I only ever did one audition. The band was still kinda forming, and I asked then for a list of songs to prepare, which they could not give me, so I didn't really have enough to offer. I did not have the skills to wing solos, so nothing happened. They actually asked me back the next week, but when I turned up the drummer and the singer had bailed, but no-one bothered to tell me, so I wasted a Saturday afternoon. I think that's about standard for musos.
I have learnt since that having a list of songs to prepare is a crucial test of organization of both the band and the auditionee. In future, I would not bother to turn up for an audition that badly organized.
I only ever did one audition. The band was still kinda forming, and I asked then for a list of songs to prepare, which they could not give me, so I didn't really have enough to offer. I did not have the skills to wing solos, so nothing happened. They actually asked me back the next week, but when I turned up the drummer and the singer had bailed, but no-one bothered to tell me, so I wasted a Saturday afternoon. I think that's about standard for musos.
I have learnt since that having a list of songs to prepare is a crucial test of organization of both the band and the auditionee. In future, I would not bother to turn up for an audition that badly organized.
I totally agree with you. The last audition I went to was a complete joke. He didn't give me any songs at all. He played maybe about a minute of one of the tunes the band wrote and expected me to follow along and know the rhythm patterns. It was a total waste of time and the weirdest audition I have ever heard of or been to.
I totally agree with you. The last audition I went to was a complete joke. He didn't give me any songs at all. He played maybe about a minute of one of the tunes the band wrote and expected me to follow along and know the rhythm patterns. It was a total waste of time and the weirdest audition I have ever heard of or been to.
I have often found myself in awkward jam sessions as well, Utah has a strange brew of musicians that's for sure.
7/2/06 - Denver, CO
6/12/08 - Tampa, FL
8/23/09 - Chicago, IL
9/28/09 - Salt Lake City, UT (11 years too long!!!)
9/03/11 - East Troy, WI - PJ20 - Night 1
9/04/11 - East Troy, WI - PJ20 - Night 2
I did 4 or 5 trials. Most of times, it work quite well and I receive a "yes". Certainly because I am a bassist, more hard to find for a band.
A few months ago I went for a trial and there as only the drummer. He thought he was the best drummer on earth. I didn't go back.
Then I tried with two other musicians (drummer + guitarist/singer) and it worked very well from the first minute. We improvised and managed quite quickly to make good jams. We're still together and hpe to make a few shows in the coming months.
2006: Antwerp, Paris
2007: Copenhagen, Werchter
2009: Rotterdam, London
2010: MSG, Arras, Werchter
2012: Amsterdam, Prague, Berlin
2014: Amsterdam, Stockholm
I did 4 or 5 trials. Most of times, it work quite well and I receive a "yes". Certainly because I am a bassist, more hard to find for a band.
A few months ago I went for a trial and there as only the drummer. He thought he was the best drummer on earth. I didn't go back.
Then I tried with two other musicians (drummer + guitarist/singer) and it worked very well from the first minute. We improvised and managed quite quickly to make good jams. We're still together and hpe to make a few shows in the coming months.
Congrats man. Hopefully you guys will continue to gel together and do some live shows and maybe even record an album.
They actually asked me back the next week, but when I turned up the drummer and the singer had bailed, but no-one bothered to tell me, so I wasted a Saturday afternoon. I think that's about standard for musos.
Congrats man. Hopefully you guys will continue to gel together and do some live shows and maybe even record an album.
thanks !
we plan to maybe go one day in studio in one or two month(s) in order to have at least one track well recorded...
2006: Antwerp, Paris
2007: Copenhagen, Werchter
2009: Rotterdam, London
2010: MSG, Arras, Werchter
2012: Amsterdam, Prague, Berlin
2014: Amsterdam, Stockholm
there was a band that i talked to before i formed my own. their music was great---really all over the place, which is kind of how my own music is. they were looking for a lead singer/guitarist. they sent me a demo & to lay down some vocals on it & i thought i did a good job. a few days after i sent it, i got a call saying that i wouldn't write any lyrics/melodies/vocal lines. the bassist insisted on being the songwriter and was a jerk about it. i just thought it was absurd to ask someone to come in and just sing & play chords...no creativity needed. so i passed. the rest of the band tried changing his mind, but i'd already moved on to form my own band by the time they called me.
fast forward to 3-4 months later & we're on a shared bill with 4 other bands, one of which was that band that i had been talking to. right before they were about to go on, their new lead singer & that same bassist got into a heated argument and the singer walked out. so they played the set w/o vocals. we were next up and i thanked him from the stage for forcing me into forming my own band, because i enjoy the music much more, etc, etc. that was one of our best shows. i bought that guy a beer afterwards & told him that he needs to open up to new ideas and stop being such a jerk.
he then said "f off" and walked away. 2 months later, their band broke up. it was a shame...because they really did play well together, but that guy's ego just ruined it.
well, I will give you this warning based on my experiences and experiences of friends of mine.
A lot of the time when you join a band through an audition, you tend to feel a little separated from the rest of the band. Almost like you're just an employee. There's a lot of doing things their way. Playing in a band, or even just with other people is great experience and the best way to get better, so I say take any opportunity you have, but just keep that in mind.
Perhaps if you get accepted into one of these bands, start trying to set up some loose jam sessions with some friends. You'll find that everything tends to come a little more naturally. Personally, I've found that is the best way to form a band. Just jam out some covers and play around a little bit on some of your own riffs and if it's sounds like it has potential, work on it a bit.
I usually mesh with most original rock bands - personality conflicts trump someone's playing ability (& I won’t/don't audition for cover bands).
It's getting difficult to find decent musicians these days that are really serious about "making it" in the music business, let alone play originals.
It's difficult to find people that want to play originals - too many people want to play covers in bars and try to look cool (look, I'm in a band).
It's becoming an uncreative, or should I say unprogressive world we live in - There are just too many people that would rather focus on other
people's expression and creativity than make their own - be them gutless, afraid, lazy, or just un-creative themselves (a poser in disguise)
My friends and I started our band. Only 'outside' player is the bassist. We auditioned 3. The most talented musician was not the best fit. The guy that liked the music we played and was interested in playing and learning our genre of music fit the bill. His personality also meshed.
Ian, I am interested in your definition of 'making it'-
Digital music (iPod) sales format has added a new twist to the market. When I was a kid, we bought albums; now you buy songs.
Digital music has also made it easier to get your stuff out to the public. Which is good for everyone as a whole but floods the market with crap (IMO). I semi agree with your unprogressive world comment. I don't know how old you are but I have to think you are not in your 20s anymore (and I'm right there with ya so that's not an insult by any means.). Music seems to 'progress' for the teen/early 20s crowd (IMO). That's not to say that more mature bands are not making awesome music (ala PJ). But music is marketed for a younger generation than where I am. Those of us in our 30s and up are not marketed to via trends anymore. We are marketed to via high ass priced tickets and reunions of our bands that take is back to our twenties. We already have our mindset as to what good music is. The bands that I see as 'making it' right now are just not my cup of tea. That's not to say they aren't talented or are not gifted songwriters in their own right. Its also does not appear to me that rock music is in style right now for the younger kids.
Some things in life are just a matter of timing and I think music is a huge one.
Ian, I am interested in your definition of 'making it'.
http://forums.pearljam.com/member.php?u=38417
to me "making it" = getting a major label to back you, a financed tour,
& regular rotation on a major radio station (public radio doesn't count).
http://forums.pearljam.com/member.php?u=38417
to me "making it" = getting a major label to back you, a financed tour,
& regular rotation on a major radio station (public radio doesn't count).
what about supporting oneself as an independent artist? i'm just curious having read so many interesting stories of debt etc. etc. associated with major labels deals etc. Jennifer Trynin's book etc.
what about supporting oneself as an independent artist? i'm just curious having read so many interesting stories of debt etc. etc. associated with major labels deals etc. Jennifer Trynin's book etc.
It's more difficult to "make it" as an independent artist, but if as an independent artist you can afford to record a top notch album, and support yourself and everyone else including promotion, ticket sales, venue/theatre/equipment rental, roadies, techs, and travel expenses on a big tour, and are still able to get very regular rotation on air, then great/sure you've "made it" (not impossible) - but you usually end up owing someone something - a successful grass-roots movement is nice to think about, but they happen even less frequently than a big label deal (but it's a nice idea, and something to shoot for) . . .
If you're with a bigger label, yes you'll be in debt from the very beginning (their business is to make money), but remember that bands never make $$$ on album/song sales these days anyway (all that money + goes to the label to recoup the album cost, big time promotion, payoffs to get you played on the radio, the executives paychecks, etc). The money a band makes these days comes from the touring & merchandising. The average Amphitheatre holds 19,000 people, and think about what you payed for tickets to that last PJ show (average ticket price, times 19,000 seats, times X number of shows, plus merchandise = $$$). A lot of it goes to pay the bills, but a lot also goes to the band (it's almost half & half). Why do you think a band does a World Tour - to make money. It's HARD, and most aren't doing it for their fans - it's how they make a living (plus they get off being on stage).
what about supporting oneself as an independent artist? i'm just curious having read so many interesting stories of debt etc. etc. associated with major labels deals etc. Jennifer Trynin's book etc.
I think that's the tricky bit. Also there is the probability effect to negotiate, ie, only a small percentage of potentials will actually "make it". The rest make up the other 99.9999999999% of the bell curve, inevitably.
Or these days you can be offered a "360 degree deal", which I think is industry code for getting screwed on tours and merch as well as album sales.
so, to put in it in other terms perhaps, what is success? is it the exposure or the ability to eat.
for instance, can one be an independent, perhaps not making a "top notch" album production wise, or a world tour with roadies etc. etc., but using the internet for exposure, not biting off more than you can chew etc. can one make a living without being a rock star?
i understand that's not "making it" in the context we're discussing but it's interesting to wonder about. but i suppose the vast majority of people in that category still have conventional jobs as well.
oh well, when i get laid off here this week i'm going to make it big as an elvis costello impersonator.
so, to put in it in other terms perhaps, what is success? is it the exposure or the ability to eat.
for instance, can one be an independent, perhaps not making a "top notch" album production wise, or a world tour with roadies etc. etc., but using the internet for exposure, not biting off more than you can chew etc. can one make a living without being a rock star?
i understand that's not "making it" in the context we're discussing but it's interesting to wonder about. but i suppose the vast majority of people in that category still have conventional jobs as well.
oh well, when i get laid off here this week i'm going to make it big as an elvis costello impersonator.
Good question !
I think teh whole cocept of "rock-star" is incredibly harmful to the whole music scene. It funnels so much money into one act, and away frrom everyone else. It polarises the effort of the big labels onto backing a minute number of artists, and also takes a lot of varitey away. Everyone is so obsessed with finding or being the next Britney or Robbie, that no-one is really looking at quality or diversity. You also get producers producuing formula bands like the Pussy Cat Dolls etc, and even fewer fine artists get a go at the cherry. There is also no longevity to super fame. So, yeah, tortoise over the hare in this race, I think.
so, to put in it in other terms perhaps, what is success? is it the exposure or the ability to eat.
for instance, can one be an independent, perhaps not making a "top notch" album production wise, or a world tour with roadies etc. etc., but using the internet for exposure, not biting off more than you can chew etc. can one make a living without being a rock star?
i understand that's not "making it" in the context we're discussing but it's interesting to wonder about. but i suppose the vast majority of people in that category still have conventional jobs as well.
oh well, when i get laid off here this week i'm going to make it big as an elvis costello impersonator.
Haha, well, someone just told me I look like Jan Michael Vincent. I have to look that one up to see what the hell that means. Maybe we could do a tour! Nobody's buying houses for me to inspect, might as well go for the buck! You've got the Tele for Elvis. Do you have a black suit?
The question you ask is a major subject for another thread, too! What constitutes success?
I think the last few years are a turning point in the world of music. The independent musician DOES have the capacity to make a good sounding CD and make a living without a record company, but they need the creativity and business acumen to figure out a way to do it.
I spent my years in the biz playing guitar on the road with some pretty major, and some pretty crappy bands, having a record contract with big labels who provided a living wage to do that, but at the same time had people hand out barbiturates to sleep on the bus, and amphetamines to wake up for the show. This was back in the 70's and went into the 80's and may well still go on. I think for the most part, the major labels never were HUGELY interested in the music, but more making a profit from it. I don't begrudge them that because that's what business is, but there is a nostalgic memory that record companies were this nurturing entity to help out bands in the old days.
I have a friend who's this huge 7 foot scary looking dude who used to travel with Led Zeppelin in the 70's. He carried a gun and spent his time looking scary to collect the money for the gigs. Gigs like Madison Square Garden, where the promotors tried to rip off the bands. I mean, really, Led Zeppelin had to battle a gig like MSG for their pay. Same as the local band that has to wait till 3:00 am for their pay in a club!
I think that the indie musician has to use to use the same creativity that they use to make music to make a living if that's what they want to do.
You CAN do it yourself. Whoever figures out a way to harness the internet to work their art is at a great advantage.
Be kind, man
Don't be mankind. ~Captain Beefheart
__________________________________
I only ever did one audition. The band was still kinda forming, and I asked then for a list of songs to prepare, which they could not give me, so I didn't really have enough to offer. I did not have the skills to wing solos, so nothing happened. They actually asked me back the next week, but when I turned up the drummer and the singer had bailed, but no-one bothered to tell me, so I wasted a Saturday afternoon. I think that's about standard for musos.
I have learnt since that having a list of songs to prepare is a crucial test of organization of both the band and the auditionee. In future, I would not bother to turn up for an audition that badly organized.
I had totally similar experience last month ~ showing up and it was really just one guy who had a lot of ideas, "knew a drummer and an awesome bass player" but in reality just had a handful of original lyrics that he sang to me, one after the other
We didn't connect, it didn't go well, and I bailed :(
At first I was bummed because we didn't 'click', there wasn't that magical musical nirvana going on ... but in hindsight, it's actually made me feel better about myself as a musician. I learned a bit about my comfort level and what I have the courage to try, I loved the rhythms I threw out there, and it wasn't me so much as there was just very little there.
IThere are just too many people that would rather focus on other people's expression and creativity than make their own - be them gutless, afraid, lazy, or just un-creative themselves (a poser in disguise)
Haha, well, someone just told me I look like Jan Michael Vincent. I have to look that one up to see what the hell that means. Maybe we could do a tour! Nobody's buying houses for me to inspect, might as well go for the buck! You've got the Tele for Elvis. Do you have a black suit?.
i'd need a jazzmaster i guess. i do have the suit but i look more like current day elvis than young elvis.
but, it appears i still have my job (for at least a few more months) so i guess the world tour's off.
So what is that track on your myspace?
Very well play by the way, but.....
It was basically done as a joke (as I've stated on here many times in the past).
It's stated as a joke if you read the top of my profile under "2003 - Vai Cover".
Friends of mine kept joking with me saying "dude when are you going to record
a shred tune" (knowing how I felt about it - like an annoying gnat in your ear),
so I finally gave them one. I've never really taken that kind of playing seriously.
It's basically just a lot of wow factor and not much feeling (it's actually boring).
I'd post an original tune but I left the last band I was in about a year ago, and
I don't really want to promote the music of a band I'm not with anymore - so I
kept the joke instead (and 5-years later they still seem to get a laugh over it).
It was basically done as a joke (as I've stated on here many times in the past).
It's stated as a joke if you read the top of my profile under "2003 - Vai Cover".
Friends of mine kept joking with me saying "dude when are you going to record
a shred tune" (knowing how I felt about it - like an annoying gnat in your ear),
so I finally gave them one. I've never really taken that kind of playing seriously.
It's basically just a lot of wow factor and not much feeling (it's actually boring).
I'd post an original tune but I left the last band I was in about a year ago, and
I don't really want to promote the music of a band I'm not with anymore - so I
kept the joke instead (and 5-years later they still seem to get a laugh over it).
Great cover by the way Ian. Quick question....do you prefer the shredding type of players like EVH, Steve Vai, Satriani, or do you prefer the bluesy more of a feel type of player like Clapton, Mayer, B.B. King, SRV and so on.
Great cover by the way Ian. Quick question....do you prefer the shredding type of players like EVH, Steve Vai, Satriani, or do you prefer the bluesy more of a feel type of player like Clapton, Mayer, B.B. King, SRV and so on.
I'm NOT a shred fan - I guess I've always been under the impression that just
because you can do something doesn't mean that you need to . I actually
borrowed a JEM for that tune since out of the 33-guitars owned at the time
not a single one had a floyd rose - I really hate those wanker tremolos, so I
guess they're just not for me (lol) - give me a set bridge or Les Paul any day.
To answer your question, I guess it all has it's place - I prefer a well rounded
player. I don't like Clapton, and I'm not a fan of BB King. SRV can get boring
just like Vai and Satch can. Lately I've been listening to Joe Bonamassa's
"Live From Nowhere in Particular", but that has no bearing on whether I'll like
him next month. I'm a big "LIVE" performance type guy because just like my
Vai recording, anything can be done in the studio, but shabby musicianship
can't really be covered up live. I've also been watching the Zappa plays
Zappa DVD (some really good all around musicianship on that), and I actually
enjoyed Dweezil and Vai trading licks but I preferred Dweezils playing more (I
hate the way Vai always makes those fake "look how hard this is" looks). I
guess rounded players like Steve Morse always seem to do it for me more.
I think the last few years are a turning point in the world of music. The independent musician DOES have the capacity to make a good sounding CD and make a living without a record company, but they need the creativity and business acumen to figure out a way to do it...
I think for the most part, the major labels never were HUGELY interested in the music, but more making a profit from it. I don't begrudge them that because that's what business is, but there is a nostalgic memory that record companies were this nurturing entity to help out bands in the old days...
I think that the indie musician has to use to use the same creativity that they use to make music to make a living if that's what they want to do.
You CAN do it yourself. Whoever figures out a way to harness the internet to work their art is at a great advantage.
I actually wrote a paper on this for one of my post-grad business classes in college. The basic gist of my paper was that major labels would suffer because they're being absorbed by mass-media conglomerates who don't really know anything about music. One of the reasons that labels in the late 60's to early 90's were more profitable was that labels were run by music geeks. Same with old promoters... Bill Graham wasn't always necessarily a big fan of the music he promoted, but he made it his breathing purpose to scout real talent. These old guys lived their business, and poured every bit of their acumen into finding real talent, not hollow faces.
These new corporate label structures have some MBA picking the acts based on numbers. The movie company bought out the tv company, and later on they bought the record label, and now they're running all of them. It gives them some advantages in cross-promotion, etc., but it means that you've got the movie guy running the label. Look at Wilco's YHF album debacle... one guy who couldn't understand genius if it was pissing down his throat decided to cut the band from the label; the band walks away from their contract with the album paid for, then sells it again to a subsidiary label of the company that cut them; the album goes on to be the most buzz-worthy album of the year, and sells incredibly well.
It's like the corporation that owns Olive Garden buys a chain of sushi restaurants, and assuming that the CEO who knows shitty Italian restaurants will do great at sushi. It's an obvious fallacy.
The reason that independant bands and independant labels will succeed, and the majors will be seriously hurt, is that the indies know their subject. Dischord, Vagrant, Secretly Canadian... they all know what is subjectively "good" within their genres, and they continue to have success within their niches. They're also learning how to tailor their business to internet commerce as well as independant retailers, which is the only way they can compete with Walmart / Target / Borders as music retailers.
The majors are still stuck on the idea that a band needs to push 100,000 copies of an album to break even, and 500,000 to be a success. I think we could all name successful bands or artists who never saw an album break 500,000 copies. I mean, what's the total copies sold of Pavement's Crooked Rain? And that's a legendary record.
The small labels and indie artists will be able to survive in the same way that mammals survived when dinosaurs died off... they're more agile, more adaptable, and more self-sufficient with less waste. The only thing that sucks is when a successful indie artist has a breakout album on an indie, then signs with a major, a la Modest Mouse, Death Cab, even Nirvana... But so long as the indie label gets a good settlement from the major, they'll still be finding new, real, talented acts.
...and if you don't like it, you can suck on an egg.
I'm a big "LIVE" performance type guy because just like my Vai recording, anything can be done in the studio, but shabby musicianship
can't really be covered up live.
Agree with the comment regarding the studio. Reasonably good can be turned into wow so easily.
Just one thing on your comment about the shabby musicianship, not being able to be covered up live. I hear what you are saying here, but honestly, from my experience, the general crowd are just looking for the wow factor. A lot of them wouldn't know shabby musicianship if it bit them on the butt. I've been to shows where people are going zomg he is teh awesome one, at some sucky guitarist who's just a show off poser, spending half the night pretending to play an 18-string guitar behind his back and creating the "J" chord...
and then i've seen some of the best, and people say oh yeah that was ok, or he is boring....
Agree with the comment regarding the studio. Reasonably good can be turned into wow so easily.
Just one thing on your comment about the shabby musicianship, not being able to be covered up live. I hear what you are saying here, but honestly, from my experience, the general crowd are just looking for the wow factor. A lot of them wouldn't know shabby musicianship if it bit them on the butt. I've been to shows where people are going zomg he is teh awesome one, at some sucky guitarist who's just a show off poser, spending half the night pretending to play an 18-string guitar behind his back and creating the "J" chord...
and then i've seen some of the best, and people say oh yeah that was ok, or he is boring....
Makes me smile.
of coarse i'm referring to the more experienced musicians being able to pick up on shabby
musicianship (not the average musically inept public) - and i'd sure hope that most of the
m&g regulars are somewhat educated on "decent-musicianship" by now (hopefully, lol).
I'm guessing he's talking about the vai cover? yeah that's very cool.
I love you and tony and your ''one'' cover. Damn that's so awesome.
yeah he loves singing - i think we did maybe 3 covers total that night - i was soo sick.
even if i have to play a cover once in a while, at least i try to make it a little different.
with his level of spinal injury he doesn't get out much, so when i can help him out i do.
i've known tony for about 8-years now (one of my best friends, and a really great guy).
if you liked that tune you should hear some of the originals, if only i had some recorded.
actually tony does have a few recordings that he did years ago on his website - he was
awarded an art grant through the arts council to produce, market, & distribute pro copies
of the ep 'under no flag' http://www.anthonyrainstarez.com. i played electric & acoustic
on a few songs - also played acoustic for him in the "more songs (mp3s)" area (3-tunes).
of coarse i'm referring to the more experienced musicians being able to pick up on shabby
musicianship (not the average musically inept public) - and i'd sure hope that most of the
m&g regulars are somewhat educated on "decent-musicianship" by now (hopefully, lol).
Haha yes i know that's what you meant. I'm sure some of my friends are muttering ''Stay away from me, captain serious, sheesh'', under their breaths when i try to educate them on what's good and what's not so good
Jam10
Posts: 654
Comments
I have learnt since that having a list of songs to prepare is a crucial test of organization of both the band and the auditionee. In future, I would not bother to turn up for an audition that badly organized.
I have often found myself in awkward jam sessions as well, Utah has a strange brew of musicians that's for sure.
6/12/08 - Tampa, FL
8/23/09 - Chicago, IL
9/28/09 - Salt Lake City, UT (11 years too long!!!)
9/03/11 - East Troy, WI - PJ20 - Night 1
9/04/11 - East Troy, WI - PJ20 - Night 2
A few months ago I went for a trial and there as only the drummer. He thought he was the best drummer on earth. I didn't go back.
Then I tried with two other musicians (drummer + guitarist/singer) and it worked very well from the first minute. We improvised and managed quite quickly to make good jams. We're still together and hpe to make a few shows in the coming months.
2007: Copenhagen, Werchter
2009: Rotterdam, London
2010: MSG, Arras, Werchter
2012: Amsterdam, Prague, Berlin
2014: Amsterdam, Stockholm
haha. totally my experience years ago too.
we plan to maybe go one day in studio in one or two month(s) in order to have at least one track well recorded...
2007: Copenhagen, Werchter
2009: Rotterdam, London
2010: MSG, Arras, Werchter
2012: Amsterdam, Prague, Berlin
2014: Amsterdam, Stockholm
fast forward to 3-4 months later & we're on a shared bill with 4 other bands, one of which was that band that i had been talking to. right before they were about to go on, their new lead singer & that same bassist got into a heated argument and the singer walked out. so they played the set w/o vocals. we were next up and i thanked him from the stage for forcing me into forming my own band, because i enjoy the music much more, etc, etc. that was one of our best shows. i bought that guy a beer afterwards & told him that he needs to open up to new ideas and stop being such a jerk.
he then said "f off" and walked away. 2 months later, their band broke up. it was a shame...because they really did play well together, but that guy's ego just ruined it.
www.cluthelee.com
www.cluthe.com
A lot of the time when you join a band through an audition, you tend to feel a little separated from the rest of the band. Almost like you're just an employee. There's a lot of doing things their way. Playing in a band, or even just with other people is great experience and the best way to get better, so I say take any opportunity you have, but just keep that in mind.
Perhaps if you get accepted into one of these bands, start trying to set up some loose jam sessions with some friends. You'll find that everything tends to come a little more naturally. Personally, I've found that is the best way to form a band. Just jam out some covers and play around a little bit on some of your own riffs and if it's sounds like it has potential, work on it a bit.
It's getting difficult to find decent musicians these days that are really serious about "making it" in the music business, let alone play originals.
It's difficult to find people that want to play originals - too many people want to play covers in bars and try to look cool (look, I'm in a band).
It's becoming an uncreative, or should I say unprogressive world we live in - There are just too many people that would rather focus on other
people's expression and creativity than make their own - be them gutless, afraid, lazy, or just un-creative themselves (a poser in disguise)
<b><font color="red">CONTACT ME HERE</font>: www.myspace.com/ianvomsaal</b>
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Ian, I am interested in your definition of 'making it'-
Digital music (iPod) sales format has added a new twist to the market. When I was a kid, we bought albums; now you buy songs.
Digital music has also made it easier to get your stuff out to the public. Which is good for everyone as a whole but floods the market with crap (IMO). I semi agree with your unprogressive world comment. I don't know how old you are but I have to think you are not in your 20s anymore (and I'm right there with ya so that's not an insult by any means.). Music seems to 'progress' for the teen/early 20s crowd (IMO). That's not to say that more mature bands are not making awesome music (ala PJ). But music is marketed for a younger generation than where I am. Those of us in our 30s and up are not marketed to via trends anymore. We are marketed to via high ass priced tickets and reunions of our bands that take is back to our twenties. We already have our mindset as to what good music is. The bands that I see as 'making it' right now are just not my cup of tea. That's not to say they aren't talented or are not gifted songwriters in their own right. Its also does not appear to me that rock music is in style right now for the younger kids.
Some things in life are just a matter of timing and I think music is a huge one.
to me "making it" = getting a major label to back you, a financed tour,
& regular rotation on a major radio station (public radio doesn't count).
<b><font color="red">CONTACT ME HERE</font>: www.myspace.com/ianvomsaal</b>
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what about supporting oneself as an independent artist? i'm just curious having read so many interesting stories of debt etc. etc. associated with major labels deals etc. Jennifer Trynin's book etc.
If you're with a bigger label, yes you'll be in debt from the very beginning (their business is to make money), but remember that bands never make $$$ on album/song sales these days anyway (all that money + goes to the label to recoup the album cost, big time promotion, payoffs to get you played on the radio, the executives paychecks, etc). The money a band makes these days comes from the touring & merchandising. The average Amphitheatre holds 19,000 people, and think about what you payed for tickets to that last PJ show (average ticket price, times 19,000 seats, times X number of shows, plus merchandise = $$$). A lot of it goes to pay the bills, but a lot also goes to the band (it's almost half & half). Why do you think a band does a World Tour - to make money. It's HARD, and most aren't doing it for their fans - it's how they make a living (plus they get off being on stage).
<b><font color="red">CONTACT ME HERE</font>: www.myspace.com/ianvomsaal</b>
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I think that's the tricky bit. Also there is the probability effect to negotiate, ie, only a small percentage of potentials will actually "make it". The rest make up the other 99.9999999999% of the bell curve, inevitably.
Or these days you can be offered a "360 degree deal", which I think is industry code for getting screwed on tours and merch as well as album sales.
for instance, can one be an independent, perhaps not making a "top notch" album production wise, or a world tour with roadies etc. etc., but using the internet for exposure, not biting off more than you can chew etc. can one make a living without being a rock star?
i understand that's not "making it" in the context we're discussing but it's interesting to wonder about. but i suppose the vast majority of people in that category still have conventional jobs as well.
oh well, when i get laid off here this week i'm going to make it big as an elvis costello impersonator.
Good question !
I think teh whole cocept of "rock-star" is incredibly harmful to the whole music scene. It funnels so much money into one act, and away frrom everyone else. It polarises the effort of the big labels onto backing a minute number of artists, and also takes a lot of varitey away. Everyone is so obsessed with finding or being the next Britney or Robbie, that no-one is really looking at quality or diversity. You also get producers producuing formula bands like the Pussy Cat Dolls etc, and even fewer fine artists get a go at the cherry. There is also no longevity to super fame. So, yeah, tortoise over the hare in this race, I think.
Haha, well, someone just told me I look like Jan Michael Vincent. I have to look that one up to see what the hell that means. Maybe we could do a tour! Nobody's buying houses for me to inspect, might as well go for the buck! You've got the Tele for Elvis. Do you have a black suit?
The question you ask is a major subject for another thread, too! What constitutes success?
I think the last few years are a turning point in the world of music. The independent musician DOES have the capacity to make a good sounding CD and make a living without a record company, but they need the creativity and business acumen to figure out a way to do it.
I spent my years in the biz playing guitar on the road with some pretty major, and some pretty crappy bands, having a record contract with big labels who provided a living wage to do that, but at the same time had people hand out barbiturates to sleep on the bus, and amphetamines to wake up for the show. This was back in the 70's and went into the 80's and may well still go on. I think for the most part, the major labels never were HUGELY interested in the music, but more making a profit from it. I don't begrudge them that because that's what business is, but there is a nostalgic memory that record companies were this nurturing entity to help out bands in the old days.
I have a friend who's this huge 7 foot scary looking dude who used to travel with Led Zeppelin in the 70's. He carried a gun and spent his time looking scary to collect the money for the gigs. Gigs like Madison Square Garden, where the promotors tried to rip off the bands. I mean, really, Led Zeppelin had to battle a gig like MSG for their pay. Same as the local band that has to wait till 3:00 am for their pay in a club!
I think that the indie musician has to use to use the same creativity that they use to make music to make a living if that's what they want to do.
You CAN do it yourself. Whoever figures out a way to harness the internet to work their art is at a great advantage.
Don't be mankind. ~Captain Beefheart
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I had totally similar experience last month ~ showing up and it was really just one guy who had a lot of ideas, "knew a drummer and an awesome bass player" but in reality just had a handful of original lyrics that he sang to me, one after the other
We didn't connect, it didn't go well, and I bailed :(
At first I was bummed because we didn't 'click', there wasn't that magical musical nirvana going on ... but in hindsight, it's actually made me feel better about myself as a musician. I learned a bit about my comfort level and what I have the courage to try, I loved the rhythms I threw out there, and it wasn't me so much as there was just very little there.
Good luck to ya, we keep on growing
So what is that track on your myspace?
Very well play by the way, but.....
i'd need a jazzmaster i guess. i do have the suit but i look more like current day elvis than young elvis.
but, it appears i still have my job (for at least a few more months) so i guess the world tour's off.
It's stated as a joke if you read the top of my profile under "2003 - Vai Cover".
Friends of mine kept joking with me saying "dude when are you going to record
a shred tune" (knowing how I felt about it - like an annoying gnat in your ear),
so I finally gave them one. I've never really taken that kind of playing seriously.
It's basically just a lot of wow factor and not much feeling (it's actually boring).
I'd post an original tune but I left the last band I was in about a year ago, and
I don't really want to promote the music of a band I'm not with anymore - so I
kept the joke instead (and 5-years later they still seem to get a laugh over it).
<b><font color="red">CONTACT ME HERE</font>: www.myspace.com/ianvomsaal</b>
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because you can do something doesn't mean that you need to
borrowed a JEM for that tune since out of the 33-guitars owned at the time
not a single one had a floyd rose - I really hate those wanker tremolos, so I
guess they're just not for me (lol) - give me a set bridge or Les Paul any day.
To answer your question, I guess it all has it's place - I prefer a well rounded
player. I don't like Clapton, and I'm not a fan of BB King. SRV can get boring
just like Vai and Satch can. Lately I've been listening to Joe Bonamassa's
"Live From Nowhere in Particular", but that has no bearing on whether I'll like
him next month. I'm a big "LIVE" performance type guy because just like my
Vai recording, anything can be done in the studio, but shabby musicianship
can't really be covered up live. I've also been watching the Zappa plays
Zappa DVD (some really good all around musicianship on that), and I actually
enjoyed Dweezil and Vai trading licks but I preferred Dweezils playing more (I
hate the way Vai always makes those fake "look how hard this is" looks). I
guess rounded players like Steve Morse always seem to do it for me more.
<b><font color="red">CONTACT ME HERE</font>: www.myspace.com/ianvomsaal</b>
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I actually wrote a paper on this for one of my post-grad business classes in college. The basic gist of my paper was that major labels would suffer because they're being absorbed by mass-media conglomerates who don't really know anything about music. One of the reasons that labels in the late 60's to early 90's were more profitable was that labels were run by music geeks. Same with old promoters... Bill Graham wasn't always necessarily a big fan of the music he promoted, but he made it his breathing purpose to scout real talent. These old guys lived their business, and poured every bit of their acumen into finding real talent, not hollow faces.
These new corporate label structures have some MBA picking the acts based on numbers. The movie company bought out the tv company, and later on they bought the record label, and now they're running all of them. It gives them some advantages in cross-promotion, etc., but it means that you've got the movie guy running the label. Look at Wilco's YHF album debacle... one guy who couldn't understand genius if it was pissing down his throat decided to cut the band from the label; the band walks away from their contract with the album paid for, then sells it again to a subsidiary label of the company that cut them; the album goes on to be the most buzz-worthy album of the year, and sells incredibly well.
It's like the corporation that owns Olive Garden buys a chain of sushi restaurants, and assuming that the CEO who knows shitty Italian restaurants will do great at sushi. It's an obvious fallacy.
The reason that independant bands and independant labels will succeed, and the majors will be seriously hurt, is that the indies know their subject. Dischord, Vagrant, Secretly Canadian... they all know what is subjectively "good" within their genres, and they continue to have success within their niches. They're also learning how to tailor their business to internet commerce as well as independant retailers, which is the only way they can compete with Walmart / Target / Borders as music retailers.
The majors are still stuck on the idea that a band needs to push 100,000 copies of an album to break even, and 500,000 to be a success. I think we could all name successful bands or artists who never saw an album break 500,000 copies. I mean, what's the total copies sold of Pavement's Crooked Rain? And that's a legendary record.
The small labels and indie artists will be able to survive in the same way that mammals survived when dinosaurs died off... they're more agile, more adaptable, and more self-sufficient with less waste. The only thing that sucks is when a successful indie artist has a breakout album on an indie, then signs with a major, a la Modest Mouse, Death Cab, even Nirvana... But so long as the indie label gets a good settlement from the major, they'll still be finding new, real, talented acts.
Just one thing on your comment about the shabby musicianship, not being able to be covered up live. I hear what you are saying here, but honestly, from my experience, the general crowd are just looking for the wow factor. A lot of them wouldn't know shabby musicianship if it bit them on the butt. I've been to shows where people are going zomg he is teh awesome one, at some sucky guitarist who's just a show off poser, spending half the night pretending to play an 18-string guitar behind his back and creating the "J" chord...
and then i've seen some of the best, and people say oh yeah that was ok, or he is boring....
Makes me smile.
I love you and tony and your ''one'' cover. Damn that's so awesome.
musicianship (not the average musically inept public) - and i'd sure hope that most of the
m&g regulars are somewhat educated on "decent-musicianship" by now
even if i have to play a cover once in a while, at least i try to make it a little different.
with his level of spinal injury he doesn't get out much, so when i can help him out i do.
i've known tony for about 8-years now (one of my best friends, and a really great guy).
if you liked that tune you should hear some of the originals, if only i had some recorded.
actually tony does have a few recordings that he did years ago on his website - he was
awarded an art grant through the arts council to produce, market, & distribute pro copies
of the ep 'under no flag' http://www.anthonyrainstarez.com. i played electric & acoustic
on a few songs - also played acoustic for him in the "more songs (mp3s)" area (3-tunes).
<b><font color="red">CONTACT ME HERE</font>: www.myspace.com/ianvomsaal</b>
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