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Older than music?

Ms. HaikuMs. Haiku Washington DC Posts: 7,265
edited August 2005 in Poetry, Prose, Music & Art
I'm rereading a book, "Anil's Ghost." In it I just hit upon a reference to 5th centure bc when a Chinese man was buried with musicians to be delivered to his ancestors. As the character, Sarath, says, "Nothing was as important. Music was not entertainment, it was a link with ancestors who had led us here, it was a moral and spiritual force." Michael Ondaatje wrote this book. This could start many discussions, but one being, which is older . . . music or writing?
There is no such thing as leftover pizza. There is now pizza and later pizza. - anonymous
The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math - The Mincing Mockingbird
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  • Ms. HaikuMs. Haiku Washington DC Posts: 7,265
    Or how about - which is older the desire to communicate outside of music or the desire to communicate with music?
    There is no such thing as leftover pizza. There is now pizza and later pizza. - anonymous
    The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math - The Mincing Mockingbird
  • FinsburyParkCarrotsFinsburyParkCarrots Seattle, WA Posts: 12,223
    Music came first. Social being determines consciousness, and in between is song.

    We might say that Sumerian Cunieform records pictographically a pre-existing culture, but the real evidence for an oral tradition of literature performed in music and prior to the introduction of writing comes with archaeological evidence surrounding the Homeric tradition of poetry as song. In Mycenaean Greece (1600-1250 BC), remnants of a wall mural found at the site of the so-called Nestor's Palace in Pylos depict a bard singing with a lyre, whereas Linear B tablets found at the site merely constitute account books carved in stone. Written (and alphabetic) literature, it seems by what evidence we have, came to Greece much later (around the eighth century BC).
  • EvilToasterElfEvilToasterElf Posts: 1,119
    FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:
    Music came first. Social being determines consciousness, and in between is song.

    We might say that Sumerian Cunieform records pictographically a pre-existing culture, but the real evidence for an oral tradition of literature performed in music and prior to the introduction of writing comes with archaeological evidence surrounding the Homeric tradition of poetry as song. In Mycenaean Greece (1600-1250 BC), remnants of a wall mural found at the site of the so-called Nestor's Palace in Pylos depict a bard singing with a lyre, whereas Linear B tablets found at the site merely constitute account books carved in stone. Written (and alphabetic) literature, it seems by what evidence we have, came to Greece much later (around the eighth century BC).

    Everyone's born with a voice, not everyone's born with a pen
  • FinsburyParkCarrotsFinsburyParkCarrots Seattle, WA Posts: 12,223
    EvilToasterElf wrote:
    Everyone's born with a voice, not everyone's born with a pen


    What is the pen but one person's collection of many voices?
  • EvilToasterElfEvilToasterElf Posts: 1,119
    FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:
    What is the pen but one person's collection of many voices?

    To bring voices from those quiet blind spots in the mind...

    But the burning question is, do we communicate more through the sounds and words from our mouth or the unspoken language of the eyes
  • ISNISN Posts: 1,700
    we communicate more with words, obviously, but the mutterings of our hearts transveyed through are eyes are more expressive.....the quality of communication in glances and looks is higher and more expressive sometimes than our spoken/written words....there must be thoughts and feelings which are inexpressible.....with language......and which are better conveyed through music etc.......
    ....they're asking me to prove why I should be allowed to stay with my baby in Australia, because I'm mentally ill......and they think I should leave......
  • DopeBeastieDopeBeastie Posts: 2,513
    i was talking to some cats the other night who said that God is something into which all religions fit like the keys on a key ring... each religion shares only one small portion of the circle...

    i think music is the "keyring"
    and god is the space in the middle


    "hey who sings, prays twice"


    :)
  • ISNISN Posts: 1,700
    I like that Pasta.....
    ....they're asking me to prove why I should be allowed to stay with my baby in Australia, because I'm mentally ill......and they think I should leave......
  • FinsburyParkCarrotsFinsburyParkCarrots Seattle, WA Posts: 12,223
    EvilToasterElf wrote:
    To bring voices from those quiet blind spots in the mind...

    But the burning question is, do we communicate more through the sounds and words from our mouth or the unspoken language of the eyes

    Through the sounds and words from our mouth. I'm a BBC Radio 4 fan.
  • burtschipsburtschips Posts: 734
    it's gotta be music, like the dolphins and the clickin' african tribes.
    Salut baloo
  • ISNISN Posts: 1,700
    but what about telepathy? with telepathy you wouldn't need words, and I think there's a definite Jungian kind of telepathy going on.......kind of like the Celestine Prophecy which was a load of junk etc.....
    ....they're asking me to prove why I should be allowed to stay with my baby in Australia, because I'm mentally ill......and they think I should leave......
  • FinsburyParkCarrotsFinsburyParkCarrots Seattle, WA Posts: 12,223
    Okey dokey, this is venturing into Kristevan territory. :)

    Have a read of this:

    http://www.eng.fju.edu.tw/Literary_Criticism/feminism/kristeva.htm
  • ISNISN Posts: 1,700
    I can't wait to get my teeth into this one.....heheheehehe.....

    I don't know much about linguistics especially feminist linguistics, I've read Barthes, but I don't remember it......

    but I liked this bit.....
    The semiotic is anarchic, pre-Oedipal, and polymorphous erotgenically, maternally oreinted, and involves primary processes. The symbolic is Oedipalized, paternally oreinted [sic], and involves secondary processes. It is "order superimposed on the semiotic. The semiotic overflows its boundaries . . . in madness, holiness and poetry.", and avant-guarde art and texts.
    ....they're asking me to prove why I should be allowed to stay with my baby in Australia, because I'm mentally ill......and they think I should leave......
  • ISNISN Posts: 1,700
    thanks, Fins, I liked reading that, and may yet study a bit of linguistics if I'm up to it......I especially liked the emphasis on the maternal.....
    ....they're asking me to prove why I should be allowed to stay with my baby in Australia, because I'm mentally ill......and they think I should leave......
  • Ms. HaikuMs. Haiku Washington DC Posts: 7,265
    Which is more powerful to convey a message a touch to a tree branch or a word?
    There is no such thing as leftover pizza. There is now pizza and later pizza. - anonymous
    The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math - The Mincing Mockingbird
  • FinsburyParkCarrotsFinsburyParkCarrots Seattle, WA Posts: 12,223
    Bibliobella wrote:
    Which is more powerful to convey a message a touch to a tree branch or a word?


    I'll ask Oaky. (Rubs Oaky; she blushes green.) She said she liked that. Now I'll recite some poetry to her. (Oaky stands stock still. Is nonplussed.) Well, I guess that's settled, then. :D
  • DopeBeastieDopeBeastie Posts: 2,513
    that's so sycamore


    ;)
  • Being EnlightenedBeing Enlightened Posts: 5,746
    tchaliz wrote:
    Words and sounds may seem clear, precise, and that's why they prevail in written comunication
    But we all know, that in oral comunication, my eyes and my face, and the melody of my voice can say the exact opposite of my words, or say something totally different...and in such cases any of us will react strongly to the non verbal comunication and ignore the verb: seduction, admiration, love, and also sarcasm, and so many agressive feelings are basically transmited this way
    T
    So true, T. So much can get lost in the transmission when it's not a face to face conversation! Just like on the net here, sometimes you say something as a joke and someone may take offence or they just don't get it. Body language plays a big part in conveying the true message. :)

    And on a side note, looks like FPC's gettin' wood! :p;)
    Forget your perfect offering, there is a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in. - Leonard Cohen
  • Big GunBig Gun Posts: 14
    Sure it's music.If you don't hear or don't understand the words,you take music with heart, not with mind.Noone speak italian,but most of people cry at the opera.
    "...let.s buy the Museum and write our names on the Wall...''
  • JobbeJobbe Posts: 20
    Some people speak Italian... Italians, for example...
    (Who saw the sarcastic, but indulgent look in my eyes there? No one, I guess, but it was there, I promise)
  • Big GunBig Gun Posts: 14
    Sorry,Jobbe -nothing personal. PEACE. It was another story.
    "...let.s buy the Museum and write our names on the Wall...''
  • Ms. HaikuMs. Haiku Washington DC Posts: 7,265
    FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:
    I'll ask Oaky. (Rubs Oaky; she blushes green.) She said she liked that. Now I'll recite some poetry to her. (Oaky stands stock still. Is nonplussed.) Well, I guess that's settled, then. :D
    You funny man, Mr. Carrots! Ok, so touch is more powerful than spoken word... is touch more powerful than song? What does Oaky do when you sing to her?
    There is no such thing as leftover pizza. There is now pizza and later pizza. - anonymous
    The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math - The Mincing Mockingbird
  • FinsburyParkCarrotsFinsburyParkCarrots Seattle, WA Posts: 12,223
    Bibliobella wrote:
    You funny man, Mr. Carrots! Ok, so touch is more powerful than spoken word... is touch more powerful than song? What does Oaky do when you sing to her?

    Her bloom shimmers. :)
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