battlefield life

FinsburyParkCarrots

velvet I site wrote:

the question also arises: what is a postmodern poem? i mean, what is its structure?

the very notion of something being 'postmodern', say as pulp fiction with its progressive mode or presentation, is very difficult to conceptualize in poetry, because unless we're writing sonnets and stuff there is already a sort of freeness to poetic expression.. or maybe you see the history differently?

Well, let's take a modernist poem such as The Waste Land. We note the following characteristics: allusion, intertextuality, multiperspectivalism, occlusion of narratorial agency, alienation. Yet the poem uses mythical and religious allusions (such as the religion of the Upanishads) to make a rather anti-modern call for a return to socially cohesive spiritual Truth in the midst of uncertainty and upheaval.

Postmodernism uses many effects of modernism, without the same search for Truth in chaos. Postmodernist literature in theory celebrates its randomness. Mass communications, the growth of the media and education, the catalysmic effect of two world wars, the collapse of the British Empire and the rise of US power had a big impact on philosophical thinking, in a world of conflicting belief-structures and constructions in language of reality. Structuralists had seen language as an interoperating network of sign-systems which in unity signified an extra-linguistic reality or 'signified'. But in what we now call the post-structuralist period (the late sixties and early seventies primarily), the philosopher Jacques Derrida and literary critic Roland Barthes started to look closely at the ways in which the meanings of phonemes, words, phrases or larger texts shift according to the innumerable contexts of utterance and reception, and began to advocate that Truth was something outside of the confines of language and thus unknowable in language. (This doesn't mean, as some critics mistakenly think, that Derrida is saying that there's no Truth. He just means that language is too imperfect and volatile to reflect absolute, objective Truth.) Because we use words in many different contexts, their meanings can never be fixed by their immediate contexts or by negotiation with our ever changing understanding of what words mean in theory and practice. "Meaning" through language is thus a relative concept: an effect of language, moving about and depending (in a very unstable way) on the neverending, other contexts in which language is used.

So, a postmodern poem will interrogate its own claim to meaning. In theory, it will defer indefintely its own textuality but in practice it still adheres to conventional aesthetics to a degree. I don't think a truly postmodern poem has been written yet. A postmodern poem might have to be so avant garde that each character in the text must be written on a small piece of paper and scattered across the far reaches of time and space to prevent the constrictions of form and emphasise linguistic play, but even then there would be some spacial arrangement in effect if not in intention, and thus there would be inevitable closure!

For me, most postmodernism is pretentious. My area of interest is in post-colonial poetry from India, the Caribbean, Ireland and Africa (particularly South Africa). Like postmodernist poetry it will often be self referential and enjoy playing with signification, but it does it with a belief in its own power to represent reality and effect a posssiblity of continuing a decolonizing, heterogenising influence on what was once the canon of "English Literature", turning it into literatures in English (or englishes).

velvet I site

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

Well, let's take a modernist poem such as The Waste Land. We note the following characteristics: allusion, intertextuality, multiperspectivalism, occlusion of narratorial agency, alienation. Yet the poem uses mythical and religious allusions (such as the religion of the Upanishads) to make a rather anti-modern call for a return to socially cohesive spiritual Truth in the midst of uncertainty and upheaval.

Postmodernism uses many effects of modernism, without the same search for Truth in chaos. Postmodernist literature in theory celebrates its randomness. Mass communications, the growth of the media and education, the catalysmic effect of two world wars, the collapse of the British Empire and the rise of US power had a big impact on philosophical thinking, in a world of conflicting belief-structures and constructions in language of reality. Structuralists had seen language as an interoperating network of sign-systems which in unity signified an extra-linguistic reality or 'signified'. The philosopher Jacques Derrida and literary critic Roland Barthes started to look closely at the ways in which the meanings of phonemes, words, phrases or larger texts shift according to the innumerable contexts of utterance and reception, and began to advocate that Truth was something outside of the confines of language and thus unknowable in language. (This doesn't mean, as some critics mistakenly think, that Derrida is saying that there's no Truth. He just means that language is too imperfect and volatile to reflect absolute, objective Truth.) Because we use words in many different contexts, their meanings can never be fixed by their immediate contexts or by negotiation with our ever changing understanding of what words mean in theory and practice. "Meaning" is thus a relative concept, an effect of language, moving about and depending on the neverending, other contexts in which language is used.

So, a postmodern poem will interrogate its own claim to meaning. In theory, it will defer indefintely its own textuality but in practice it still adheres to conventional aesthetics to a degree. I don't think a truly postmodern poem has been written yet. A postmodern poem might have to be so avant garde that each character in the text must be written on a small piece of paper and scattered across the far reaches of time and space to prevent the constrictions of form and emphasise linguistic play, but even then there would be some spacial arrangement in effect if not in intention, and thus there would be inevitable closure!

For me, most postmodernism is pretentious. My area of interest is in post-colonial poetry from India, the Caribbean, Ireland and Africa (particularly South Africa). Like postmodernist poetry it will often be self referential and enjoy playing with signification, but it does it with a belief in its own power to represent reality and effect a posssiblity of continuing a decolonizing, heterogenising influence on what was once the canon of "English Literature", turning it into literatures in English (or englishes).

Abolsutely Fascinating! [to begin with a little postmodernist pun;)]

seriously finsbury, a spectacular display! my interpretation has been much like your description here: modernism was an attempt to form some definition into the chaotic, subjective realm of the physical world, or Nature. post-modernism was/is the artistic embrace of that subjectivity, often taken to the radical extreme of total 'insanity', or complete lack of knowledge in any form about the world where one exists.

my sentiment is the same about post-modernism: in art terms it is very pretentious in that it is a presentation of one's ideas, self, experiences.. for others to view, and thus interpret, but realistically there is NO MEANING for one to obtain from such an experience.. post-modern art is essentially nihilism in that it attempts to 'be' the experience of meaninglessness.. but somehow through that process is supposed to be revealed 'total meaning'.. it is a process of provocation that is supposed to reflect one's subjective place in the universe and within human culture. the problem, though, is that every post-modern piece of art is therefore equivalent.. if all such works seek total meaning through an interpretation of total meaningless, then we only need one of them!

thus your flavor for the rich foreign poetries you've mentioned is extremely admirable in my book [which i'm still working on;)].

basically to me art hinges on the fact that no human can know the mind of another in totality, there is just no objective interpretation of anything in Nature outside of one's body. there is knowledge, or truths, but no Truth. my thinking has been very political lately. i think social renaissance will come not from art becoming political, but from politics becoming rooted in art..

of course that may take millenia to manifest, but it also may not.

i'm not a very good writer.. i dont read too much, i dont study recent fundamental advices, and i rarely take criticisms to heart [they have to really burn to get through my thick skin:)].. but i think i may have a "post-modern" poem for you finsbury, and maybe i'll even write you in somewhere [i'd say most likely if i keep drinking wine at this rate today!]..

so wait did i just call myself pretentious and ally with the very camp i just denounced? ah art, it's so infinitely funny!


more, let's hear more!!...

FinsburyParkCarrots

Identity might be a relative concept, but is that you, Seta?

Nothingbetter

eden wrote:

I like the story your sig paints
where is it from....

"Born of a Broken Man" - Rage Against the Machine

eden

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

Well, let's take a modernist poem such as The Waste Land. We note the following characteristics: allusion, intertextuality, multiperspectivalism, occlusion of narratorial agency, alienation. Yet the poem uses mythical and religious allusions (such as the religion of the Upanishads) to make a rather anti-modern call for a return to socially cohesive spiritual Truth in the midst of uncertainty and upheaval.

Postmodernism uses many effects of modernism, without the same search for Truth in chaos. Postmodernist literature in theory celebrates its randomness. Mass communications, the growth of the media and education, the catalysmic effect of two world wars, the collapse of the British Empire and the rise of US power had a big impact on philosophical thinking, in a world of conflicting belief-structures and constructions in language of reality. Structuralists had seen language as an interoperating network of sign-systems which in unity signified an extra-linguistic reality or 'signified'. But in what we now call the post-structuralist period (the late sixties and early seventies primarily), the philosopher Jacques Derrida and literary critic Roland Barthes started to look closely at the ways in which the meanings of phonemes, words, phrases or larger texts shift according to the innumerable contexts of utterance and reception, and began to advocate that Truth was something outside of the confines of language and thus unknowable in language. (This doesn't mean, as some critics mistakenly think, that Derrida is saying that there's no Truth. He just means that language is too imperfect and volatile to reflect absolute, objective Truth.) Because we use words in many different contexts, their meanings can never be fixed by their immediate contexts or by negotiation with our ever changing understanding of what words mean in theory and practice. "Meaning" through language is thus a relative concept: an effect of language, moving about and depending (in a very unstable way) on the neverending, other contexts in which language is used.

So, a postmodern poem will interrogate its own claim to meaning. In theory, it will defer indefintely its own textuality but in practice it still adheres to conventional aesthetics to a degree. I don't think a truly postmodern poem has been written yet. A postmodern poem might have to be so avant garde that each character in the text must be written on a small piece of paper and scattered across the far reaches of time and space to prevent the constrictions of form and emphasise linguistic play, but even then there would be some spacial arrangement in effect if not in intention, and thus there would be inevitable closure!

For me, most postmodernism is pretentious. My area of interest is in post-colonial poetry from India, the Caribbean, Ireland and Africa (particularly South Africa). Like postmodernist poetry it will often be self referential and enjoy playing with signification, but it does it with a belief in its own power to represent reality and effect a posssiblity of continuing a decolonizing, heterogenising influence on what was once the canon of "English Literature", turning it into literatures in English (or englishes).

I will never again question Fin on ANYTHING regarding the laws of poetry!^^^^
*Bows before him on hands and knees*

velvet I site

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

Identity might be a relative concept, but is that you, Seta?

was this is response to me? sorry i can't follow you..?

also sorry for the delay, had to run to ups and the grocery.. having a bbq tonight since i got the grandparents' house for my taking!

oh, one more thing.. poetry has laws?

FinsburyParkCarrots

velvet I site wrote:

was this is response to me? sorry i can't follow you..?

No biggee. You just write very similarly to someone else on here.

velvet I site wrote:

also sorry for the delay, had to run to ups and the grocery.. having a bbq tonight since i got the grandparents' house for my taking!

oh, one more thing.. poetry has laws?

As for laws in poetry, I don't think there are any.

velvet I site

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

No biggee. You just write very similarly to someone else on here.

is that a good thing?

FinsburyParkCarrots

I'd say yes, because Seta's good.

velvet I site

well then thank you, i think..

i would love to discuss this line further, but right now i have to start the chili!

and thanks again for the discussion.. ooh also, on your interest in the more exotic cultures and their poetry, the more i thought about that, it began to remind me of music and the manner in which other cultures experience time. it's interesting to me because every 'music' is its own rhythm of living, and i think that is why i've always been drawn to pearl jam as much as any of other musicians playing today.. they're still no tchaikovsky, but nobody is perfect!

FinsburyParkCarrots

Okay, take care. I'll be busy for a few days so I'll not be about. Have fun and keep posting the poems!