephen Harper wants to follow George Bush in reneging on Canada's international commitments," he said.
    Layton makes me laugh with this one. Does he not realize that Canda has a commitment to NATO to have troops in Afghanistan until February 2009? Is he really so stupid to think that pulling all troops is not reneging on an international commitiment?

    I'd love to hear from the NP supporters regarding this?

    At least they did vote down the resolution comparing the Canadian military to terrorist. They support the troops, my asss.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • sourdough wrote:
    Although the Conservatives did not bring us into Afghanistan, the mission has become much more offensive and aggressive since the conservatives have come into power.

    True, but this is a coincidence of timing. The Liberals signed on for the mission knowing that it was a NATO enterprise, not a peacekeeping assignment. The intent was to commit Canadian troops to combat from the start. If such is not NDP policy, fine ... But it is dishonest to focus solely on Harper's involvement here. And the goal of the mission has been made clear, both by the Canadian government and by NATO itself. Disagreeing with the value of the goal is not the same thing as the goal itself being ambiguous. Where Layton does have a point is in the fact that specifics are lacking at this point in time, something I think NATO needs to redress.

    As for Kyoto ... I am inclined to think that the spirit of the agreement is good, but the execution is horribly flawed. It has no teeth. Its a handshake, that's about it. And no one has taken it very seriously, at least so far.
  • surferdude wrote:
    Layton makes me laugh with this one. Does he not realize that Canda has a commitment to NATO to have troops in Afghanistan until February 2009? Is he really so stupid to think that pulling all troops is not reneging on an international commitiment?

    I'd love to hear from the NP supporters regarding this?

    At least they did vote down the resolution comparing the Canadian military to terrorist. They support the troops, my asss.

    Exactly. The commitment is actually in having troops there! Does he think his party faithful are dumb? What kind of country would we be, to basically pull out and leave our allies high and dry? Not to mention the thrashing our reputation would take. Honestly, I don't think Layton would do it. He's just playing politics, exploiting Canadian feelings about war deaths.
  • PickrPickr Posts: 161
    Afghanistan is an honorable mission. I am so tired of hearing that because a soldier dies we have to pull out. As sad as it is a soldier is sometimes supposed to die. We can't keep being just a peacekeeping nation in these times. I am proud of our troops there, just as proud as I am of our grandparents before us who fought injustices.
    Stix and Stones may break my bones, but More than Words will never hurt me.
  • Pickr wrote:
    Afghanistan is an honorable mission. I am so tired of hearing that because a soldier dies we have to pull out. As sad as it is a soldier is sometimes supposed to die. We can't keep being just a peacekeeping nation in these times. I am proud of our troops there, just as proud as I am of our grandparents before us who fought injustices.

    Because we don't fight many wars these days, we are very sensitive to casualties. We are just not used to it. But I agree with you ... I'm proud of the troops too.
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    Pickr wrote:
    Afghanistan is an honorable mission. I am so tired of hearing that because a soldier dies we have to pull out. As sad as it is a soldier is sometimes supposed to die. We can't keep being just a peacekeeping nation in these times. I am proud of our troops there, just as proud as I am of our grandparents before us who fought injustices.
    I heard commentary on the weekend making fun of Layton's stance by showing what role Layton would have had Canda play in WWII. There was no exit strategy for that war, there was no mission other than to win and win was only identified as crush the Germans, civilian casualties were accepted, troop casualties a given and Canada was even at the table begging for more dangerous missions to prove their worth. Layton would have had Canada pulled out of WWII long before D-Day. Layton would have made a disgrace of Canada then and he will now and in the future if given the chance.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • surferdude wrote:
    I heard commentary on the weekend making fun of Layton's stance by showing what role Layton would have had Canda play in WWII. There was no exit strategy for that war, there was no mission other than to win and win was only identified as crush the Germans, civilian casualties were accepted, troop casualties a given and Canada was even at the table begging for more dangerous missions to prove their worth. Layton would have had Canada pulled out of WWII long before D-Day. Layton would have made a disgrace of Canada then and he will now and in the future if given the chance.

    The NDP party historically has a pacifist streak, to the point where some of the founding members actually argued that Canada should have no involvement in WW-II.
    I don't know ... Pacifism is a great ideology when there is no threat. But I cannot understand how people could make such an argument about WW-II. Its as bad as warmongering, just taken to the other extreme.
  • MrBrianMrBrian Posts: 2,672
    In times of war, one would think that now is the best time to have peacekeepers around, or is it peacemakers that we need? Nevertheless, Canada is not fighting injustices, they are helping america cause them.

    Rememeber, america is the same country that invaded iraq, tortures, funds terrorist groups and so on, yet canada is cool with helping them out? sure canada is not in iraq and such but they are still helping the same country that is doing these wrong things out.

    So effectively what "canada" is doing is just helping one murderer hunt down and kill another murderer.

    It's hypocritical of canada to help america out like this unless right after canada hunts down all these "terrorists" in afghanistan they (canada) then go after america, because america is guilty of....... shit, america is guilty of more crimes than most of these countries put together.

    Is canada happy being on the same side of a country that does so much wrong? and even you reborn understands the many many crimes America is guilty of, do you not have a problem with them? what should be done about america? Would a fight against "the land of the free" not be a just battle?
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    The NDP party historically has a pacifist streak, to the point where some of the founding members actually argued that Canada should have no involvement in WW-II.
    I don't know ... Pacifism is a great ideology when there is no threat. But I cannot understand how people could make such an argument about WW-II. Its as bad as warmongering, just taken to the other extreme.
    Layton is just trying to score political points in a stupid way. He may quite rightly have a bone to pick with NATO but he sure is doing a good job of not realizing it.

    He scares me when he doesn't think that Canada should keep NATO or NORAD commitments. The weird part is that he doesn't realize that such an isolationist strategy is 100% American in nature.

    He makes good points about how Canada should be on more peace-keeping missions and doing more for the poor around the world. But I'm totally confused about what peace-keeping missions are possible without NATO or UN involvement, and why would they want anything to do with Canada at that point. If I was part part of NATO or the UN I'd be thinking that Canada is there until one of their soldiers gets killed then they're tucking tail and running home.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • surferdudesurferdude Posts: 2,057
    MrBrian wrote:
    In times of war, one would think that now is the best time to have peacekeepers around, or is it peacemakers that we need? Nevertheless, Canada is not fighting injustices, they are helping america cause them.

    Rememeber, america is the same country that invaded iraq, tortures, funds terrorist groups and so on, yet canada is cool with helping them out? sure canada is not in iraq and such but they are still helping the same country that is doing these wrong things out.

    So effectively what "canada" is doing is just helping one murderer hunt down and kill another murderer.

    It's hypocritical of canada to help america out like this unless right after canada hunts down all these "terrorists" in afghanistan they (canada) then go after america, because america is guilty of....... shit, america is guilty of more crimes than most of these countries put together.

    Is canada happy being on the same side of a country that does so much wrong? and even you reborn understands the many many crimes America is guilty of, do you not have a problem with them? what should be done about america? Would a fight against "the land of the free" not be a just battle?
    To be clear are you advocating that Canada pull out of NATO?

    Afghanistan is not an American mission, Canada is not supporting the US. Canada is meeting it's NATO (international) commitments, obligations and responsibilities.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • I am one who feels unthreatened by the beast we call Afhganistan....same as I felt pre 9/11......these troops (I respect them and all) think they are defending Canadian freedoms...lol......my favorite punch line in this matter....at this moment I am actually happy we do not have a larger military because all that would do is entrain us more into these proxy wars......but that is just my opinion....I say bring them home....we can do better deliberating for peace than we can for "fighting for peace"......
  • The NDP party historically has a pacifist streak, to the point where some of the founding members actually argued that Canada should have no involvement in WW-II.
    I don't know ... Pacifism is a great ideology when there is no threat. But I cannot understand how people could make such an argument about WW-II. Its as bad as warmongering, just taken to the other extreme.

    I see no threat or have witnessed any threat in Canada.....to me we are dragging our name through the mud.....
  • I see no threat or have witnessed any threat in Canada.....to me we are dragging our name through the mud.....

    Not directly from Afghanistan, but we have faced at least one threat from radical Islamic ideologies, and who knows how many more are in the works?
  • PickrPickr Posts: 161
    Not directly from Afghanistan, but we have faced at least one threat from radical Islamic ideologies, and who knows how many more are in the works?

    It's just a matter of time...We are not immune to any threat, we can only hope our response to it is one that is well thought out.
    Stix and Stones may break my bones, but More than Words will never hurt me.
  • I don't like sounding paranoid ... I just think that its bound to happen. We have this delusion of immunity, and its going to be shattered. Is the Afghanistan war going to prevent such an attack? Probably not directly. Assuming the mission succeeds, though, we will have one less terrorist base of operations to worry about.
    I don't know. I have conflictual feelings about the war. What I am clear on, however, is the view that Layton shouldn't use the war to further his politics.
  • late here also...

    Layton is wrong on this one, Canada shouldn't just pull out, but there will come a time where Canada will have accomplish their duty in Afghanistan, and it's that time that must be settled, then it will be up to another country to step up and take Canada's place, right now it sound like a FIGHT Canada MUST finish, which is insane and unreal.

    What i don't like (as i said before), is the speech that the Conservatives gave to this mission, which (too bad for those who disagree) is clearly making Canada LOOKS like a USA puppets. Also, stop talking about rebuilding, when i hear that it makes me laugh, Canada is clearly fighting out there, at least admit that, don't be a coward doing something and trying to make it sound great to the population eyes, peoples are not stupid.

    I'm sure the population would agree with this mission if it would be a mission to help Afghanistan and would be a temporary mission, not a mission to give Canada a tougher name on the international level.
    "L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
    -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
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