how to determine the key of a song?

MLC2006

I've always just assumed the key of a song is the first chord of the song, but recently heard that it is usually the last chord of the chorus which may or may not be the same as first chord of the song. are either of these correct?

also, when playing a solo, should the solo be of the same key as the song, or a relative key? for example, I've assumed that "Alive" is in the key of A, but it appears that the guitar solo is in the key of Em. but, "Yellow Ledbetter", I believe the song and solo both are in the key of E. so what is correct when determining what key to put a solo in?

Pearl Jam and toast

Alive's chorus is in Gmajor (/eminor), and the solo is played over the chorus.

first chord played is usually a good rule of thumb.

Echoes

In short, you just find the chords that a song is in, and then find out which key contains those chords. For example a song in the key of A could contain any of the following chords
A Major
B Minor
C# Minor
D Major
E Major
F# Minor
G# Diminished

coicidentally these are also the chords in the key of F# Minor, but that is another thing entirely (although not that hard to under stand - 3 intervals down from a major key is its relative minor - I think. I just take C and do the math to Am - arguable the most popular major and minor keys) There are a good deal of other scales and keys as well (the greek modes) but knowing major and minor is pretty much all you need for rock.

as for the "first chord in a song argument" - depends what progression they are using, and since most progressions do start with the root (I), the first chord is frequesntly the key it is in. But soloing in the relative minor is a doable thing too, since it is really just the same scale (ie, Em and G are the exact same scales but with different start/end points), and I'm sure lots of people do that in rock too

Pearl Jam and toast

Echoes wrote:

Am - arguable the most popular major and minor keys) There are a good deal of other scales and keys as well (the greek modes) but knowing major and minor is pretty much all you need for rock.

I dunno... Gmajor gives it a good run

i agree bout the other part too.

echoes wrote:

as for the "first chord in a song argument" - depends what progression they are using, and since most progressions do start with the root (I), the first chord is frequesntly the key it is in. But soloing in the relative minor is a doable thing too, since it is really just the same scale (ie, Em and G are the exact same scales but with different start/end points), and I'm sure lots of people do that in rock too

mmhm.

MLC2006

ok then, with the relative major/minor formula, with "Yellow Ledbetter" being in the key of E, this means that the solo is in the key of C#, correct? I know the YL solo version that I play is in C#. so if this is correct, how does the relative major/minor formula work for "Alive"? the solo in that song seems to me to be in the key of A. so if the solo is in the key of A, what key is the song in?

MLC2006

here's another that seems that it's pretty easy..."No Excuses" by Alice In Chains. the song appears to be in the key of A. so moving backward 3 notes in the relative key formula puts the solo in the key of F#. is this correct?

also, if the song is in a major key and moved backwards 3 notes, that gives the relative minor. so if the song is in a minor key and moved FORWARD 3 notes, is that the major key?

harrisonmerwin

yellow ledbetter is the key of E, through and through, no questions asked.

Echoes

http://www.free-online-piano-lessons.com/scale-tone-chords-triads.html

this is handy if you really don't want to think about it

MLC2006

harrisonmerwin wrote:

yellow ledbetter is the key of E, through and through, no questions asked.

the verse and chorus is in the key of E, no question. but the solo is in the key of C#, just as I had a guessed. at least in the "relative key" mode. in the major scale mode, I'm sure it is or should be in the E scale.

MLC2006

Echoes wrote:

http://www.free-online-piano-lessons.com/scale-tone-chords-triads.html

this is handy if you really don't want to think about it

I appreciate that. thanks.

Echoes

MLC2006 wrote:

the verse and chorus is in the key of E, no question. but the solo is in the key of C#, just as I had a guessed. at least in the "relative key" mode. in the major scale mode, I'm sure it is or should be in the E scale.

C# minor contains the same notes as E Major, so yeah, you are correct.

likepilateihaveadog

in elementary school band, it was always the last note of the song.

those songs weren't too complex though...

moster78

Echoes wrote:

C# minor contains the same notes as E Major, so yeah, you are correct.

C# is E's relative minor. I was playing STP's Interstate Love Song in a lesson once and my teacher was asking me what key it was in. So I said C#m because thats the first chord played in the verse and chorus. He said I was sort of correct. The song is in E, but since C# is the relative minor that I was close.

Pearl Jam and toast

MLC2006 wrote:

here's another that seems that it's pretty easy..."No Excuses" by Alice In Chains. the song appears to be in the key of A. so moving backward 3 notes in the relative key formula puts the solo in the key of F#. is this correct?

also, if the song is in a major key and moved backwards 3 notes, that gives the relative minor. so if the song is in a minor key and moved FORWARD 3 notes, is that the major key?

No excuses is definetly in Dmajor (/Bminor).

I'm a bit confused about the rest of your question, but then again i'm not too up on my theory talk.

if you explain it more i could tell you

who's_pearljam?

Most of the time, the key of the song is the first chord of the verse, not counting the intro if it's a little offbeat. It's also usually the last chord too, if it's the same as the first chord, and in most music, it WILL be the same.
As a chord progression runs on, it usually "resolves" to a final chord that gives that "ahhh" finality to the progression.
Yellow Ledbetter starts on E, then B then A. If it didn't go back to E again,,, it wouldn't resolve, and everyone would be waiting for that last chord before they would leave the show!

You can solo in the same key as the song. If the song is in E, you can add interest by starting the solo with the C# note and soloing in C#. instead of starting on E, it adds interest. Same notes, just a different starting point.
As an example, Jimmy Page pays a lot of solos starting that way, among a whole lot of other scale modes he plays in.


E F# G# A B C# D# E = E major scale
C# D# E F# G# A B C# = C# minor scale

who's_pearljam?

MLC2006 wrote:

also, if the song is in a major key and moved backwards 3 notes, that gives the relative minor. so if the song is in a minor key and moved FORWARD 3 notes, is that the major key?

That is correct, sir!