in the tune of emily

Rats of Multa

teachers preach the doctrine of thought,
while listening minds rot,
and so, it seems, i am glad i have not.

FinsburyParkCarrots

Rats of Multa wrote:

teachers preach the doctrine of thought,
while listening minds rot,
and so, it seems, i am glad i have not.

I know what you're trying to say here: Knowledge doesn't need college. But this is just a statement expressed in quasi-poetical speech: Could you think of a way to show the failing of conventional teaching via an example? An image of a lad staring out of a classroom window and seeing wisdom blowing as wind across an empty football pitch, while a boring teacher in tweed drones on in front of him, helps the reader visualise your point. And images well-presented are exciting to read and see in the mind's eye.

velvet I site

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

I know what you're trying to say here: Knowledge doesn't need college. But this is just a statement expressed in quasi-poetical speech: Could you think of a way to show the failing of conventional teaching via an example? An image of a lad staring out of a classroom window and seeing wisdom blowing as wind across an empty football pitch, while a boring teacher in tweed drones on in front of him, helps the reader visualise your point. And images well-presented are exciting to read and see in the mind's eye.

i kind of like it as it is... it's a reference to e.dickinson right?...she always had this sort of ability to lock time rather than open a reader into "seeing" or imaginingall of it...or rather, as you're saying Fins, to enter a reader into the metaphor of time, or infinity, or Nature, or whatever in the hell one 'prefers' to deem Her Majesty. this of course doesn't even touch the fact that it is a self-expressive piece and therefore inherently Beautiful.

velvet I site

U got any more Rats?

FinsburyParkCarrots

velvet I site wrote:

i kind of like it as it is... it's a reference to e.dickinson right?...she always had this sort of ability to lock time rather than open a reader into "seeing" or imaginingall of it...or rather, as you're saying Fins, to enter a reader into the metaphor of time, or infinity, or Nature, or whatever in the hell one 'prefers' to deem Her Majesty. this of course doesn't even touch the fact that it is a self-expressive piece and therefore inherently Beautiful.

I disagree. The piece is not beautiful. It states a proposition by telling rather than showing: And that is all. The third line of the piece is grammatically and semantically defective. There is no use of metaphor in the poem bar the cliched description of rotting minds. Regardless of what you state to be an apparent allusion in the poem's title to Emily Dickinson, the piece states nothing particularly all encompassing or universal bar the platitude to be paraphrased, "I'm glad my mind is still active and not rotten like those of people who listened to conventional teachings and doctrines."

However, one could make a poem from an idea.

velvet I site

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

I disagree. The piece is not beautiful. It states a proposition by telling rather than showing: And that is all. The third line of the piece is grammatically and semantically defective. There is no use of metaphor in the poem bar the cliched description of rotting minds. Regardless of what you state to be an apparent allusion in the poem's title to Emily Dickinson, the piece states nothing particularly all encompassing or universal bar the platitude to be paraphrased, "I'm glad my mind is still active and not rotten like those of people who listened to conventional teachings and doctrines."

However, one could make a poem from an idea.

yeah, that's a very fair comment all around and an opinion i wasn't trying to slander; i do however feel that a poem isn't necessarily beautiful because it meets a set of criteria you or anyone else has created to so categorize and define.. Beauty by nature is indefinate, which is of course why the facts of Nature are inherently beautiful.. the lack of "metaphor" or raeadily generalize terms of environment or description can often serve as mere decoration for a poem, a matter strickly of appearance that bares nothing on any "Ideas" a piece might touch-upon.. by i do agree with you i like to see poems built around ideas, and i think this one may have been.. and of course i'll reiterate the piece was self-expressive so there may have been personalized metaphors laced within it, who know?

the thing i kind of appreciate as a man who tries his best to know words and their relation to Life is that the piece is not necessarily about emily dickinson at all, but yet is presented kind of as a homeage to her, and that is certainly no small task to imbue... plus it does after all reach into the realm of unconventional psychology and social relations that has come to shape her life's work... so that appeals to me.

velvet I site

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

I know what you're trying to say here: Knowledge doesn't need college. But this is just a statement expressed in quasi-poetical speech: Could you think of a way to show the failing of conventional teaching via an example? An image of a lad staring out of a classroom window and seeing wisdom blowing as wind across an empty football pitch, while a boring teacher in tweed drones on in front of him, helps the reader visualise your point. And images well-presented are exciting to read and see in the mind's eye.

i think if i could clarify my response to your initial one i would say that i think there can be problems in the effectiveness of art within the mass-scale of societies when an artist works primarily, and often times the case is 'only', in terms of metaphor and created imagery. sometimes individuals can't draw the intended ideas from a metaphor that could or could not mean a certain thing, so for me a poem like this one is an important element for an artist to have within one's catalogue, or repertoire--"intention" seems to be the most important aspect to assessing an artwork.

FinsburyParkCarrots

I'm intrigued by the idea of a self-expressive poem, sincerely. You mean a poem-as-universe? For me that could best be managed via a short, pithy poem radiating from a diaphanous image which emits seemingly limitless light, colour, sound, time and space.

FinsburyParkCarrots

velvet I site wrote:

i think if i could clarify my response to your initial one i would say that i think there can be problems in the effectiveness of art within the mass-scale of societies when an artist works primarily, and often times the case is 'only', in terms of metaphor and created imagery. sometimes individuals can't draw the intended ideas from a metaphor that could or could not mean a certain thing, so for me a poem like this one is an important element for an artist to have within one's catalogue, or repertoire--"intention" seems to be the most important aspect to assessing an artwork.

I think one can never know authorial intention. I don't think the author can ever control the meaning of their work; this is why Shakespeare's work still provokes contemporary readings.


http://faculty.smu.edu/nschwart/seminar/Fallacy.htm


Check out Macherey:
http://www.litencyc.com/php/speople.php?rec=true&UID=2851

velvet I site

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

I'm intrigued by the idea of a self-expressive poem, sincerely. You mean a poem-as-universe? For me that could best be managed via a short, pithy poem radiating from a diaphanous image which emits seemingly limitless light, colour, sound, time and space.

yes the conversation does seem to be very interesting.

i think a poem can be self-expressive to several different degrees... one could be inteding to express one's self as representative of the expansive, infinite Universe or one could be expressing an emotion or an idea, or both, in/at a certain--particular--place within Nature's aforementioned infinitude.

also i am not so strict as to refute this message :rolleyes: you have made here as poetic, as as a collection of words you have seemingly expressed yourself, and that is truly fantastic! but okay, great, you've expressed yourself... but the question remains as to whether or not i, the given viewer, side with belief in matters of evaluating your sincerity/honesty,... aka the intention of the again mentioned :rolleyes: statement... and in this case the judge yes, i do believe you true intention was to express the fact that you understand yourself to be infinite in nature,... and that is truly great!

i so love the wizardry you tend to create Fins, we should definately make it a point to have a beer sometime, maybe catch Shay on the tellee~ or something... i think i could be on your side of the island in a matter of nano-seconds if i needed!:D:rolleyes:;)

velvet I site

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

I think one can never know authorial intention. I don't think the author can ever control the meaning of their work; this is why Shakespeare's work still provokes contemporary readings.


http://faculty.smu.edu/nschwart/seminar/Fallacy.htm


Check out Macherey:
http://www.litencyc.com/php/speople.php?rec=true&UID=2851

ahhh yes, i do agree, unless an artist expresses it.....?

the chance is out there, true, but of course history chomps away at the context day-in and day-out.... unless one creates a trapdoor.....?

how does the song go again?..........
The mind is grey like the city.
Packing in and overgrown.
Love is deep. Dig it out.
Standing in a hole alone.
Working for something that one can never hold.
A place in the clouds.
Good place to hide oh my oh.

So I'm flying away, away.
Driving away, away.
Finding. Hoping. Ways I missed before. Missed before.


thanks for the links though, i shall check them out on sunday when i meditate upon my week's work.

EvilToasterElf

velvet I site wrote:

i think if i could clarify my response to your initial one i would say that i think there can be problems in the effectiveness of art within the mass-scale of societies when an artist works primarily, and often times the case is 'only', in terms of metaphor and created imagery. sometimes individuals can't draw the intended ideas from a metaphor that could or could not mean a certain thing, so for me a poem like this one is an important element for an artist to have within one's catalogue, or repertoire--"intention" seems to be the most important aspect to assessing an artwork.

It's much easier for intention to slide into political venting, and thus already distance itself from half of it's readers. Go to any poetry slam for examples. Although this piece is clearly crafted to have a rythm it only carries a message with that rythm. I think it's important for any poet to excercise various styles, those styles should all be effective poetry, not effective at turning a blank page into a soap box.

Dreams of Red

EvilToasterElf wrote:

It's much easier for intention to slide into political venting, and thus already distance itself from half of it's readers. Go to any poetry slam for examples. Although this piece is clearly crafted to have a rythm it only carries a message with that rythm. I think it's important for any poet to excercise various styles, those styles should all be effective poetry, not effective at turning a blank page into a soap box.

yeah i think that is a very true statement. if one wishes to be claimed a poet, one must be thorough in creatively bending pre-existing styles of 'writing' as well as actively searching to create unique stylistic aceivements, thereby expanding the historical canon while also contributing to history as an expressive, individual psychology.

interesting is your point too because politics are very meddlesome in poetry, being that poetry has little influence on politics in most societies today it seems almost out-of-place there no matter how an artist approaches the issue... personally i think art should be the wheel of political discourse so i try to keep that door open while not actually writing poems specifically about political situations. politics fade, so fuck em.

velvet I site

Dreams of Red wrote:

yeah i think that is a very true statement. if one wishes to be claimed a poet, one must be thorough in creatively bending pre-existing styles of 'writing' as well as actively searching to create unique stylistic aceivements, thereby expanding the historical canon while also contributing to history as an expressive, individual psychology.

interesting is your point too because politics are very meddlesome in poetry, being that poetry has little influence on politics in most societies today it seems almost out-of-place there no matter how an artist approaches the issue... personally i think art should be the wheel of political discourse so i try to keep that door open while not actually writing poems specifically about political situations. politics fade, so fuck em.

indeed bro, one of the best things about pearl jam, beyond the highly intelligent use of allegory and metaphor, is their diversity and consistency in exploration of stylistic formality within song-writing as an artform... 'tis an aesthetics for anyone to ascribe to!--and dare i say, everyone?!!!

art as politics?--ahhh, that'll never work.