Wu-Tang: better together or on their own?
catch22
Posts: 1,081
sure, 36 chambers is a classic. but the rest of the wu-tang releases are so loaded with filler and uneven. i said elsewhere that pearl jam is greater than the sum of its parts, i feel wu-tang is the opposite, far less than the sum of its parts. in fact, my second favorite wu-tang album is 8 diagrams, if only because it is so clearly rza's project which gives it a cohesion none of their other releases has.
compare that to solo releases by the various mc's. wu tang itself has one classic album (36 chambers) and a bunch of good to marginal albums. on the flipside, individual members are responsible for:
only built 4 cuban linx
liquid swords
ironman
supreme clientele
fishscale
ghostface himself has put out more brilliant albums than wu-tang.
compare that to solo releases by the various mc's. wu tang itself has one classic album (36 chambers) and a bunch of good to marginal albums. on the flipside, individual members are responsible for:
only built 4 cuban linx
liquid swords
ironman
supreme clientele
fishscale
ghostface himself has put out more brilliant albums than wu-tang.
and like that... he's gone.
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Ghost and, to some extent, GZA, are exceptions to the rule, but virtually none of the 2nd wave (and beyond) of solo albums can touch the material released prior to 1998 and it's because those original solo albums were very much "Wu-Tang" albums. They all shared a very cohesive vision and were all helmed by RZA, with a little help from the Wu-Tang Elements. Wu-Tang Clan members were featured throughout. You can create a compilation of tracks from all those records and they'd all fit together very nicely.
They were created as true ALBUMS - as opposed to compilation-style records that followed as individual Wu emcees started to use outside producers and fell into the trap of creating "a little something for everyone," as Raekwon used to say.
Wu-Tang Forever had some filler; a fault of it being a double album...but if you take away the small handful of filler, it's an amazing album. The W was also slightly uneven, but RZA did a nice job of refocusing the group vision after years of turmoil. Iron Flag, on the other hand, was a travesty. And 8D like you said is bery good, largely bc it's overwhelmed by RZA...but again, due to turmoil in the group, none of the others wanted any part of the record and set it up for failure by being uninspired and so dismissive of the project that they refused to perform the new songs on the promotion tour! And Ghost was MIA due to his own conflicts with RZA and Wu-Tang as a business.
I'll agree with you that there are a greater quantity of quality solo album than group albums, but that's just a product of the problems a large group like this faced. However, if you take those first few years of solo albums and recognize the group dynamic in them, it's Wu-Tang as a group, hands down. Hell, just compare THOSE solos to what followed and you'll see that the emcees come off like completely different artists.
also throw in Masta Killa's No Said Date since it went back to those same roots as the original solos
(Shawn Smith's official website, but not Thee Shawn Smith)
wu-tang forever did have its moments, but i generally feel like each of those next 3 albums could have been on par with 36 chambers if they had had the discipline to pare it down to the 11-12 song 50 minute knockout that album was. each of the albums after felt bloated.
that seems to be a problem with hip hop generally though. talib kweli's albums are always 75 minutes... it's not necessary. lupe fiasco does it. nas did it on several albums (and his best albums are his shortest... illmatic, stillmatic, lost tapes). hell, snoop's entire career has been destroyed by releasing inevitably bloated 20-track albums with tons of filler. doggystyle had, what, 13 songs?
oh well, so it goes.
Yep - Wu-Chronicles...it only collected singles from those albums though, and in my opinion, some of those were the weakest tracks from those albums. BUT it does all come together very well!
Agreed. Generally speaking, look at the greatest rap albums of all time and you'll find that they're motly handled by one producer (maybe two) and are built as true albums.
Rakim had Eric B
Kool G Rap had DJ Polo
A Tribe Called Quest had Ali Shaheed Muhammad
Naughty by Nature had Kay Gee
The entire Juice Crew had Marley Marl
CL Smooth had Pete Rock
Guru and the entire Gangstarr Foundation had Premier
Snoop's first album had Dr. Dre
Public Enemy and Ice Cube's first few records had the Bomb Squad
LL Cool J had Rick Rubin
Jurassic 5 had Nu-Mark and Cut Chemist
Ugly Duckling had Einstein
De La Soul and Jungle Brothers had Prince Paul
Wu-Tang had RZA and the Wu-Elements
this list can go on for some time...but the point is, look at most of the albums these artists cut together and you'll find that they're incredibly strong and timeless, unlike many albums that followed when these and other rappers (often forced by labels) got into the idea of assembling a stable of beatmakers. And when I say BEATMAKERS, I differentiate between them and PRODUCERS. A producer does much, much more than simply hand in a beat for some rapper to spit over. There are, of course, exceptions to every rule and there's still great hip-hop being made if you know where to look; there are still guys creating true ALBUMS...but you're totally right for the most part...we're getting so many bloated, unfocused compilations disguised as albums, it's pathetic.
With that said, it should be noted that many rappers have acknowledged this and started releasing official mixtape cd's that collect these standalone type songs so they can get them out there while still trying to create a cohesive album. Many of the artists doing this regularly and well are Wu-Tang affiliates and Boot Camp emcees.
(Shawn Smith's official website, but not Thee Shawn Smith)
doggystyle had at least 18 tracks i think
http://allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:hnftxqrgldse
13. one of which is just a skit/intro. 12 songs.
Ok i have the original tracklist on my version.....19 tracks
http://www.mp3.com/albums/20056057/summary.html
i think all the interludes are just rolled into the individual tracks on the cd i have. so they're not counted separate. regardless, the point is there's only 12-13 songs. now snoop releases albums with 20 SONGS, half of which are shit. it's seems like an epidemic in hip hop.
I can drink to that!
I slayed MC's back in the rec room era
My style broke motherfuckin backs like Ken Patera
Katowice 2007
London 2007
Summerfest 2006
"Why would they come to our concert just to boo us?" -Lisa Simpson
4th Chamber is one of my favorites
Verse One: Ghostface Killah
The only man I hold wake for
Is the sky-blue Bally kid, in eighty-three, rocked Taylor's
My Memorex performed tape decks, my own phone sex
Watch out for Haiti bitches, I heard they throw hex
Yo, Wu whole platoon is filled with rac-coons
Corner sittin wine niggaz sippin Apple Boone, this ain't no white cartoon
Cuz I be duckin crazy spades
The kid hold white shit, like blacks rock ashy legs
Why is the sky blue? Why is water wet?
Why did Judas rat to Romans while Jesus slept? Stand up
You're out of luck like two dogs stuck
Iron Man be sippin rum, out of Stanley Cups, unflammable
Noriega, aimin knives which stay windy in Chicago
spine-tingle, mind boggles
Kangols in rainbow colors, promoters try to hold dough
Give me mine before Po, wrap you up in so-and-so
I ran the Dark Ages, Constantine and great Henry the Eighth
Built with Ghengis Khan, the wreck suede wiley Don
Verse Two: Killah Priest
I judge wisely, as if nothin ever surprise me
Loungin, between two pillars of ivory
I'm lively, my dome piece, is like buildin stones in Greece
my poems are deep from ancient thrones I speak
I'm overwhelmed, as my mind, roams the realm
My eye's the vision, memory is the film
Others act sub-tile, but they fragile above clouds
They act wild and couldn't budge a crowd
No matter how loud they get, though they growl and spit
Clutch they fists, and throw up signs like a Crip
And throw all types of fits
I leave em split, like ass cheeks and ragged pussy lips
Verse Three: The RZA
Aiyyo, camoflouge chameleon, ninjas scalin your buildin
No time to grab the gun they already got your wife and children
A hit was sent, from the President, to rage your residence
Because you had secret evidence, and documents
On how they raped the continents, and it's the prominent
dominant Islamic, Asiatic black hebrew
The year two thousand and two, the battle's filled with the Wu
Six million devils just died from the Bubonic Flu
Or the Ebola Virus, under the reign of King Cyrus
You can see the weakness of a man right through his iris
Un-loyal snakes get thrown in boilin lakes
of hot oil, it boils your skin, chickenheads gettin slim
like Olive Oyl, only plant the seed deep inside fertile soil
Fortified with essential, vitamin and mineral
use the sky for a blanket, stuffin clouds inside my pillow
Rollin with the Lands, the tribe's a hundred and forty four thousand chosen
Protons Electrons Always Cause Explosions
Verse Four: The Genius/GZA (Maximillion)
The banks of G, all CREAM downs a vet
Money feed good, opposites off the set
It ain't hard to see, my seeds need God-degree
I got mouths to feed, unnecessary beef is more cows to breed
I'm on some tax free shit by any means
Whether bound to hit scheme or some counterfeit CREAM
I learned much from such with cons who run scams
Veterans got the game spiced like hams
And from that, sons are born and guns are drawn
Clips are fully loaded, and then blood floods the lawn
Disciplinary action was a fraction of strength
that made me truncate the length one tenth
with the stump, treat his hips like air pumps
RZA shaved the track, niggaz caught razor bumps
Scarred tryin to figure who invented
this unprecented, opium-scented, dark-tinted
Now watch me blow him out his shoes without clues
Cuz I won't hesitate to detonate my short fuse
From 36 Chambers through to parts of Forever, they were amazing. Since then, Ghost is really the only member to keep bringing it.
36 Chambers, Liquid Swords, Cuban Linx, Ironman, these all came pretty early in the Wu's career.
PJ albums, at the moment!! -
1,Vs 2,Vitalogy 3,No Code 4,Yield 5,Ten 6,Backspacer, 7Pearl Jam 8,Binaural 9,Riot Act.
It's killing Kweli right now. He's put out too much readily available music. I agree with the Snoop Comment as well.
Well said.
The mix-tape thing is really the best way to find quality hip-hop. http://www.hiphopsite.com is a good place to pick them up.
Look what mixtapes did for "The Carter 3" this year alone.