clueless, but inspired

imnothere

I've decided to pick up the guitar again -- after setting it down in those weird years between Spandex, the Scorpions, Run DMC and, finally, that musical movement that seemed to start up yonder in the Pacific Northwest.
Well, that guitar (Gibson Explorer, good lord) is gone. So I'm starting from nothing, lo these years later, with only a dedicated desire to play acoustic guitar. Strum some. Fingerpick some. Maybe sing a little, with enough drink in me. Bar chords and hyperkenetic metal soloing -- now out of my mind. Instead, I want to learn the open chords, read music, essentially learn to actually play guitar.
Long entry longer, here's my question: I can afford to not start with a starter guitar. And I've always wanted a Martin. I've been OCD-ing over the choices and have them down to an HD-28 or one of the 000 models. As I understand it, the Dreadnaught has the big sound, while the smaller-bodied 000's are perhaps more comfortable to play (I'm an average-sized guy, 5-8 and about 170). Indeed, I like the feel of the 000 maybe a little more, but liked the sound coming from the HD I picked up and put down before the salesperson knew beyond a doubt that I had no idea how to play. So which would you, the seasoned player, choose?

I understand this question asks for answers of almost purely personal opinion, but all suggestions are appreciated, just the same.

Thank you much.

imnothere

By "bar" chord I did not mean "barre" chord. At least I don't think I did. I mean the simple index-ring finger-over-two-strings-with-a-fret-between-them technique my non-musician friends and I used to produce a kind of sound.

Novawind

While some people like Martins (I think Eddie favors them) I happen to like the sound of a Taylor. The best way to find out is to go to a local shop and try out as many as you can (low and high end). If price tag doesn't matter to you, go nuts, try 'em all. I've seen and heard $2000 guitars that sound like crap and $200 Squiers that sound great. The neck shape will vary from guitar to guitar so find one that feels comfortable. Bring one of your musician friends too, if you have one. They'll help you spot flaws in the guitar if there are any.

ianvomsaal

+1 for Taylor.
Taylor kicks Martins ass in: build quality, consistency, and playability (they really play far better than any Martin).
Plus Taylor's aren't as overly boomy and overly bassy as Martin (they make very smooth and even sounding guitar).
Bottom line - forget Martin, get a Taylor (I love my 814CE).

imnothere

I appreciate the responses.

Anyone out there willing to speak up for Martin?

Forgot to mention, too, that I have a toddler that's a light sleeper. So the ability to practice on the guitar somewhat quietly is a necessity.

Thanks again.

Grasshopper

Martins are great sounding guitars.. and so are taylors it really just boils down to your preference. If your wanting to sing and play I would go with a taylor if you dont belt out your vocals. Martins have alot of volume to them and may force you to sing louder than you want. I don't think anything sounds better than a martin by itself. Try singing against each one.

lucylespian

MArtins are fine, an OLD company with a long established rep. Taylors are nice too, no question.
It really comes down to what you like.
I suggest you play a few, just sticking to some really simple chords and fingerpicking pattern, so you can listen and get a feel without worrying about your skills.
I played a really nice 1947 Martin 00-18 recently, and it was perfect.
The 000 bodies are smaller again, and are really designed to be amped.
There are lot of choices in acoustics, but they are visually similar, which makes it hard.
A dreadnought body like the HD-28 haslots of projecton and full bass, great sound no doubt.
They do take up a lot of room on your lap.
A small body has less body to the sound as well, but sits more easily in your lap or on a lounge with you.
Whatever you go with, starting on a high-quality guitar rather than a cheap intro is a really good thing to do. It will sound better and be nicer to play.
Just be sure to put new strings on before you take it home, and go down to 10's. Most acoustics in stores will have 11's or even 12's on, for the stringer sound they give, but when starting up, 10's a re easier and will let you play longer before finger pain kicks in. I only use 10's anyway.
Good luck !!

Pauk

Martins are great. I love my D-15. Unfortunately I don't have any knowledge of the HD or 000, haven't played around since I got the D-15 3 years ago. I'd say go for the guitar that's more comfortable to play, especially if you're starting out all over again. Follow your ear, and ignore the Taylor vs Martin argument. If it sounds good, who cares?

imnothere

Well, I had some time this afternoon and stopped in at the local Guitar Center. Went into the little room with the fancy git-arrs and tried three Martins: The OM (John Mayer model), HD-28 and HD-28V. The OM28V I've been considering was not in stock.

My thoughts/findings: The people who work at Guitar Center are still every bit as strange as they were 20 years ago, in the best way. They were helpful, but, more importantly, the two sales people who came by were kind enough to let me try the guitars on my own, with the sliding door shut, so as not to offend anyone with my horrible playing.

The OM had a nice look to it, with an aged polish. Could do without the Mayer signature on the fingerboard, but so it goes. The rounded neck felt comfortable and, as a couple of you pointed out, the smaller OOO body seemed easy to manage. Enjoyed fingerpicking on the instrument. I strummed one or two chords I still know, and it sounded great. But when I hit the chords hard, the guitar seemed to buzz. Easy chords, too, and I checked that my fingers were down and in place. That written, the guitar did put out impressive volume.

The HD's were larger, of course, but not as large as I'd imagined (feared?). In as much as I know enough to state it, I liked the sound coming from them better than the OM. They were loud, and did seem heavier on the bass, but I could fingerpick down to a low volume, and they still sounded great. Strumming hard, I didn't notice a buzz, though my unaware fingertips were starting to scream some.
What I wasn't able to decide is whether I like the standard rounded neck or the V neck. I put the question to a sales associate, who answered, "Well, you know, they're different." Indeed they are.

Also, I did try singing while playing the chords. And . . . I could barely hear myself. So, as was pointed out, that will be an issue. Until I learn how to sing or buy a mic, or both.

Conclussion: I'm going with what sounded best to me. The HD-28, likely with the rounded neck. Should mention that I picked up both a Taylor and Gibson. I'm sure they're superb instruments, but I've had owning a Martin in my mind and musical heart for years.

I appreciate the thoughtful advice. And I do apologize for the windy posts. Writing it out seemed to help sort it out.

Lessons this time. Starting soon.

Best to all.

ianvomsaal

Once you get over that "I've wanted a Martin for years" you'll eventually go with the best playing guitar (whichever that is for you).
I thought I wanted a Martin until I played a bunch of other guitars, then I realized that most Martins aren't really players guitars.
It seems to be more of a nostalgic thing than a playing thing - most older people tend to go with the name Martin because they
know the name (Martin: est.1833), not because Martin's play the best (which is obvious when so many professional players that
play night after night switch from Martin to another brand (because the playability is better - long hrs of play night after night tend
to do that to musicians). Not that I'm implying you're a professional musician, but pro players want Playability and Consistency.
What happens if their guitar gets broken on tour - they want to be able to go down to the local guitar store, pick up a guitar, and
have it feel relatively the same as what you just had - and that's not really gonna happen with Martin - too many inconsistencies).
Artists that have "signature" Martins get them built to their own specs - and what's in the store isn't the same as what they have.
Personally my Taylor 814CE is the best playing acoustic guitar I've ever played - and it only took me 4 chords to decide that.

- Ian

Pauk

ianvomsaal wrote:

Once you get over that "I've wanted a Martin for years" you'll eventually go with the best playing guitar (whichever that is for you).
I thought I wanted a Martin until I played a bunch of other guitars, then I realized that most Martins aren't really players guitars.
It seems to be more of a nostalgic thing than a playing thing - most older people tend to go with the name Martin because they
know the name (Martin: est.1833), not because Martin's play the best (which is obvious when so many professional players that
play night after night switch from Martin to another brand (because the playability is better - long hrs of play night after night tend
to do that to musicians). Not that I'm implying you're a professional musician, but pro players want Playability and Consistency.
What happens if their guitar gets broken on tour - they want to be able to go down to the local guitar store, pick up a guitar, and
have it feel relatively the same as what you just had - and that's not really gonna happen with Martin - too many inconsistencies).
Artists that have "signature" Martins get them built to their own specs - and what's in the store isn't the same as what they have.
Personally my Taylor 814CE is the best playing acoustic guitar I've ever played - and it only took me 4 chords to decide that.

- Ian

I think that's a bit unfair. Fair enough if Martin aren't for you, but they're nowhere near as bad as gibson as far as inconsistencies go. Their quality control is still pretty good and they produce plenty of decent guitars that are worth the money. Definitely not worth writing off an entire brand.

ianvomsaal

fowls wrote:

I think that's a bit unfair. Fair enough if Martin aren't for you, but they're nowhere near as bad as gibson as far as inconsistencies go. Their quality control is still pretty good and they produce plenty of decent guitars that are worth the money. Definitely not worth writing off an entire brand.

I'm not writing off Martin - Martin make some good guitars (I owned a 1968 D35 - however, my Taylor plays better).
Martin’’s just not as consistent as say other makers like: Goodall, Collins, Froggy Bottom, Taylor, etc. Most Martin's
that are priced similarly to one of those guitars generally won't play as well or be as consistent (I said most and generally).
Gibson acoustics on the other hand (I agree with you) suck most of the time - there's terrible quality control at Gibson.

imnothere

I went ahead and bought one new from a local music store. Took it home. Carved out a little space for myself in the guest room, dragged in a stool and a lamp, flipped on the ye ol' 'net, looked up some chords and strum patterns, and away I went. My fingers hurt plenty, but in three mini-sessions I've memorized a few chords. This morning I finally strummed G-Cadd9-D without fumbling too much, and my 2-year-old daughter came in and danced in a sun beam. (Then walked off with a couple of picks, the sweet little thief.) If nothing else happens with the guitar endeavor, it won't matter. That was plenty fine.

As for workmanship and consistency and being old for my unflappable bent for owning a Martin -- I don't know. The strings are still where they should be, and nothing's cracked or broken off. I like the sounds the instruments allows, even from me. There's a beautiful smell of wood in the case, and the guitar is nice to look at it.

I'm happy with the purchase. Happy to learn and play.

Thank you for the responses and help.

Now look out, I'll take to singing soon.

Anon

imnothere wrote:

I'm happy with the purchase. Happy to learn and play.

Thank you for the responses and help.

Now look out, I'll take to singing soon.

congrats on the purchase, it's cool that you are happy with it. that's all that matters. what did you end up purchasing??

smiled at the bit about your little daughter stealing your picks. buy plenty, they have a habit of going walkabout, (mostly because i leave them laying around, i have no kids to blame!)!:)

lucylespian

Sweet !!!
What did you end up getting ?

Elderly Woman is a great song to practice that D, Cadd9, G progression.

Uncle Neil

Really glad to know that you're picking it up again. I feel like you're never too old to start playing guitar. If it's something you want to do and you're excited about, the rewards will be plentiful. There's no better feeling that really being able to play your favorite song for the first time.

And as everyone else asked, what did you end up purchasing?

imnothere

I was kind of hoping no one would ask, as I reversed my decision. Nearly.

Turns out the local music store had both an HD-28 and an OM-28V. Fondled both and came to prefer the OM-28V (no John Mayer signiture on this one). In addition to the way it sounds, I can't emphasis enough how good the guitar looks.

So, my first song. I haven't picked a victim yet, but perhaps I'll video the attempt.

Also, when can I expect my fingertips to feel normal again? The pain is almost interesting. That written, I'm up to 20-30 minutes of practice time before the digits scream mercy. So maybe there's hope.

lucylespian

imnothere wrote:

I was kind of hoping no one would ask, as I reversed my decision. Nearly.

Turns out the local music store had both an HD-28 and an OM-28V. Fondled both and came to prefer the OM-28V (no John Mayer signiture on this one). In addition to the way it sounds, I can't emphasis enough how good the guitar looks.

So, my first song. I haven't picked a victim yet, but perhaps I'll video the attempt.

Also, when can I expect my fingertips to feel normal again? The pain is almost interesting. That written, I'm up to 20-30 minutes of practice time before the digits scream mercy. So maybe there's hope.

Great choice !
Finger should be OK withiin a coupleof weeks.
Did you re-string it ? It will have 11's at least on it in a shop, 10's are much more forgiving, esp on virgin fingertips.

ianvomsaal

Just about all guitars come standard with lights (12's) or mediums (13's) - Depends on the size of the guitar.

- For DREADNOUGHT & JUMBO sized Martin guitars, the heaviest gauge Martin recommends is Mediums (13's) and
the lightest guage is Light (12's) - They both come standard from the factory with mediums (13's).
- For GRAND CONCERT (00), the heaviest is light (12's), the lightest is extra lights (10's) - they come standard with 12's.
- For AUDITORIUM (000) & ORCHESTRA (OM) sized models, heaviest is Light/Mediums (12.5), lightest is extra lights (10's).

Your OM-28V comes "Standard" with Martin Studio Performance Light Phosphor Bronze (MSP4100), meaning 12's.
I'd recommend you change the strings immediately if you haven't already (firstly, it'll be easier to play), but more-so
because there's no telling how long those strings were actually on the guitar before you bought it (could be a month
or two, could be a year or more). There's no doubt in my mind they needed changing - especially with how many
filthy dirty hands must have fondled the guitar before you bought it - yuck.

A good rule of thumb is change your acoustic strings every month & a half regardless (better tone & playability are the two
major factors why you'd do this). It's like changing the oil in your car every 3-months or 3,000 miles (whichever comes first).
Changing strings often will help maintain performance - meaning the best playability (big factor) & tone for your instrument.

I personally prefer Custom-Lights (11's) since they're far easier to play than the factory installed Lights (12-gauge strings).
I've also read that Martin recommends 11's if you're gonna step down a gauge and go a bit lighter - I have tried extra lights
(10's), but to me they just sound way to thin and small - which makes it difficult to get a good tone out of a guitar.
Anyhow, there's my 2-cents.

- Ian

lucylespian

Jeez, since when were 12's light ?
10's are plenty 11's are too much , 12's are for heroes, but as Joe said, string gauge is not a mark of manhood, or somethign similar.

imnothere

After some trial and plenty of error, I still f-ed up with winding on new strings. And I did so while swapping out the plastic (thank you, Martin) bridge pins with ebony. Finally went to you-tube and watched a few examples of how to string an acoustic steel-string guitar. I watched three or four different examples, and got three or four different opinions, and finally went with the vid. of the guy stringing a guitar in what looked like an actual guitar shop.

Have to say the video helped. I wound on D'Addario EXP Lights, which are 12s. Guy at the shop said the 11s and 10s will buzz, unless something or other is changed with the action, so I went with what Martin recommends.

I don't have much of an ear for it yet, but my initial review of the new pins and strings is . . . much, much better sound. They even feel good under the fingers. And about the newby fingers: They're numb still, but I can work on chords for quite a while. Not sure if numbness leads to toughness, but the end result seems okay.

That's my update. Except that I'm working on Better Man -- which means I'm literally one in several million. Ah, the Pearl Jam masses.

Thank you for reading along.

lucylespian

New strings are like new pussy !

ianvomsaal

imnothere wrote:

And I did so while swapping out the plastic (thank you, Martin) bridge pins with ebony.

Man you shoulda just asked, I'm sure one of us could have explained how to put new strings on.
Here you go: http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=4790974&postcount=5
BTW - a Taylor would have come with EBONY bridge pins

imnothere

Lucy,

Not to my touch -- but you do have a different perspective.