Digital Distortion in WWS???

acutejam

CAUTION -- DON'T READ ANY FURTHER IF YOU'RE TOTALLY HAPPY WITH AVOCADO -- once yer ear starts to hear this stuff, identify it, there's no going back....

I really can't tell -- but listen close to the first minute of World Wide Suicide. Is that just the typical distortion, or a bit to crisp and peaky -- ie the dreaded digital distortion (clipped signals)!!! I kinda think it's the later.

I heard it right off the bat, first listen, and went "Oh crap, not another messed up release..." The last one I noticed was Rush's Vapor Trails -- they were in the studio for 2 years and some of the very first jams actually made it all the way to the master, and so much processing and pumpin it up got it to the point where it's just digitally peaked -- Geddy was heart-broken, Alex was in Hawaii and said "Just release it..."

Here's a really good article on what's up with these LOUDER and LOUDER releases -- shows the wave for Vapor Trails vs Older albums-- labels trying to make sure their artists are LOUDEST on the radio....

http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/files/8A133F52D0FD71AB86256C2E005DAF1C

keeponrockin

Fantastic article! I'll have to listen to Pearl Jam more closely.

exhausted

yeah, i find it pretty harsh.

but then again, everything i mix sounds like mud so maybe my ears are screwed up.

BinFrog

acutejam wrote:

CAUTION -- DON'T READ ANY FURTHER IF YOU'RE TOTALLY HAPPY WITH AVOCADO -- once yer ear starts to hear this stuff, identify it, there's no going back....

I really can't tell -- but listen close to the first minute of World Wide Suicide. Is that just the typical distortion, or a bit to crisp and peaky -- ie the dreaded digital distortion (clipped signals)!!! I kinda think it's the later.

I heard it right off the bat, first listen, and went "Oh crap, not another messed up release..." The last one I noticed was Rush's Vapor Trails -- they were in the studio for 2 years and some of the very first jams actually made it all the way to the master, and so much processing and pumpin it up got it to the point where it's just digitally peaked -- Geddy was heart-broken, Alex was in Hawaii and said "Just release it..."

Here's a really good article on what's up with these LOUDER and LOUDER releases -- shows the wave for Vapor Trails vs Older albums-- labels trying to make sure their artists are LOUDEST on the radio....

http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/files/8A133F52D0FD71AB86256C2E005DAF1C

Funny you mention Vapor Trails. when I heard the clipping issues on the new PJ album, Vaport Trails is immediately what I thought of. 2 great albums that need to be remastered from the original sources.

BinFrog

The best example of clipping on the new album is the first few measures of Marker In The Sand. The final mixdown engineer for that song should be arrested.

JofZ

so who has heard it on vinyl?
I find CD's sterile and it could be what you hearing is the limitations of the digital media, not the mix. But then again, who knows and to be honest who cares

exhausted

JofZ wrote:

so who has heard it on vinyl?
I find CD's sterile and it could be what you hearing is the limitations of the digital media, not the mix. But then again, who knows and to be honest who cares

i do when it hurts to listen to the record at an even remotely loud level. someone as tone concious as yourself should care about the end product as well.

acutejam

JofZ wrote:

so who has heard it on vinyl?
I find CD's sterile and it could be what you hearing is the limitations of the digital media, not the mix. But then again, who knows and to be honest who cares

Ya the quoted article above had a good point -- albums that are recorded TOO HIGH ARE LIKE READING IN ALL CAPS -- your ears(eyes) don't get a break and it's tough to listen to. Just wears you out.

Too crisp and clean?!?!? kinda yeah, wiht loudest parts clipping/clicking/distorting. Sterile, kinda yeah -- but sterlie at low volume is ok -- STERILE PUMPED TO MAX IS ANNOYING.

And yeah I care cause it just bugs me, like shitty MP3s (not as bad as that) but once you hear the clipping, it's annoying. And yeah, it's the engineers fault but it's the label's calling for it...

Trying to hear those hammer-ons in the beginning of WWS and all I hear is the clipping...
Interesting point -- is it on the Vinyl too? No clue if that would transfer from the master, but I suspect so -- it happens at the recording/mixing stage I think, if it's on the master then?

All Those Yesterdays

Way way to much music comes out these days with digital distortion. AKA the worst thing ever. It's ridiculous. But its the way any more with Digital recording taking over.

I'll stick with my analog recording and post production and be happy with it.

JofZ

Guys we live in a digital age!
Every major release has to be both digital and radio friendly. The mixs that studios have been releasing over the last 5 years have sucked ass and most people including myself have gotten used to it.
My suggestion is not blame the band, but instead get the vinyl.
Look for re-masters of the good old stuff. A great example is all the Boston releases which were let go on CD without the bands authorization and are now being remastered with the proper mix.

I have to tell you if you have your music up so loud that it hurts you should turn it down and save your hearing. Like all kids this is a phase you will eventually grow out of, but you are doing major damage to your ears and I hate listening to your music bleeding into my car LOL

exhausted

i'm finding more and more records fatique my ears, even though i'm not listening in an ear damage range.

but then it's funny how i can listen to say, the muse records, at the same level as some of these other tracks and not have it hurt. the muse records being very digital overall. and they're covered with fuzz factory tracks, the most abrasive non musical pedal i've ever played.

hell, even NIN records don't have that characteristic.

the worst record that comes to my mind recently is the foos' "one by one". the drums on that thing distort through almost the entire record. it's terrible.

All Those Yesterdays

It's going to be on the record or the cd. They all come from the same final mix down.

moster78

exhausted wrote:

the worst record that comes to my mind recently is the foos' "one by one". the drums on that thing distort through almost the entire record. it's terrible.

I think I read something where Dave Grohl even said he doesn't like that album and can't see himself ever really listening to it or playing stuff off it again.

mancore

the stupid thing is a radio station can play jeremy and wws back to back and they will be the same volume due to the compression all broadcasters will use anyway. Im a mastering engineer and i cant stand it. you can get the volume out of it so long as its recorded extremely well.

recording onto tape will always sound superior but its far more expensive and more fiddley.

listenning to no code is like audio silk campared to pearl jam!

exhausted

i love the sound of "no code".

mancore

I do think the band were going for a colder more harsh sound for this record though, therefore probably thought it was very 'punk' to let everything clip and distort

good production can still be achieved though, riot act sounds nice to the ear, just takes a little more care regarding EQ and mixing etc, which is funny as 'pearl jam' is the longest they've spent making a record

J.D.

I recently bought the new Derek Trucks Band CD, Songlines. One of the most well recorded/mixed releases I've heard in awhile. Mixed and recorded with Pro Tools. So it can be done.

mancore

yea it can happen if the band cares, deadwing by porcupine tree sounds fantastic too. i guess they wanted it raw this time

J.D.

I don't have too much of an issue with the sound of Avacado, but played loud, certain songs are bit much.

Life Wasted really is the harshest for me and the guitars are what do it on that track. The rest sounds pretty good to me. Raw for sure, but I likes mine raw!

the unseen

i'm suprised no one sees what is going on here......

this isnt a conspiracy by the labels to have the loudest track played over the radio airwaves.

it's much bigger than that.

this has been put into place by the government,parents and the health insurance companys.


whats one of the first acts of rebellion a child makes when he's coming into his own,an act that leads to years of hassles between the child and his parental unit?

cranking the stereo.

maybe the labels are getting tax breaks,or a blind eye is looked to whatever the current form of payola is in practice to get such shit bands like *insert the name of most anything on a clear channel owned playlist these day* such massive airplay today,but whatever the reason,at the governments request,the labels are having records mixed in such a way that discourages play at loud volumes.

if junior cant play his newest judas priest record at loud levels,he wont be sucked into a world of drugs,booze or teen sex. nor will he be able to hear the messages buried in the tracks to kill his classmates.....and more important,the bass thumps and kick drums wont give mom a headache as she works to get dinner ready.

no loud music,no anarchy.

then the insurance companys get involved with the thinking if the music is mixed so shitty to be heard at loud levels,they wont be paying out the bucks when junior reaches adulthood to pay for aids or surgery to restore his hearing.

the only flaw in their devious plans,is forgetting that kids at that age are more than likely so tolerant to pain that they dont notice this white noise interference being blasted at them by these mixes.

and if they did realize what was going on with these mixes,and how annoying it was to those in authority around them they would probably be inclined to turn it up even louder.

- )

RSR

mancore wrote:

the stupid thing is a radio station can play jeremy and wws back to back and they will be the same volume due to the compression all broadcasters will use anyway.

lol ... very true

but WWS and big wave seem to be the only song on the album with terribly obvious distortion ... even Comatos, which is 10 times harder doesn't have as much distortion

blah - you can't go back once it's been committed to CD and millions of copies distributed to the public ... realistically, I don't think most people notice or care unelss they are engineers - it is a shame though, because the sound otheriwise is rather good and has a lot of depth compared to no code, yield and binaural

But, it's the message and the musicality that count - the message in this new album is potent, and the musicality is nothing short of top notch
R

RSR

maybe the master limiter was reversed a bit for the LP?

RSR

For the record, if anyone cares/is listening, most digital gear (especially the home studio stuff) is designed to run at 0dBU which is around -18dBFS - it's here that you will get the most clarity and depth out of a recording-in-the-making - and it will absolutely ensure that you won't clip your digital gear during the recording process

0.2 cents

RSR

whats one of the first acts of rebellion a child makes when he's coming into his own,an act that leads to years of hassles between the child and his parental unit?

cranking the stereo.

lol - so true

harrisonmerwin

just my advice

whenever recording (digitally) allways pre-set the volumes at minus 10db below unity. This gives you excellent headroom, and if you have a good strong signal going in, when you mix it all, your loudest peak shouldnt be past +2 or +3 unity. This makes for a foolproof method to avoid clipping and causing digidistortion. Its real easy in protools, just open the mix window, arm the tracks, and drag the level down to -10 prior recording.

enharmonic

BinFrog wrote:

The best example of clipping on the new album is the first few measures of Marker In The Sand. The final mixdown engineer for that song should be arrested.

Its not the mix. It's the mastering.

harrisonmerwin

enharmonic wrote:

Its not the mix. It's the mastering.

its the recording, they were excited and didnt check there hot levels, its where clipping occours, or...they recorded the stuff WAY low and when they turned it up the digital "ghost" came out of them. Either way, fairly amatuer moves so im suspecting it was most likely on purpose. notice its only the guitars and voice. the drums dont sound like they have been tampered with, but another reason is that drum levels are crucial and very closely monitored. Couldve been that the practise takes were the best takes (which happens) and the levels werent properly adjusted. thats another explanation. im gonna go with that one.

enharmonic

harrisonmerwin wrote:

its the recording, they were excited and didnt check there hot levels, its where clipping occours, or...they recorded the stuff WAY low and when they turned it up the digital "ghost" came out of them. Either way, fairly amatuer moves so im suspecting it was most likely on purpose. notice its only the guitars and voice. the drums dont sound like they have been tampered with, but another reason is that drum levels are crucial and very closely monitored. Couldve been that the practise takes were the best takes (which happens) and the levels werent properly adjusted. thats another explanation. im gonna go with that one.

I seriously doubt it was the recording. These guys have been recording for nearly 20 years. We're not talking about some garage band from Iowa here.

The album was produced and mixed by Adam Kasper and Pearl Jam at Studio X in Seattle, Washington. That's an SSL 4000 room with Studer machines if memory serves. No digital crunchies there.

acutejam

Well, Rush has been recording for 30+ years and it totally happened to them, but they claimed "Practice Sessions were best takes" and they recorded Vapor Trails over a 18 month period. They totally acknowledged that it happened, that they were heartsick at it, and just couldn't bring themselves to do anything about it after nearly 2 years in the making.

hey! It's even in Wiki! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapor_Trails

Eh, the boots are sweet so no biggie really, but it's a shame. I'm waiting for an interviewer to ask 'em about it!

enharmonic

acutejam wrote:

Well, Rush has been recording for 30+ years and it totally happened to them, but they claimed "Practice Sessions were best takes" and they recorded Vapor Trails over a 2-year period. They totally acknowledged that it happened, that they were heartsick at it, and just couldn't bring themselves to do anything about it after 2.5 years in the making.

Eh, the boots are sweet so no biggie really, but it's a shame. I'm waiting for an interviewer to ask 'em about it!

That's because Geddy Lee recorded it, and he's got a tin ear. funny, so many people buy a protools rig and suddenly believe themselves to be capable of making a record. There's a big difference between being an amazing musician, and a competent recording engineer.

Adam Kaspar > Geddy Lee behind a console...any hour...any day.

harrisonmerwin

enharmonic wrote:

I seriously doubt it was the recording. These guys have been recording for nearly 20 years. We're not talking about some garage band from Iowa here.

The album was produced and mixed by Adam Kasper and Pearl Jam at Studio X in Seattle, Washington. That's an SSL 4000 room with Studer machines if memory serves. No digital crunchies there.

duh! excuse my ignorance

pearl jam would have recorded to tape, then taken it from tape to digital for the editing/mastering process, in which case the digi-distortion would have fall in between the data conversion (analog>digital) and the final mastering. So chances are they could reproduce the record assumign the tape files are fine. I believe they keep there stuff on beta-8'?